HPS vs LED

Status
Not open for further replies.
S

snakedope

Well-Known Member
tstick said:
Pretty strong statement to say they are a waste when there are so many documented successful grows that use them. You're basically focusing your preferences on yield. GPW
Click to expand...
Oh, I didn't meant they are not good, they are better then hps in their own regard, but for the same watt (no matter big or small space) it's better to use a bulb that produce the most light.

I'll put a 400w hps in a 80 x 80 over a 315w or even the old 360w cdm anyday, 25k more lm.

And then you can say, but the spectrum is crazy good on those cdm and cmh, that's the balance for the less 25k lm, but I will reply that spectrum changes (from the hps to cmh range for this purpose) are marginal at the end product in terms of quality, sure the cmh will be better, but will it be worth to lose 25k lm better ?
For the pure hobbiest sure, I agree.
 
Last edited:
tstick

tstick

Well-Known Member
snakedope said:
Oh, I didn't meant they are not good, they are better then hps in their own regard, but for the same watt (no matter big or small space) it's better to use a bulb that produce the most light.

I'll put a 400w hps in a 80 x 80 over a 315w or even the old 360w cdm anyday, 25k more lm.

And then you can say, but the spectrum is crazy good on those cdm and cmh, that's the balance for the less 25k lm, but I will reply that spectrum changes (from the hps to cmh range for this purpose) are marginal at the end product in terms of quality, sure the cmh will be better, but will it be worth to lose 25k lm better ?
For the pure hobbiest sure, I agree.
Click to expand...
Well, that's me! I'm just a hobbyist who grows a few plants for my own, personal use. I don't really concern myself with what kind of yield I'm getting related to the light. I hardly ever grow the same strain twice, so there would be no way to gauge the yield-comparison based on the type of lighting. I can have a Blue Dream plant and a Laotian Sativa sitting next to each other in a tent and, no matter which type of light I use, the Blue Dream plant is ALWAYS going to out-yield the Laotian Sativa. But, if I ran a commercial grow op and I needed to reproduce a very consistent product every time I ran a specific strain, then, yes, LED would be the best best way to produce the most light and be the best investment for the business. The best thing about small-time growing is that you can try something new and different each time -both in terms of strains and also in terms of equipment. I'm glad I don't have to be concerned with grams per watt because I've grown some really low-yielding strains...sometimes they tasted good, though!
 
HippieFarmer420

HippieFarmer420

Well-Known Member
snakedope said:
CMH are a waste of money/time/size and efficiency wise, weed loves light, a lot of it, when choosing HIDs go for hps always.
People seem to forgot what 99% of growers had under their belt in the HID glory days
The reviews on alternate spectrum over higher intensity are marginal at best, so why get less light for the same watt ?

I love the fact that LEDs are getting more gpw but people need to understand that's just the way they are designed, spread.
If the industry made the same with HIDs who knows what the outcome might be



Please specify the reasons and pros and cons you experienced, that would be a good input for this debate
Click to expand...
I ran a SF4000, VS4300, PL4500 and a 600w hps..

All 4 of them were dedicated to their own 4x4 area in the same room..

All 3 of the 400w led lights had no problems keepig up with the 600w hps..

The plants under the led lights were actually more compact, better structure and yield was all around the same..

I didnt get weights but the results were enough for me to take down the hps lights and replace them with led..
 
thumper60

thumper60

Well-Known Member
snakedope said:
Ever wonder why the market prices are so low ?
Cuz growers opted to save electricity and produce tons of product that no one wants
Weird huh
100s on bulbs ? I buy 3 1k bulbs for 120 usd and that should last me a solid 2-3 years, cheap.

I agree on the 30% reduction, and better gpw figures, but that also come with a price of heaters, lower quality product, lower price at sell lower demend overall etc



Cheap is not a claim man... Old also, alien tech... These are all terms without anything behind them..
What are you trying to say ?
Or let barney say it instead, New is always better ?
Click to expand...
So you run 1 light an replace bulbs once a yr non stop? Market prices are low because its flooded with good bud we are med an rec legal here you cant give away for free old school 1000 watt MH OR HPS units they make good boat anchors.
 
HippieFarmer420

HippieFarmer420

Well-Known Member
As far as heat goes, they are also a life saver in my 10x5 tent..

I have 2 PH-B10 800w led light bars in this tent, if I wanted to run hps instead, that would be 2k watt hps and with that would bring a lot more heat then I want to deal with..

I've always been a strong believer of hps lighting " been using them for many years", but after seeing what these led lights can do these days, it's hard to deny they are impressive.
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
Like a lot of old growers, I started with HPS but I knew they weren't ideal even then. Both efficiency and spectrum sucked.

I switched to Philips 860W CDM (they ran at 1000W on the same 240V ballast) and the spectrum was a dramatic improvement. They were a daylight spectrum so they averaged about 3900 Kelvin. Their efficiency wasn't any better so I gave up a bit of yield in return for more frost and better terpenes.

Then I switched to COB LED and was astounded to see both yield AND quality improve! I made sure to validate these changes with others and they all saw what I saw. I retired HID as fast as I could.

LED is better both in terms of spectrum and efficiency and also in another way that people haven't mentioned; spread. Instead of a single brilliant (and hot!) point source of light, now there's a nice even blanket of light which really reduces leaf shading and bleaching. I'm convinced this is where some of the performance improvement comes from.

To those who say LED makes no heat; this is incorrect. They make a larger ratio of PAR to heat, but no light is magic. If you don't have enough heat from LED lights, insulate or reduce airflow, that's a much better solution than running an electric heater! Also, many grows need heat at night to reduce relative humidity and of course what kind of lights you're running don't matter in the dark. (Or do they? Stay tuned!)

To those who say the UV from HID lights of any description is what sets them apart, you need to read bulb specs; they DON'T make much UV because if they did (and they can!) OSHA and other Federal Safety oversight agencies would outlaw them as damaging to eyes and skin- and rightly so! That outer bulb of glass is specifically designed to block UV.

If you want to add UV to your grow you'll need to do it with intention; buy lights specifically designed for the task. T5 florescent lights are a good choice, I frankly don't know anything about UV LED lights.

Also, do yourselves a favor and never work under UV light; shut them off while you're in the space. Skin damage and corneal damage, cataracts and macular degeneration are all possible chronic effects from UV exposure and can ultimately lead to decreased vision. (Johns Hopkins Medicine) There are going to be a lot of old blind growers; don't be one of them.

We ARE Gods in our own grow rooms; angry, stupid and lazy or careful, perceptive and diligent but the lives and health of our plants are firmly in our hands. Light is one important factor. It's not the only one, by far.
 
thumper60

thumper60

Well-Known Member
ttystikk said:
Like a lot of old growers, I started with HPS but I knew they weren't ideal even then. Both efficiency and spectrum sucked.

I switched to Philips 860W CDM (they ran at 1000W on the same 240V ballast) and the spectrum was a dramatic improvement. They were a daylight spectrum so they averaged about 3900 Kelvin. Their efficiency wasn't any better so I gave up a bit of yield in return for more frost and better terpenes.

Then I switched to COB LED and was astounded to see both yield AND quality improve! I made sure to validate these changes with others and they all saw what I saw. I retired HID as fast as I could.

LED is better both in terms of spectrum and efficiency and also in another way that people haven't mentioned; spread. Instead of a single brilliant (and hot!) point source of light, now there's a nice even blanket of light which really reduces leaf shading and bleaching. I'm convinced this is where some of the performance improvement comes from.

To those who say LED makes no heat; this is incorrect. They make a larger ratio of PAR to heat, but no light is magic. If you don't have enough heat from LED lights, insulate or reduce airflow, that's a much better solution than running an electric heater! Also, many grows need heat at night to reduce relative humidity and of course what kind of lights you're running don't matter in the dark. (Or do they? Stay tuned!)

To those who say the UV from HID lights of any description is what sets them apart, you need to read bulb specs; they DON'T make much UV because if they did (and they can!) OSHA and other Federal Safety oversight agencies would outlaw them as damaging to eyes and skin- and rightly so! That outer bulb of glass is specifically designed to block UV.

If you want to add UV to your grow you'll need to do it with intention; buy lights specifically designed for the task. T5 florescent lights are a good choice, I frankly don't know anything about UV LED lights.

Also, do yourselves a favor and never work under UV light; shut them off while you're in the space. Skin damage and corneal damage, cataracts and macular degeneration are all possible chronic effects from UV exposure and can ultimately lead to decreased vision. (Johns Hopkins Medicine) There are going to be a lot of old blind growers; don't be one of them.

We ARE Gods in our own grow rooms; angry, stupid and lazy or careful, perceptive and diligent but the lives and health of our plants are firmly in our hands. Light is one important factor. It's not the only one, by far.
Click to expand...
100 % truth spoken 4 700 watt leds heats my16x24 out building here in maine of course need heat lights out just like i was doing with hps.
 
tstick

tstick

Well-Known Member
The evolution of the lights I have used:

1975 -shop lights (fluorescent)

1985 Hydro Farm 400 watt Metal Halide (unshielded)

*long break*

2013 Area 51 Cree red & white LED (125 watts)

201? Timber 400 watt "Frank the Tank"

201? Nextlight Mini

2020 HLG (the red/white, 1/2 fixture one)

*2023 Updayday (freebie replacement for a broken one) 500 watt LED (haven't tried it, yet)

I've grown good plants under *ALL these types of lights. I would say that the quality and efficiency of the lights has gone up over the years, but the quality of the available strains has has gone down. I still enjoy growing weed, all the same, anyway.
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
tstick said:
The evolution of the lights I have used:

1975 -shop lights (fluorescent)

1985 Hydro Farm 400 watt Metal Halide (unshielded)

*long break*

2013 Area 51 Cree red & white LED (125 watts)

201? Timber 400 watt "Frank the Tank"

201? Nextlight Mini

2020 HLG (the red/white, 1/2 fixture one)

*2023 Updayday (freebie replacement for a broken one) 500 watt LED (haven't tried it, yet)

I've grown good plants under *ALL these types of lights. I would say that the quality and efficiency of the lights has gone up over the years, but the quality of the available strains has has gone down. I still enjoy growing weed, all the same, anyway.
Click to expand...
Soooooo many "breeders" out there have no damn clue what they're doing so they just chuck strains together, muddy all the lines and occasionally get lucky with a pheno that pops.

I hear you loud and clear.

Also; lighting has improved but climate control really hasn't.

Oh, and nice handle ya got there LOL
 
tstick

tstick

Well-Known Member
ttystikk said:
Soooooo many "breeders" out there have no damn clue what they're doing so they just chuck strains together, muddy all the lines and occasionally get lucky with a pheno that pops.

I hear you loud and clear.

Also; lighting has improved but climate control really hasn't.

Oh, and nice handle ya got there LOL
Click to expand...
Yeah, that's basically all I can do -buy some seeds, hope for a good phenotype to jump out. In terms of grower-ability, there has been an INCREDIBLE increase in knowledge. Even Jorge Cervantes and a bunch of those older guys are already out-scienced. I've been growing a long time, but I never used to know what I was doing. I didn't have access to ANY real scientific/botanical literature back in the 70's -other than High Times Magazine articles. So, I just threw some bag seeds into whatever dirt and water it whenever and put it under whatever conditions where it could stay hidden well -enough....and that was often NOT ideal in terms of climate control! ;)
 
Fangthane

Fangthane

Well-Known Member
I kinda wish my circumstances would let me give HIDs a real try. In high summer, my 5x5 tent with only a single 480watt QB setup gets well up into the 90s inside. I got a 315watt CMH a few years ago to play around with, but I can only use it in the dead of winter, and even then it gets kinda toasty when the house heating is running. I like the little CMH for my 1mX1m tent, but can't say the results were noticeably better than when I used any of the cheap Chinese 250watt LED fixtures I have sitting around. My personal opinion is that HID lights are dinosaurs and LEDs are Chicxulub, but that may just be because LEDs were already a common thing by the time I started growing.
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
Fangthane said:
I kinda wish my circumstances would let me give HIDs a real try. In high summer, my 5x5 tent with only a single 480watt QB setup gets well up into the 90s inside. I got a 315watt CMH a few years ago to play around with, but I can only use it in the dead of winter, and even then it gets kinda toasty when the house heating is running. I like the little CMH for my 1mX1m tent, but can't say the results were noticeably better than when I used any of the cheap Chinese 250watt LED fixtures I have sitting around. My personal opinion is that HID lights are dinosaurs and LEDs are Chicxulub, but that may just be because LEDs were already a common thing by the time I started growing.
Click to expand...
There have been some big advances in LED lighting over the years.

The biggest one has been light makers running their chips at a fraction of their maximum output, thereby reducing heat and improving efficiency and longevity.

Cheap LED lights don't really take advantage of this because they're trying to get the most light at the least cost; running chips at 20% of their max is not the way to do that, even if it is a better light for the purpose (nevermind the customer!).

That's what you're paying for when you buy a top tier LED light; you're buying more chips run softly to get better efficiency.

I think your grow is ready for a couple of T5 florescent lamps with UV-A and UV-B spectrum. Run them on a separate timer, do maybe an hour a day in the first week of bloom and increase it by an hour a week all through bloom. See what you think...
 
S

snakedope

Well-Known Member
thumper60 said:
So you run 1 light an replace bulbs once a yr non stop? Market prices are low because its flooded with good bud we are med an rec legal here you cant give away for free old school 1000 watt MH OR HPS units they make good boat anchors.
Click to expand...
Yeah every 3 cycles I replace it, that's once a year almost, my cycles are short, I don't veg with the same bulb, so 8 months use total until I switch. feels good with me although I can probably take it longer, they don't degrade that much anyway in that time frame.

Flooded with good bud ? Boy the def of good bud really has changed since I was 16, that was 20 years ago, I know that the rec and med bud is shit in the states, it's not good, hence the prices.
We had good bad crazy whatever weed you want for years and years, never seen these kind of prices, 90% of what is produced today is bonk, genetics or light source, no matter, this is verified.
It's not just in the states, it's universal.

Fangthane said:
I kinda wish my circumstances would let me give HIDs a real try. In high summer, my 5x5 tent with only a single 480watt QB setup gets well up into the 90s inside. I got a 315watt CMH a few years ago to play around with, but I can only use it in the dead of winter, and even then it gets kinda toasty when the house heating is running. I like the little CMH for my 1mX1m tent, but can't say the results were noticeably better than when I used any of the cheap Chinese 250watt LED fixtures I have sitting around. My personal opinion is that HID lights are dinosaurs and LEDs are Chicxulub, but that may just be because LEDs were already a common thing by the time I started growing.
Click to expand...
315w in a 1x1m tent ? No..... Bad idea, not enough light at all, a 600 is best, 400 if your sketchy.
 
secretmicrogrow420

secretmicrogrow420

Well-Known Member
snakedope said:
CMH are a waste of money/time/size and efficiency wise, weed loves light, a lot of it, when choosing HIDs go for hps always.
People seem to forgot what 99% of growers had under their belt in the HID glory days
The reviews on alternate spectrum over higher intensity are marginal at best, so why get less light for the same watt ?

I love the fact that LEDs are getting more gpw but people need to understand that's just the way they are designed, spread.
If the industry made the same with HIDs who knows what the outcome might be



Please specify the reasons and pros and cons you experienced, that would be a good input for this debate
Click to expand...
anyone saying when choosing HID go for HPS obviously grows mids lmfao no offense man but me and my bro grew with HPS lights for years. Rocking a 10k CMH will produce a way more potent product than a 2k hps lmfao str8 up.
Here is something a book that im reading says
"Even if plants are being grown under HPS lamps, potency increases significantly if they are replaced with ceramic metal halides during the last two weeks of flowering."
 
secretmicrogrow420

secretmicrogrow420

Well-Known Member
rkymtnman said:
the 315 agro bulb by philips was designed specifically for a 3x3
Click to expand...
honestly man people who say HPS is better than CMH obviously have no idea what they're talking about. with 2k hps the end quality just isnt there trust me. with a 10k cmh you get ultra potent buds. too each they're own i don't fight the noobs anymore. if you guys wanna grow mids with 2k hps go for it. I personally prefer to grow fire so 10K CMH it is!
 
S

snakedope

Well-Known Member
rkymtnman said:
the 315 agro bulb by philips was designed specifically for a 3x3
Click to expand...
Yep, I would still put a 400 hps for better results all around, the cmh will up the terps (maybe) but the 400 will veg and flower better and faster
Still to each his own, if it's a hobby then the benefits of each bulb will appeal to different people.

secretmicrogrow420 said:
anyone saying when choosing HID go for HPS obviously grows mids lmfao no offense man but me and my bro grew with HPS lights for years. Rocking a 10k CMH will produce a way more potent product than a 2k hps lmfao str8 up.
Here is something a book that im reading says
"Even if plants are being grown under HPS lamps, potency increases significantly if they are replaced with ceramic metal halides during the last two weeks of flowering."
Click to expand...
Bro, people grew dank with hps before you and I were even born, stop talking nonsense, before LEDs all you smoked was hps, no one was complaining about quality.
Way more potent - you have tests to verify this claim ?
The difference in the end product in cmh and hps always boils down to yield, because the quality is there in both, and pretty much the same.

secretmicrogrow420 said:
honestly man people who say HPS is better than CMH obviously have no idea what they're talking about. with 2k hps the end quality just isnt there trust me. with a 10k cmh you get ultra potent buds. too each they're own i don't fight the noobs anymore. if you guys wanna grow mids with 2k hps go for it. I personally prefer to grow fire so 10K CMH it is!
Click to expand...
Hps is better, 30% more light for the same watt, so yeah, they are better, in terms of spectrum sure it's worse, but again spectrum research is not going anywhere for now, having ultra sun spectrum but half the light output won't make your plants superman or "ultra potent buds" lol
But I do wish it was
 
secretmicrogrow420

secretmicrogrow420

Well-Known Member
snakedope said:
Yep, I would still put a 400 hps for better results all around, the cmh will up the terps (maybe) but the 400 will veg and flower better and faster
Still to each his own, if it's a hobby then the benefits of each bulb will appeal to different people.



Bro, people grew dank with hps before you and I were even born, stop talking nonsense, before LEDs all you smoked was hps, no one was complaining about quality.
Way more potent - you have tests to verify this claim ?
The difference in the end product in cmh and hps always boils down to yield, because the quality is there in both, and pretty much the same.



Hps is better, 30% more light for the same watt, so yeah, they are better, in terms of spectrum sure it's worse, but again spectrum research is not going anywhere for now, having ultra sun spectrum but half the light output won't make your plants superman or "ultra potent buds" lol
But I do wish it was
Click to expand...
here is something a book im reading says about HPS :
High-Pressure Sodium Lamps (HPS)
Efficacy: Good, 1.7 µmols/J (Nelson and Bugbee)
Spectrum: Excellent for growth, good for secondary metabolites and overall quality

Heres what the new philips 3100k says in the documentation from philips:
Excellent PPF (Photosynthetic Photon Flux) – 1.9 umols
• Higher growth light compared to 400W HPS lamps*


am i wrong or does this say that hps is 1.7umols and cmh 3100k from philips is 1.9 umols? or am i wrong af? lol
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top