How much protection do you think the new rulings give us?

you ARE INNOCENT until proven Guilty, they like to use the word "PRESUMED" before the word innocent, as that conveys they are guilty. unless they can prove innocence. that is NOT how our Judicial works.

again this comes down to perception.

Timmahh said:

you ARE INNOCENT until proven Guilty, they like to use the word "PRESUMED" before the word innocent, as that conveys they are guilty. unless they can prove innocence. that is NOT how our Judicial works.

again this comes down to perception.

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It's just semantics....not worth arguing

I think this will help stop judges from denying patients a medical defense...but I'm not a lawyer, so what do I know.

All of the courts have to fall in line with the supreme courts interpretation - there is no option.

jonnynobody said:

All of the courts have to fall in line with the supreme courts interpretation - there is no option.

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Correct. And it will allow the defense to be presented. arrests will decline too. A clear message was sent to stop busting people in compliance.

It's a very good thing.

But the cops will test the rulings. I see an "intent to over manufacture" case on the horizon. Some poor guy thinking everything is good so long as he's in the limits of section 4. Can't arrest me. Nope supreme Court said so.

But the cop is gonna stumble on a totally legal grow..as the law is written, and bust the guy anyhow.

Why? All 12 plants were at end stage flower. Cops point of view? Intent to over manufacture. Why can he now try this new approach to bust you? Because now section 4 and section 8 are both available. Nothing to fear, so long as you can convince the judge that you need all those plants done at once because it was the reasonable amount for your condition.

I feel some are feeling a little too good about this ruling.

bob harris said:

Correct. And it will allow the defense to be presented. arrests will decline too. A clear message was sent to stop busting people in compliance.

It's a very good thing.

But the cops will test the rulings. I see an "intent to over manufacture" case on the horizon. Some poor guy thinking everything is good so long as he's in the limits of section 4. Can't arrest me. Nope supreme Court said so.

But the cop is gonna stumble on a totally legal grow..as the law is written, and bust the guy anyhow.

Why? All 12 plants were at end stage flower. Cops point of view? Intent to over manufacture. Why can he now try this new approach to bust you? Because now section 4 and section 8 are both available. Nothing to fear, so long as you can convince the judge that you need all those plants done at once because it was the reasonable amount for your condition.

I feel some are feeling a little too good about this ruling.

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12 plants is 12 plants regarless of what stage. Now if he has 12 plants in bloom and 3 in veg, and 3 hanging.... Lucy, we have a Problem..
But if all he has is 12 regardless of what stage, it is a Trier of Law, not of Fact. 12 plants is allowed at any stage.

secondly, you are assuming that LEO is aware by some mystical reason this guy needs an Inspection? that is not allowed per the Act...

Timmahh said:

12 plants is 12 plants regarless of what stage. Now if he has 12 plants in bloom and 3 in veg, and 3 hanging.... Lucy, we have a Problem.. But if all he has is 12, it is a Trier of Law, not of Fact. 12 plants is allowed at any stage. Nextel Done.

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And again, to the letter of the law, you are correct. But as you have so wisely pointed out, INTENT of the law out weighs the letter. The clear intent of the law was to assure un interrupted supply.

These rulings have now co mixed section 8 and section 4. Are you truly so simple that you don't see the down side?

12 plants is 12 plants, again, is ideological thinking. It has to do with what YOU want. Not with the intent of the law. Not with the reality of how this will be played by the opposition. You never anticipate the counter move. And when I do, you cry that I must be one of them.

The Art Of War..read it..learn something. Want to defeat your enemy? learn to think like them, learn to anticipate. You don't do that. You celebrate victory at the point of the diversionary attack. Oblivious to the main force circling your flank.

Yea, you will be screaming foul when someone gets busted in the scenario i outlined..and have done nothing to prevent them from getting busted...actually emboldened them. I'd rather caution them into not being that martyr.

Good chance that a guy in that scenario will get convicted. The Supreme Court may even back it. After all, the intent of the law IS an uninterrupted supply. A reasonable one at that. No provision for storage. No I only grow 1 batch a year exception. so again, now that the SC has ruled that 4 and 8 co mingle...what makes you so sure that "reasonable" amount dosen't get expanded to include "reasonable expectation of yeild"?

You really don't get big picture thought, do you?

bob harris said:

And again, to the letter of the law, you are correct. But as you have so wisely pointed out, INTENT of the law out weighs the letter. The clear intent of the law was to assure un interrupted supply.

These rulings have now co mixed section 8 and section 4. Are you truly so simple that you don't see the down side?

12 plants is 12 plants, again, is ideological thinking. It has to do with what YOU want. Not with the intent of the law. Not with the reality of how this will be played by the opposition. You never anticipate the counter move. And when I do, you cry that I must be one of them.

The Art Of War..read it..learn something. Want to defeat your enemy? learn to think like them, learn to anticipate. You don't do that. You celebrate victory at the point of the diversionary attack. Oblivious to the main force circling your flank.

Yea, you will be screaming foul when someone gets busted in the scenario i outlined..and have done nothing to prevent them from getting busted...actually emboldened them. I'd rather caution them into not being that martyr.

Good chance that a guy in that scenario will get convicted. The Supreme Court may even back it. After all, the intent of the law IS an uninterrupted supply. A reasonable one at that. No provision for storage. No I only grow 1 batch a year exception. so again, now that the SC has ruled that 4 and 8 co mingle...what makes you so sure that "reasonable" amount dosen't get expanded to include "reasonable expectation of yeild"?

You really don't get big picture thought, do you?

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oh bob you flatter me. lol how cute.

again, you speak as if you know something, and all you know is what you are TOLD you should know.

please explain how the MSC, which CLEARLY Separate sec 4 from sec 8, "co mingle" as you put it?
clearly if you read the MSC ruling, you did not understand it.

bob you still keep forgetting about probable cause.

and those scenarios you give of "possibly intending to over manufacture"

counting chicken before they hatch a bit?

Timmahh said:

oh bob you flatter me. lol how cute.

again, you speak as if you know something, and all you know is what you are TOLD you should know.

please explain how the MSC, which CLEARLY Separate sec 4 from sec 8, "co mingle" as you put it?
clearly if you read the MSC ruling, you did not understand it.

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and Timmah is right. as he usually has been.

section 4 and section 8 are separate. VERY separate.

you must NOT do anything of the following in 7(b) and then you can use section 8.

section 4, not needed.

if im right thats a bunus, but if we are all free and educated on what is ALLOWABLE, then we can not be taken advantage of by Ruthless LEO/Government.

I dont care for being right, but when its a what is right issue, i ll happily be correct.

I would rather be Cocky and Correct, than Smug and WRONG and In jail

Timmahh said:

oh bob you flatter me. lol how cute.

again, you speak as if you know something, and all you know is what you are TOLD you should know.

please explain how the MSC, which CLEARLY Separate sec 4 from sec 8, "co mingle" as you put it?
clearly if you read the MSC ruling, you did not understand it.

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not in compliance with 4, can then use 8..co mingled..pretty simple.

tomcatjones said:

bob you still keep forgetting about probable cause.

and those scenarios you give of "possibly intending to over manufacture"

counting chicken before they hatch a bit?

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Not really. "intent to' laws have been around forever. What's to say they can't apply it?

Timmahh said:

if im right thats a bunus, but if we are all free and educated on what is ALLOWABLE, then we can not be taken advantage of by Ruthless LEO/Government.

I dont care for being right, but when its a what is right issue, i ll happily be correct.

I would rather be Cocky and Correct, than Smug and WRONG and In jail

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Then why do you always go with "push the limits"?..that's exactly how you end up in jail.

because working WITH IN the law is WITH IN THE LAW.

Timmahh said:

because working WITH IN the law is WITH IN THE LAW.

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But it's within the law as YOU read the law...not necessarily as the law is read by others, or the intent of the law.

This law was passed for patients. end of story. Wasn't passed for care givers, wasn't passed so people could grow and sell weed.

You advocate "legal" cannabis..not medical. You have little to no respect for the intent of the law.

I have little to no respect for intent also. This state is ran so fucked up. How many people have moved from Michigan? How many years have they wasted dicking with these dumb shit and 63% voted it in. I look at our government leaders as a bunch of fucking clowns all pulling up in front of the capital building in a small vw bug and 25 of them all piling out wearing big shoes, wigs, the whole 9 yards.
I paid several hundred for my card. Mailed my shit in, it took 6 months to get my card that is valid for 12. It's been well over a month for my renewal. They are fucking clowns. Belle got busted. She didn't know the laws, the cop sure as fuck didn't have a clue, the prosecutor, the judge, and her attorney ALL didn't know shit. Still don't!! What exactly is there to respect? What has this state done good in the last decade for it's citizens?

gladstoned said:

I have little to no respect for intent also. This state is ran so fucked up. How many people have moved from Michigan? How many years have they wasted dicking with these dumb shit and 63% voted it in. I look at our government leaders as a bunch of fucking clowns all pulling up in front of the capital building in a small vw bug and 25 of them all piling out wearing big shoes, wigs, the whole 9 yards.
I paid several hundred for my card. Mailed my shit in, it took 6 months to get my card that is valid for 12. It's been well over a month for my renewal. They are fucking clowns. Belle got busted. She didn't know the laws, the cop sure as fuck didn't have a clue, the prosecutor, the judge, and her attorney ALL didn't know shit. Still don't!! What exactly is there to respect? What has this state done good in the last decade for it's citizens?

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I can certainly understand frustration with the State Government..Federal too. But I would bet the whole country feels that way, about the State they live in, and the feds.

Thing is, you have to participate to change it. What happened to 'ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country'?

Change comes slowly. Always has. The key is participating in the change in a productive way.

In regards to our med law, the thing is a page long. Think that it wasn't going to be defined over time? It's happening now. They Courts and State will continue to back down some..they have to, 63% voted for the thing..pretty clear message.

But the State will back down in respect to patients, not care givers, not people over growing to sell. The thought that this is a "for profit" opportunity isn't going to fly. Yes, some will profit. But not every yahoo with a grow light. Those that invest time and money in equipment and learning to grow "pharmaceutical grade" may do ok. Those wanting to grow and supply patients without conforming to any regulations will not.


The one thing Michigan Government has, is the ability to see what has happened in all the medical states prior to Michigan. In actuality, they are moving at lightning speed defining this law, making rulings, and trying to control this thing.

Amendments and clarification of the law will continue at a rapid pace. Like it or not.

These new rulings will be tested. Some yahoo with a card will get caught with 12 fully flowered plants, no patients, and a minor need. It will be clear his intent was to sell for profit, and the courts will try it.

63% voted in a med law. They did not vote in a free for all. You and I both know, as does the State, that abuse of this law is rampant. I don't think you abuse it. I don;t know who does and doesn't abuse it. Only way to know would be to see the grow, the patients being served, and the cash being handled.

I guarantee the cops are not done testing the waters on 'legitimacy"..and "reasonable"...my cautionary view is, and has been, play safe..avoid the appearance of impropriety, and you will be safer.

The loudest voice scream that it's ok to do whatever you want..the law protects you. Timmah will soon be screaming about the unjust arrests made to test this ruling. Right or wrong, the arrests will happen.

All I'm saying, is do you want to be that test case?

My whole point is, if you are truly medical, act like it, and you will have few worries. If you have a card to grow and sell with no substantial condition...be cautious..they still want to bust you...

I can go along with all that. Not the part about the dude with 12 plants getting in trouble though. That would be crazy shit. An attempted overage charge would piss me right off. lmao. I am getting a little pissed just thinking of it hypothetically. lol.
I pay my money and my pile of seeds will testify that I don't grow more than I am allowed (or my property would be loaded!!) But I am not impressed with our government and I will be the first to admit, I do not go to Lansing to negotiate with terrorists. Michigan is one of the only states that continues to lose population. And the democrats and republicans fuck over each other, I saw the videos on how Michigans government is one of the most fucked up in history. You defend them a lot, and think caregivers are crooks. I defend caregivers and think the politicians are the crooks. I don't even think the comparison is even close.
Why can't a drug felony allow you to be a caregiver. The lost the drug war, but then they say ok, you guys can grow, but not the guys that we falsely convicted though. How about going back and overturning those convictions cuz they were wrong to begin with? I don't trust them, don't believe them, and don't like them.

So you think the state is doing this all for our own good, and it has nothing to do with pharmaceutical companies and the trillions they have at stake? You think the stock in DOW the AG has has any bearing on any of his decisions in the slightest?

gladstoned said:

I can go along with all that. Not the part about the dude with 12 plants getting in trouble though. That would be crazy shit. An attempted overage charge would piss me right off. lmao. I am getting a little pissed just thinking of it hypothetically. lol.
I pay my money and my pile of seeds will testify that I don't grow more than I am allowed (or my property would be loaded!!) But I am not impressed with our government and I will be the first to admit, I do not go to Lansing to negotiate with terrorists. Michigan is one of the only states that continues to lose population. And the democrats and republicans fuck over each other, I saw the videos on how Michigans government is one of the most fucked up in history. You defend them a lot, and think caregivers are crooks. I defend caregivers and think the politicians are the crooks. I don't even think the comparison is even close.
Why can't a drug felony allow you to be a caregiver. The lost the drug war, but then they say ok, you guys can grow, but not the guys that we falsely convicted though. How about going back and overturning those convictions cuz they were wrong to begin with? I don't trust them, don't believe them, and don't like them.

So you think the state is doing this all for our own good, and it has nothing to do with pharmaceutical companies and the trillions they have at stake? You think the stock in DOW the AG has has any bearing on any of his decisions in the slightest?

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Oh, an attempted overage charge would upset me too...but not surprise me.

Yes, I think the State and Feds are dealing with cannabis in a manner to protect the country as an entity. Global politics come into play whether the little guy likes it or not. The vast majority of cannabis arrest are people really pushing the limits. Test the government, be prepared for them to test you back.

The government will find a way to regulate cannabis before it becomes legal for anything other than medical. It's not to benifit big pharma, or any other particular interest. It's to keep things from getting out of hand.

I'm for a supply system of small growers. The government would be ok with small growers too....if the small growers would actually comply and keep records and such.

the problem is that the small growers want to run free of regulations..they view that as an infringement on their rights. Big business understands the need for regulations, and will happily comply...and make all the money for doing so.

If the small guys were on a whole less belligerent, and trying to set up regulations that work with the Government, rather than Fighting all the time, the small grower may get a piece of the pie.

people need to think about how cannabis laws effect the world..not just themselves. It's a massive business...it's going to be heavily regulated, like it or not.

Sooner people accept that, the sooner they can start working for laws that help the small guy. It's not about individual rights..it's about global rights.

In my opinion, viewpoints such as Timmah has are great for stirring up emotion. He is a great cheerleader, gets every one pumped.

But the game is played on a higher level than he relates to, so he is not helping further the cause...only fanning the flames.

Small, family owned vineyards produce some of the finest wines on earth. Same could be true for cannabis. Cannabis growers need only to learn how to play nice with others.