How much do the rich make, pay in taxes, and how much more can they pay?

Carthoris

Well-Known Member
We can talk solely about the Bush tax cuts if you want... They cost 2 Trillion in lost revenues and we had to borrow (paying INTEREST!) in order to afford these cuts... How do you feel about that? You consider youself a deficit hawk? Then you should be on board to repeal the Bush Tax cuts, because it will only continue to force us into borrowing more money...

The mental gymnastics involved in conservative anti-tax rhetoric is worthy of a Gold medal, IMO... If nothing else, they've succeeded in making sure this zombie idea will never die.

edit: for those who didn't get the reference, Zombie Economics
I would do away with tax cuts, and spending. We could cut a trillion a year from our budget without hitting any flesh. The tax cuts only cut 160 billion in taxes a year. Obama blew that much bombing Libya this year. I would remove the tax cuts, however, shut down all the wars, cut defense budget by 1/3. Cut social spending by 1/3, and then dump all the foreign aid and bullshit. DOE would be gone. Welfare would be a 'work for help' program. Basically the government will give you a job if you want money. Someone has to build roads, file papers, and ect. EIC gone. These things are not the federal governments job. They are YOUR job, and the state governments.


Also, your entire premise that taxes aren't as high in the US is a grey area type comment to begin with. In order for you to directly compare our country, you would have to take all the healthcare costs payed by employers and add them to our tax revenue. All Union fees and everything. It is an almost impossible task. Every thing other countries pay for that we pay for privately would have to be included. Why would anyone feel better about taking away something they pay for and having the government pay for it for them, only to raise their taxes to pay for it. Either way you pay for the same thing. It isn't magical money. The biggest thing is - do you think you live a lower quality of life in the USA than someone in Norway does? If so, Why? I guarantee that any answer you could give is representative of YOUR life, and YOUR choices and not the country as a whole.
 

Carthoris

Well-Known Member
You dont know how to invest? And if so, would revising your investment strategy yeild greater revenues? Do you grow/sell weed? If you cant raise your income, that's mostly YOUR fault... The economy is shitty, and that's not your fault but to say you cant get revenues up isn't true in most cases... Unless you're retired or disabled I dont see "My revenue is fixed" as a legit answer. Inflation can be worked around, ask NoDrama he knows all about hedging his wealth against inflation...

The government relies on tax revenue to provide it's services; Compared to other countries of whom have similar government spending structures we dont tax corporations enough... We aren't even middle of the pack! We're near the bottom! If we had high tax rates and we STILL had deficits, THAT's a spending problem but to ignore that a good portion of our deficit and debt is actually the direct result of lost tax revenue is just being a hopeless idealogue with an agenda to starve the beast - not a legitimate defiicit hawk, and not someone who cares about the economic consequences of mass cuts in the first place.

I mean, if we cut everything that you wanted to cut it'd spark a Great Depression... Then what? You think the libertarian pixie is gonna come and sprinkle her dust?
The bubble popped, and instead of letting it deflate and keeping another bubble from forming we are going to pump air into it and try to keep the bubble full, knowing that the hole is still there? You know what bubbles are full of? A whole lot of nothing. The recession was the markets way of returning to real value instead of an inflated one that while it looks better, is empty. Kudos to the government for trying to make the bottom further down in 10 years when it 'pops' again.
 

olylifter420

Well-Known Member
what about big corporate companies?

this is all i got to say

1) Exxon Mobil made $19 billion in profits in 2009. Exxon not only paid no federal income taxes, it actually received a $156 million rebate from the IRS, according to its SEC filings. (Source: Exxon Mobil's 2009 shareholder report filed with the SEC here.)

2) Bank of America received a $1.9 billion tax refund from the IRS last year, although it made $4.4 billion in profits and received a bailout from the Federal Reserve and the Treasury Department of nearly $1 trillion. (Source: Forbes.com here, ProPublica here and Treasury here.)

3) General Electric made $26 billion in profits in the United States over the past five years and, thanks to clever use of loopholes, paid no taxes.(Source: Citizens for Tax Justice here and The New York Times here. Note: despite rumors to the contrary, the Times has stood by its story.)

4) Chevron received a $19 million refund from the IRS last year after it made $10 billion in profits in 2009. (Source: See 2009 Chevron annual report here. Note 15 on page FS-46 of this report shows a U.S. federal income tax liability of $128 million, but that it was able to defer $147 million for a U.S. federal income tax liability of negative $19 million.)

5) Boeing, which received a $30 billion contract from the Pentagon to build 179 airborne tankers, got a $124 million refund from the IRS last year. (Source: Paul Buchheit, professor, DePaul University, here and Citizens for Tax Justice here.)

6) Valero Energy, the 25th largest company in America with $68 billion in sales last year, received a $157 million tax refund check from the IRS and, over the past three years, received a $134 million tax break from the oil and gas manufacturing tax deduction. (Source: the company's 2009 annual report, pg. 112, here.)

7) Goldman Sachs in 2008 only paid 1.1 percent of its income in taxes even though it earned a profit of $2.3 billion and received an almost $800 billion from the Federal Reserve and U.S. Treasury Department. (Source: Bloomberg News here, ProPublica here, Treasury Department here.)

8) Citigroup last year made more than $4 billion in profits but paid no federal income taxes. It received a $2.5 trillion bailout from the Federal Reserve and U.S. Treasury. (Source: Paul Buchheit, professor, DePaul University, here, ProPublica here, Treasury Department here.)

9) ConocoPhillips, the fifth largest oil company in the United States, made $16 billion in profits from 2006 through 2009, but received $451 million in tax breaks through the oil and gas manufacturing deduction. (Sources: Profits can be found here. The deduction can be found on the company's 2010 SEC 10-K report to shareholders on 2009 finances, pg. 127, here.)

10) Carnival Cruise Lines made more than $11 billion in profits over the past five years, but its federal income tax rate during those years was just 1.1 percent. (Source: The New York Times here.)


http://www.lifeslittlemysteries.com/which-10-giant-corporations-dont-pay-taxes-1587/

My thoughts.

About 140 million people file tax returns in the US. They pay 19% overall to the federal government of every dollar made. How can roughly 1/5th of everything made not be enough to pay for our needs as a country? That doesn't even count all the other revenues the government gets. Income tax is only 1/3 of the equation. They spend the other 2/3s too and still don't have enough to keep the government going! Keep in mind all this is just to balance the budget, never mind that there is trillions in debt that we owe on top of it.

I think I have conclusively shown that the rich can not shoulder the entire burden. So, what is the solution? Is there a solution that our politicians will seriously consider? What happens if we just shrug off our responsibility to fix the issue and let the next generation take it up? At what point will it not be able to be put off and what will the consequences be?
 

Carthoris

Well-Known Member
You dont know how to invest? And if so, would revising your investment strategy yeild greater revenues? Do you grow/sell weed? If you cant raise your income, that's mostly YOUR fault... The economy is shitty, and that's not your fault but to say you cant get revenues up isn't true in most cases... Unless you're retired or disabled I dont see "My revenue is fixed" as a legit answer. Inflation can be worked around, ask NoDrama he knows all about hedging his wealth against inflation...

The government relies on tax revenue to provide it's services; Compared to other countries of whom have similar government spending structures we dont tax corporations enough... We aren't even middle of the pack! We're near the bottom! If we had high tax rates and we STILL had deficits, THAT's a spending problem but to ignore that a good portion of our deficit and debt is actually the direct result of lost tax revenue is just being a hopeless idealogue with an agenda to starve the beast - not a legitimate defiicit hawk, and not someone who cares about the economic consequences of mass cuts in the first place.

I mean, if we cut everything that you wanted to cut it'd spark a Great Depression... Then what? You think the libertarian pixie is gonna come and sprinkle her dust?
I hope she looks and acts like the little green fairy in Moulin Rouge. Id glue that bitch to the wall.
 

Carthoris

Well-Known Member
what about big corporate companies?

this is all i got to say

1) Exxon Mobil made $19 billion in profits in 2009. Exxon not only paid no federal income taxes, it actually received a $156 million rebate from the IRS, according to its SEC filings. (Source: Exxon Mobil's 2009 shareholder report filed with the SEC here.)

2) Bank of America received a $1.9 billion tax refund from the IRS last year, although it made $4.4 billion in profits and received a bailout from the Federal Reserve and the Treasury Department of nearly $1 trillion. (Source: Forbes.com here, ProPublica here and Treasury here.)

3) General Electric made $26 billion in profits in the United States over the past five years and, thanks to clever use of loopholes, paid no taxes.(Source: Citizens for Tax Justice here and The New York Times here. Note: despite rumors to the contrary, the Times has stood by its story.)

4) Chevron received a $19 million refund from the IRS last year after it made $10 billion in profits in 2009. (Source: See 2009 Chevron annual report here. Note 15 on page FS-46 of this report shows a U.S. federal income tax liability of $128 million, but that it was able to defer $147 million for a U.S. federal income tax liability of negative $19 million.)

5) Boeing, which received a $30 billion contract from the Pentagon to build 179 airborne tankers, got a $124 million refund from the IRS last year. (Source: Paul Buchheit, professor, DePaul University, here and Citizens for Tax Justice here.)

6) Valero Energy, the 25th largest company in America with $68 billion in sales last year, received a $157 million tax refund check from the IRS and, over the past three years, received a $134 million tax break from the oil and gas manufacturing tax deduction. (Source: the company's 2009 annual report, pg. 112, here.)

7) Goldman Sachs in 2008 only paid 1.1 percent of its income in taxes even though it earned a profit of $2.3 billion and received an almost $800 billion from the Federal Reserve and U.S. Treasury Department. (Source: Bloomberg News here, ProPublica here, Treasury Department here.)

8) Citigroup last year made more than $4 billion in profits but paid no federal income taxes. It received a $2.5 trillion bailout from the Federal Reserve and U.S. Treasury. (Source: Paul Buchheit, professor, DePaul University, here, ProPublica here, Treasury Department here.)

9) ConocoPhillips, the fifth largest oil company in the United States, made $16 billion in profits from 2006 through 2009, but received $451 million in tax breaks through the oil and gas manufacturing deduction. (Sources: Profits can be found here. The deduction can be found on the company's 2010 SEC 10-K report to shareholders on 2009 finances, pg. 127, here.)

10) Carnival Cruise Lines made more than $11 billion in profits over the past five years, but its federal income tax rate during those years was just 1.1 percent. (Source: The New York Times here.)


http://www.lifeslittlemysteries.com/which-10-giant-corporations-dont-pay-taxes-1587/
That is a separate issue and I agree wholeheartedly that they should be paying taxes. I did not address it in my post because that was not the thing I was discussing.
 

olylifter420

Well-Known Member
well i thought it was relevant to the topic of discussion.

If you'd like, i will remove it from your thread..



That is a separate issue and I agree wholeheartedly that they should be paying taxes. I did not address it in my post because that was not the thing I was discussing.
 

mame

Well-Known Member
We could cut a trillion a year from our budget without hitting any flesh
No, you couldn't... a Trillion dollars in immediate cuts would cause a Great Depression.
 

redivider

Well-Known Member
How could Canada be considered in the same class as the United States? Their population is 1/10th the size of us. Their number one export is oil. They are not comparable to us. They only exist because we are here to keep Mexico from invading them lol. They are more like Norway than the US.

Taxes should be the same for everyone across the board. All businesses should pay the same tax percent. We would not lower taxes until the debt problem was fixed. 1/3 of our total revenue as a country comes from income tax. Our founding fathers outlawed income tax for a reason. It wasn't an accident. They also restricted the government. If the government wasn't trying to police the world and take care of every body there would be no deficit and no need for taxes at the levels they are.

Maybe it is just me, but my spending never goes above my income. I know that if I spend money, eventually I will have to pay for it. So when my car breaks down or I need new tires, I don't charge them, I save for them in advance. I pay for insurance to cover my health, life, house, car, ect. I do it because I want to be proactive about it. I don't charge it and then go try and get a higher paying job because I don't have enough money to pay for it. Our government knows how much money it will have EVERY year. Why wouldn't they just make the budget what the income is? Then, if programs aren't getting payed for they can raise taxes if the people deem it necessary. However, to expect that half the country not pay taxes at all while using up all the benefits is a pile of bullshit. Why do you think the Government needs to be as big as it is? I would rather see the country default and go bankrupt than continue along this path which ends the same way, with a complete change in the country. Better now than later - why would I expect my children to carry the burden of our poor decisions and of the impending collapse?

Oh, speaking of kids, when I have some in a year or two, my tax burden will be cut in half. That is bullshit. Nothing changes, I make a life choice on my own, and I am rewarded for using more resources of the federal, state, and local governments. That seems real fair. Why would that be? Oh because kids cost money? So do harleys, if I buy a harley will the government pay for it?

The idea that the government is there to take care of you in any way or form is bullshit. Social Security Insurance- ok, I get it. However, if everyone is paying for their own social security then how can there be less going out than coming in? How the hell can that work? Obviously the government can't even make a simple savings account work, they turn it into a bloated pile of shit with somebody on top shoveling money off the side. They turned it into a pyramid scheme where the only way you can get money back is for people under you to pay more than you did. That puts the federal government right up there with Enron for being honest and helpful. Gee, lets do some quick math. If I make 50k a year for 50 years and pay 8 percent to SSI, that is 200k dollars. 78 is the average life span in America. How in the hell can SSI go bankrupt? Because they turned it from insurance into a free for all by the sounds of it. That is without considering the interest!

Given all that, why would anyone ever vote to raise taxes when the Government will just increase spending more if there is less debt per year. Its like giving money to a crackhead.

Once again, why do you think the government needs to spend that much money a year?
here we go. 'there would be no deficit' < that is a lie. there tends to be a deficit during tough economic times. the 'deficit' is in place to ensure a functioning government even during tough economic times. if it wasn't there, then it wouldn't take china or russia invading us for our country to have gone to shit. you MUST understand this, america doesn't just have great work ethic and vast natural resources. our stable functioning government spending a WHOLE LOT OF MONEY ON INFRASTRUCTURE is very much a part of our economic greatness.

secondly, i don't have to say this again do I?? ok, I do. the levels of spending required to maintain a population of a few hundred million people require the availability of tools such as the deficit. you can't compare buying a tire to building a bridge. it is not the same thing, and you have been brainwashed into thinking it is.

third, the government creates budgets according to PAST legislation. that's right. obama right now has to pass budgets that include bush-era policies because government programs normally take a few years to be implemented. this is so if the program is deemed not working they can cancel it BEFORE all the costs are incurred. the process of writing out a budget is sooo much more complicated than looking at your account balance online and figuring out what you want to buy. if it was that easy, they'd do it that way. but it isn't.

the idea that we should let the poor in this country live like animals iss bullshit. take a trip down to mexico. not cabo san lucas, or cancun. go to el paso, cross into Juarez, see what extreme poverty does. people drinking water out of the gutters, children walking barefoot all over the place, people living in homes made out of manure and cardboard, adults in their 20-30s who can't read or write, man..... you should really see what despair and what a government that really doesn't care does for a people.... you would learn a LOT.

why would anyone vote to raise taxes??? BECAUSE COMPANIES AREN'T DOING BAD ANYMORE. COMPANIES ARE POSTING MAJOR PROFITS!!!!! RECORD-BREAKING PROFITS. AND PAYING ZERO TAXES.

the oil industry said that if fuel EVER goes above 50 dollars per barrel they wouldn't need subsidies b/c the profits would be too great. it is around 100 per barrel and they're still fighting tooth and nail to keep the subsidies while we are thinking of reducing the amount of money that would go into funds destined to help young adults get through graduate school, you know, lawyers, doctors, MBAs.... those people...

these guys at the top enjoyed these benefits for a long time and now want to take them away from our nation's future. FUCK THEM.
 

Carthoris

Well-Known Member
well i thought it was relevant to the topic of discussion.

If you'd like, i will remove it from your thread..
Nah, your good. I did my paper at the top and it quickly turned into Mame talking about how we don't tax as much as Europe. After that I am just ranting lol. Welcome to the discussion. I agree with you 100% on what you wrote.
 

Mr Neutron

Well-Known Member
You dont know how to invest?
You mean gamble? Yeah, I wish I could find a good Texas Hold'em game around here.

And if so, would revising your investment strategy yeild greater revenues?
It takes all my income to survive, that's why I moved here. I could not afford to live in my home country without taking welfare (sect 8 housing, food stamps, etc) What little money I have saved, I put into hard assets like silver, not on paper, in my hand.

Do you grow/sell weed?
For someone who is supporting our status quo, why are you advocating illegal activity? Besides, don't you know that the black market/underground economy is depriving your beloved tax system of revenue?
Hell, I can barely find any weed to buy, just to smoke.

If you cant raise your income, that's mostly YOUR fault...
I think you are making a lot of assumptions, so I will give you the opportunity to retract that statement.

Unless you're retired or disabled I dont see "My revenue is fixed" as a legit answer.
I AM retired. I'm living on a monthly income that is less than 75% of what I used to make in a week.

The government relies on tax revenue to provide it's services; Compared to other countries of whom have similar government spending structures we dont tax corporations enough...
1) How did we ever survive those 100+ years of NO income tax?
2) What other countries have military bases all over the world? Are sending troops into "hot" zones at the drop of a hat? Send billions of dollars to every other country, including the worst terrorist nation on the planet, Israel?
Similar government spending structures? I think not.

I mean, if we cut everything that you wanted to cut it'd spark a Great Depression...
That is going to happen anyway. It is going to be worse if we keep "kicking the can down the road" and remain in this state of denial.
 

olylifter420

Well-Known Member
It kind of is really fucked up how these corporate "fat cats" get so many breaks! And they want the lower middle class to pay up or take some of the burden... well, we have been since forever! im no economist, but i dont need to be one to tell that they are full of shit!

We struggle to make a few thousands dollars a year, these fuckers make billions and dont pay one cent, but if we are late on our tax payment if we owe, our ass is grass!

Fucking hypocrites...

Im sorry for ranting, it is just very frustrating..

I have seriously been thinking about getting a real job and paying taxes... fuck the government and the bullshitters they are... id rather grow and make a living off of that then pay for something i had no say in...



Nah, your good. I did my paper at the top and it quickly turned into Mame talking about how we don't tax as much as Europe. After that I am just ranting lol. Welcome to the discussion. I agree with you 100% on what you wrote.
 

olylifter420

Well-Known Member
here is some more interesting stuff that i think you might find resourceful!
1. Poor Americans do pay taxes.

Gretchen Carlson, the Fox News host, said last year &#8220;47 percent of Americans don&#8217;t pay any taxes.&#8221; John McCain and Sarah Palin both said similar things during the 2008 campaign about the bottom half of Americans.

Ari Fleischer, the former Bush White House spokesman, once said &#8220;50 percent of the country gets benefits without paying for them.&#8221;

Actually, they pay lots of taxes&#8212;just not lots of federal income taxes.

Data from the Tax Foundation show that in 2008, the average income for the bottom half of taxpayers was $15,300.

This year the first $9,350 of income is exempt from taxes for singles and $18,700 for married couples, just slightly more than in 2008. That means millions of the poor do not make enough to owe income taxes.

But they still pay plenty of other taxes, including federal payroll taxes. Between gas taxes, sales taxes, utility taxes and other taxes, no one lives tax-free in America.

When it comes to state and local taxes, the poor bear a heavier burden than the rich in every state except Vermont, the Institute on Taxation and Economic Policy calculated from official data. In Alabama, for example, the burden on the poor is more than twice that of the top 1 percent. The one-fifth of Alabama families making less than $13,000 pay almost 11 percent of their income in state and local taxes, compared with less than 4 percent for those who make $229,000 or more.


Credits: WW CHART &#8212; SOURCE: MEDICARE TAX DATABASE; CENSUS
2. The wealthiest Americans don&#8217;t carry the burden.

This is one of those oft-used canards. Sen. Rand Paul, the tea party favorite from Kentucky, told David Letterman recently that &#8220;the wealthy do pay most of the taxes in this country.&#8221;

The Internet is awash with statements that the top 1 percent pays, depending on the year, 38 percent or more than 40 percent of taxes.

It&#8217;s true that the top 1 percent of wage earners paid 38 percent of the federal income taxes in 2008 (the most recent year for which data is available). But people forget that the income tax is less than half of federal taxes and only one-fifth of taxes at all levels of government.

Social Security, Medicare and unemployment insurance taxes (known as payroll taxes) are paid mostly by the bottom 90 percent of wage earners. That&#8217;s because, once you reach $106,800 of income, you pay no more for Social Security, though the much smaller Medicare tax applies to all wages. Warren Buffett pays the exact same amount of Social Security taxes as someone who earns $106,800.


Credits: WW CHART &#8212; SOURCE: SOCIAL SECURITY MEDICARE TAX DATABASE
3. In fact, the wealthy are paying less taxes.

The Internal Revenue Service issues an annual report on the 400 highest income-tax payers. In 1961, there were 398 taxpayers who made $1 million or more, so I compared their income tax burdens from that year to 2007.

Despite skyrocketing incomes, the federal tax burden on the richest 400 has been slashed, thanks to a variety of loopholes, allowable deductions and other tools. The actual share of their income paid in taxes, according to the IRS, is 16.6 percent. Adding payroll taxes barely nudges that number.

Compare that to the vast majority of Americans, whose share of their income going to federal taxes increased from 13.1 percent in 1961 to 22.5 percent in 2007.

(By the way, during seven of the eight George W. Bush years, the IRS report on the top 400 taxpayers was labeled a state secret, a policy that the Obama administration overturned almost instantly after his inauguration.)


Credits: WW CHART &#8212; SOURCE: AUTHOR CALCULATIONS FROM IRS
4. Many of the very richest pay no current income taxes at all.

John Paulson, the most successful hedge-fund manager of all, bet against the mortgage market one year and then bet with Glenn Beck in the gold market the next. Paulson made himself $9 billion in fees in just two years. His current tax bill on that $9 billion? Zero.

Congress lets hedge-fund managers earn all they can now and pay their taxes years from now.

In 2007, Congress debated whether hedge-fund managers should pay the top tax rate that applies to wages, bonuses and other compensation for their labors, which is 35 percent. That tax rate starts at about $300,000 of taxable income&#8212;not even pocket change to Paulson, but almost 12 years of gross pay to the median-wage worker.

The Republicans and a key Democrat, Sen. Charles Schumer of New York, fought to keep the tax rate on hedge-fund managers at 15 percent, arguing that the profits from hedge funds should be considered capital gains, not ordinary income, which got a lot of attention in the news.

What the news media missed is that hedge-fund managers don&#8217;t even pay 15 percent. At least, not currently. So long as they leave their money, known as &#8220;carried interest,&#8221; in the hedge fund, their taxes are deferred. They only pay taxes when they cash out, which could be decades from now for younger managers. How do these hedge-fund managers get money in the meantime? By borrowing against the carried interest, often at absurdly low rates&#8212;currently about 2 percent.

Lots of other people live tax-free, too. I have Donald Trump&#8217;s tax records for four years early in his career. He paid no taxes for two of those years. Big real-estate investors enjoy tax-free living under a 1993 law President Clinton signed. It lets &#8220;professional&#8221; real-estate investors use paper losses like depreciation on their buildings against any cash income, even if they end up with negative incomes like Trump.

Frank and Jamie McCourt, who own the Los Angeles Dodgers, have not paid any income taxes since at least 2004, their divorce case revealed. Yet they spent $45 million one year alone. How? They just borrowed against Dodger ticket revenue and other assets. To the IRS, they look like paupers.

In Wisconsin, Terrence Wall, who unsuccessfully sought the Republican nomination for U.S. Senate in 2010, paid no income taxes on as much as $14 million of recent income, his disclosure forms showed. Asked about his living tax-free while working people pay taxes, he had a simple response: Everyone should pay less.


Credits: WW CHART &#8212; SOURCE: AUTHOR CALCULATIONS FROM IRS
5. And (surprise!) since Reagan, only the wealthy have gained significant income.

The Heritage Foundation, the Cato Institute and similar conservative marketing organizations tell us relentlessly that lower tax rates will make us all better off.

&#8220;When tax rates are reduced, the economy&#8217;s growth rate improves and living standards increase,&#8221; according to Daniel J. Mitchell, an economist at Heritage until he joined Cato. He says that supply-side economics is &#8220;the simple notion that lower tax rates will boost work, saving, investment and entrepreneurship.&#8221;

When Reagan was elected president, the top marginal tax rate (the tax rate paid on the last dollar of income earned) was 70 percent. He cut it to 50 percent and then 28 percent starting in 1987. It was raised by George H.W. Bush and Clinton, and then cut by George W. Bush. The top rate is now 35 percent.

Since 1980, when Reagan won the presidency promising prosperity through tax cuts, the average income of the vast majority&#8212;the bottom 90 percent of Americans&#8212;has increased a meager $303, or 1 percent. Put another way, for each dollar people in the vast majority made in 1980, in 2008 their income was up to $1.01.

Those at the top did better. The top 1 percent&#8217;s average income more than doubled to $1.1 million, according to an analysis of tax data by economists Thomas Piketty and Emmanuel Saez. The really rich, the top one-tenth of 1 percent, each enjoyed almost $4 in 2008 for each dollar in 1980.

The top 300,000 Americans now enjoy almost as much income as the bottom 150 million, the data show.


Credits: WW CHART &#8212; SOURCE: MARTIN SULLIVAN, TAX ANALYSTS ECONOMIST, FROM DATA AT BEA.GOV
6. When it comes to corporations, the story is much the same&#8212;less taxes.

Corporate profits in 2008, the latest year for which data are available, were $1,830 billion, up almost 12 percent from $1,638.7 billion in 2000. Yet, even though corporate tax rates have not been cut, corporate income-tax revenues fell to $230 billion from $249 billion&#8212;an 8 percent decline, thanks to a number of loopholes. The official 2010 profit numbers are not added up and released by the government, but the amount paid in corporate taxes is: In 2010 they fell further, to $191 billion&#8212;a decline of more than 23 percent compared with 2000.


Credits: WW CHART &#8212; SOURCE: IRS
7. Some corporate tax breaks destroy jobs.

Despite all the noise that America has the world&#8217;s second-highest corporate tax rate, the actual taxes paid by corporations are falling because of the growing number of loopholes and companies shifting profits to tax havens like the Cayman Islands.

And right now America&#8217;s corporations are sitting on close to $2 trillion in cash that is not being used to build factories, create jobs or anything else, but acts as an insurance policy for managers unwilling to take the risk of actually building the businesses they are paid so well to run. That cash hoard, by the way, works out to nearly $13,000 per taxpaying household.

A corporate tax rate that is too low actually destroys jobs. That&#8217;s because a higher tax rate encourages businesses (who don&#8217;t want to pay taxes) to keep the profits in the business and reinvest, rather than pull them out as profits and have to pay high taxes.

The 2004 American Jobs Creation Act, which passed with bipartisan support, allowed more than 800 companies to bring profits that were untaxed but overseas back to the United States. Instead of paying the usual 35 percent tax, the companies paid just 5.25 percent.

The companies said bringing the money home&#8212;&#8220;repatriating&#8221; it, they called it&#8212;would mean lots of jobs. Sen. John Ensign, the Nevada Republican, put the figure at 660,000 new jobs.

Pfizer, the drug company, was the biggest beneficiary. It brought home $37 billion, saving $11 billion in taxes. Almost immediately it started firing people. Since the law took effect, Pfizer has let 40,000 workers go. In all, it appears that at least 100,000 jobs were destroyed.

Now Congressional Republicans and some Democrats are gearing up again to pass another tax holiday, promoting a new Jobs Creation Act. It would affect 10 times as much money as the 2004 law.


Credits: WW CHART &#8212; SOURCE: IRS TABLE 1.4 IN 2008 DOLLARS
8. Republicans like taxes too.

President Reagan signed into law 11 tax increases, targeted at people down the income ladder. His administration and the Washington press corps called the increases &#8220;revenue enhancers.&#8221; Reagan raised Social Security taxes so high that by the end of 2008, the government had collected more than $2 trillion in surplus tax.

George W. Bush signed a tax increase, too, in 2006, despite his written ironclad pledge never to raise taxes on anyone. It raised taxes on teenagers by requiring kids up to age 17, who earned money, to pay taxes at their parents&#8217; tax rate, which would almost always be higher than the rate they would otherwise pay. It was a story that ran buried inside The New York Times one Sunday, but nowhere else.

In fact, thanks to Republicans, one in three Americans will pay higher taxes this year than they did last year.

First, some history. In 2009, President Obama pushed his own tax cut&#8212;for the working class. He persuaded Congress to enact the Making Work Pay Tax Credit. Over the two years 2009 and 2010, it saved single workers up to $800 and married heterosexual couples up to $1,600, even if only one spouse worked. The top 5 percent or so of taxpayers were denied this tax break.

The Obama administration called it &#8220;the biggest middle-class tax cut&#8221; ever. Yet last December the Republicans, poised to regain control of the House of Representatives, killed Obama&#8217;s Making Work Pay Credit while extending the Bush tax cuts for two more years&#8212;a policy Obama agreed to.

By doing so, Congressional Republican leaders increased taxes on a third of Americans, virtually all of them the working poor, this year.

As a result, of the 155 million households in the tax system, 51 million will pay an average of $129 more this year. That is $6.6 billion in higher taxes for the working poor, the nonpartisan Tax Policy Center estimated.

In addition, the Republicans changed the rate of workers&#8217; FICA contributions, which finances half of Social Security. The result:

If you are single and make less than $20,000, or married and less than $40,000, you lose under this plan. But the top 5 percent, people who make more than $106,800, will save $2,136 ($4,272 for two-career couples).


Credits: WW CHART &#8212; SOURCE: MEDICARE TAX DATABASE; CENSUS.GOV
9. Other countries do it better.

We measure our economic progress, and our elected leaders debate tax policy, in terms of a crude measure known as gross domestic product. The way the official statistics are put together, each dollar spent buying solar energy equipment counts the same as each dollar spent investigating murders.

We do not give any measure of value to time spent rearing children or growing our own vegetables or to time off for leisure and community service.

And we do not measure the economic damage done by shocks, such as losing a job, which means not only loss of income and depletion of savings, but loss of health insurance, which a Harvard Medical School study found results in 45,000 unnecessary deaths each year.

Compare this to Germany, one of many countries with a smarter tax system and smarter spending policies.

Germans work less, make more per hour and get much better parental leave than Americans, many of whom get no fringe benefits such as health care, pensions or even a retirement savings plan. By many measures the vast majority live better in Germany than in America.

To achieve this, unmarried Germans on average pay 52 percent of their income in taxes. Americans average 30 percent, according to the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development.

At first blush the German tax burden seems horrendous. But in Germany (as well as in Britain, France, Scandinavia, Canada, Australia and Japan), tax-supported institutions provide many of the things Americans pay for with after-tax dollars. Buying wholesale rather than retail saves money.

A proper comparison would take the 30 percent average tax on American workers and add their out-of-pocket spending on health care, college tuition and fees for services, and compare that with taxes that the average German pays. Add it all up and the combination of tax and personal spending is roughly equal in both countries, but with a large risk of catastrophic loss in America, and a tiny risk in Germany.

Americans take on $85 billion of debt each year for higher education, while college is financed by taxes in Germany and tuition is cheap to free in other modern countries. While soaring medical costs are a key reason that since 1980 bankruptcy in America has increased 15 times faster than population growth, no one in Germany or the rest of the modern world goes broke because of accident or illness. And child poverty in America is the highest among modern countries&#8212;almost twice the rate in Germany, which is close to the average of modern countries.

On the corporate tax side, the Germans encourage reinvestment at home and the outsourcing of low-value work, like auto assembly, and German rules tightly control accounting so that profits earned at home cannot be made to appear as profits earned in tax havens.

Adopting the German system is not the answer for America. But crafting a tax system that benefits the vast majority, reduces risks, provides universal health care and focuses on diplomacy rather than militarism abroad (and at home) would be a lot smarter than what we have now.

Here is a question to ask yourself: We started down this road with Reagan&#8217;s election in 1980 and upped the ante in this century with George W. Bush.

How long does it take to conclude that a policy has failed to fulfill its promises? And as you think of that, keep in mind George Washington. When he fell ill his doctors followed the common wisdom of the era. They cut him and bled him to remove bad blood. As Washington&#8217;s condition grew worse, they bled him more. And like the mantra of tax cuts for the rich, they kept applying the same treatment until they killed him.

Luckily we don&#8217;t bleed the sick anymore, but we are bleeding our government to death.


Credits: WW CHART &#8212; SOURCES: OMB; CENSUS.GOV; BEA.GOV; CALCULATIONS BY AUTHOR



David Cay Johnston is a columnist for tax.com and teaches the tax, property and regulatory law of the ancient world at Syracuse University College of Law and Whitman School of Management. He has also been called the &#8220;de facto chief tax enforcement officer of the United States&#8221; because his reporting in The New York Times shut down many tax dodges and schemes, just two of them valued by Congress at $260 billion. Johnston received a 2001 Pulitzer Prize for exposing tax loopholes and inequities. He wrote two bestsellers on taxes, Perfectly Legal and Free Lunch. Later this year, Johnston will be out with a new book, The Fine Print, revealing how big business, with help from politicians, abuses plain English to rob you blind.


http://wweek.com/portland/article-17350-9_things_the_rich_dont_want_you_to_know_about_taxes.html
 

mame

Well-Known Member
So I had this great post, and it got eaten by the internet monster... QQ.

But I want to touch on this, because I think it's important for people to understand the economics of the issue:
Oh, speaking of kids, when I have some in a year or two, my tax burden will be cut in half. That is bullshit. Nothing changes, I make a life choice on my own, and I am rewarded for using more resources of the federal, state, and local governments. That seems real fair. Why would that be? Oh because kids cost money? So do harleys, if I buy a harley will the government pay for it?
This is a part of progressive taxation. Those who spend the biggest share of their income on things they need are the biggest sources of aggregate demand and so taxing them( so poor people mostly,lower-middle class parents, old people in the case of medical care, etc) is a bigger drag on the economy than taxing those who spend a lower portion of their income (wealthy people). Demand creates jobs and the best way to boost demand through tax policy is by targetting the groups who spend all the money, basically. That's why poor people pay very little or no income taxes, it's why parents get a child credit, etc etc. Economically, progressive taxation is a necessity, not just because of the benefits to output but for it's benefits to stability. In a market economy, the natural tendency of money is to move into the hands of an elite few - in other words, income inequality is a natural phenomenon of a market economy... And it happens to cause market volatility over time. Progressive taxation fights against rising income inequality and against market volatility, and that is why every advanced nation has some form of progressive tax code.
 

olylifter420

Well-Known Member
Link please, if not , i call bullshit



So I had this great post, and it got eaten by the internet monster... QQ.

But I want to touch on this, because I think it's important for people to understand the economics of the issue:

This is a part of progressive taxation. Those who spend the biggest share of their income on things they need are the biggest sources of aggregate demand and so taxing them( so poor people mostly,lower-middle class parents, old people in the case of medical care, etc) is a bigger drag on the economy than taxing those who spend a lower portion of their income (wealthy people). Demand creates jobs and the best way to boost demand through tax policy is by targetting the groups who spend all the money, basically. That's why poor people pay very little or no income taxes, it's why parents get a child credit, etc etc. Economically, progressive taxation is a necessity, not just because of the benefits to output but for it's benefits to stability. In a market economy, the natural tendency of money is to move into the hands of an elite few - in other words, income inequality is a natural phenomenon of a market economy... And it happens to cause market volatility over time. Progressive taxation fights against rising income inequality and against market volatility, and that is why every advanced nation has some form of progressive tax code.
 

Carthoris

Well-Known Member
No, you couldn't... a Trillion dollars in immediate cuts would cause a Great Depression.
Doubtful. We could cut half of it from the military. DOE is 120 billion and does what exactly? State and local taxes pay for most of it. There is over 600 billion. 60 billion in federal food stamps could be cut down dramatically. Probably 50 billion of it while still performing the same basic service. They wouldn't have to be immediate, you could cut them in every year for 5 years. 200 billion a year isn't much of a cut. If we can't afford the things we are doing, we have to stop doing them. The simply fact is spending must go down - one way or another. Whether it be because we don't have any money left, or because we do it on purpose. They both result in the same thing.
 

mame

Well-Known Member
And another thing people are forgetting is that bending the curve is more economically viable...

I mean, the economy is bound to grow over the next 20 years right? That's why we do everything in percentages... stupid talking points like "lol the government is only going to expand 7 trillion instead of 10 trillion stupid fucks!" really dont make any sense once you consider economic growth, revenues and spending all together... Why is that so hard? Why can't we raise revenues, reform our social programs and focus on a growth agenda (jobs) all together to work on our fiscal issues? It doesn't have to be cuts cuts cuts now now now - and it shouldn't be - because it's not economically responsible.

edit: I agree that we spend far too much on our military, but that's about where our agreement likely ends it seems.
 

Carthoris

Well-Known Member
here we go. 'there would be no deficit' < that is a lie. there tends to be a deficit during tough economic times. the 'deficit' is in place to ensure a functioning government even during tough economic times. if it wasn't there, then it wouldn't take china or russia invading us for our country to have gone to shit. you MUST understand this, america doesn't just have great work ethic and vast natural resources. our stable functioning government spending a WHOLE LOT OF MONEY ON INFRASTRUCTURE is very much a part of our economic greatness.
Our economic greatness is almost entirely due to the USA having the only factories in the world after WW2. No other reason.
secondly, i don't have to say this again do I?? ok, I do. the levels of spending required to maintain a population of a few hundred million people require the availability of tools such as the deficit. you can't compare buying a tire to building a bridge. it is not the same thing, and you have been brainwashed into thinking it is.
You can say it as many times as you want, that doesn't make it a fact. Deficits should only be run when you have to run them, not in the day to day operations for decades on end.
third, the government creates budgets according to PAST legislation. that's right. obama right now has to pass budgets that include bush-era policies because government programs normally take a few years to be implemented. this is so if the program is deemed not working they can cancel it BEFORE all the costs are incurred. the process of writing out a budget is sooo much more complicated than looking at your account balance online and figuring out what you want to buy. if it was that easy, they'd do it that way. but it isn't.
Thats why there are thousands of people doing it for us, albeit poorly. It is not as complicated as people make it out, its just large. The simple fact is that the government spends more than it has because it is allowed to, not because it needs to.
the idea that we should let the poor in this country live like animals iss bullshit. take a trip down to mexico. not cabo san lucas, or cancun. go to el paso, cross into Juarez, see what extreme poverty does. people drinking water out of the gutters, children walking barefoot all over the place, people living in homes made out of manure and cardboard, adults in their 20-30s who can't read or write, man..... you should really see what despair and what a government that really doesn't care does for a people.... you would learn a LOT.
Having spent real time in Mexico with family that lives there and is very poor. I call bullshit. They don't live like animals. They don't have air conditioning, flat screen tvs, or gold watches, glass windows, or drinkable water but they aren't animals. Would you consider tribesmen animals too? Your problem is you don't understand the cultures you are using as an example. Also, our poor didn't live like animals before welfare. They had to work and survive, but they weren't animals. Come to think of it... hey.. aren't we all animals? I would probably trade the life in this world we live in for one tens of thousands of years ago hunting and being nomadic. The time is coming soon where our entire population in the world couldn't live at the level of the poor in Mexico.
why would anyone vote to raise taxes??? BECAUSE COMPANIES AREN'T DOING BAD ANYMORE. COMPANIES ARE POSTING MAJOR PROFITS!!!!! RECORD-BREAKING PROFITS. AND PAYING ZERO TAXES.
I was quite plainly talking about income tax, I agree that companies should be paying taxes. Stop arguing with yourself.
the oil industry said that if fuel EVER goes above 50 dollars per barrel they wouldn't need subsidies b/c the profits would be too great. it is around 100 per barrel and they're still fighting tooth and nail to keep the subsidies while we are thinking of reducing the amount of money that would go into funds destined to help young adults get through graduate school, you know, lawyers, doctors, MBAs.... those people...
Once again, you are making up an argument and trying to support it. I never said that oil companies shouldn't pay taxes
these guys at the top enjoyed these benefits for a long time and now want to take them away from our nation's future. FUCK THEM.
 

deprave

New Member
The solution is to end the wars and to reform programs with newer and better programs. The Democrats are hypocrites, they say they are about taxing to the rich and giving to the poor, simply not true, they stand with the large corporations alongside the republicans. The democrats say they are for the middle class, again not true, they damage the middle class more then even the republicans even considering 'Union Busting' and so called 'Union Busting'. The answer my friends is progress, real progress, not 'progressive' 'progress' nor is it 'fiscal sanity' - Its liberty and freedom - its a restoration of the republic. The answer is with us, the people, its not with the politicians that can't do anything right.
 

WillyBagseed

Active Member
Do some math and see what happens to the deficit if we got rid of the Bush tax cuts, went back to Pre Reagan tax rates and closed all the incentives NAFTA gives corporations to move production off shore (corporate welfare on 'roids). We would also do better if we had real news instead of infotainment but the Telecom bill in the '90s took care of real news.

Seems to me we did just fine from the 1950's - 1978 ( until JC jumped on the dereg bandwagon)

Many people think the USA did just fine 1980 - present and many did........... MAXING out their credit cards. Can't sustain living like that.
 
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