If I had the chance to explain libertarians to John Stewart

tomahawk2406

tomahawk2406

Well-Known Member
RyanTheRhino said:
To own someone for labor is slavery. When I was born my parents had to pay a bill to the doctors. To own property I must pay a bill. When I want to eat I must pay a bill. You may say well you can grow your own food, but I must own property to grow food. I am a slave to the system just like everyone else. I must do labor for someone else to get food & shelter. I can not simply walk away from the system because I will die from starvation or get punished for not doing what they say. If I try to farm on land the government will come and arrested me for trespassing. If I try to fish for food I will get arrested because you need a fishing licensed. I am forced to work unwillingly for companies and organisations that allow me to feed myself ,even when left alone I could just gather my own food.

I'm sorry you are stuck on the African American view of slavery ignoring the 4000 years of slavery that came before it. The first written history of slaves came from ancient Sumeria in 2100 BCE and that is because they where first to create a written language. Imagine how far back it really went. Slavery has existed until 1865. My family has never owned a slave & most likely came form the old slaves of Greece & Persia. Yet my birth certificate says I am white/Caucasian so i am the bad guy.

Sorry if i used the word slave as it is defined ownership
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well i like my freeway to work........id rather pay taxes, words and talk won't change the system. unless you got a lot of people with guns your a "slave" to the grind..............
 
UncleBuck

UncleBuck

Well-Known Member
RyanTheRhino said:
To own someone for labor is slavery. When I was born my parents had to pay a bill to the doctors. To own property I must pay a bill. When I want to eat I must pay a bill. You may say well you can grow your own food, but I must own property to grow food. I am a slave to the system just like everyone else. I must do labor for someone else to get food & shelter. I can not simply walk away from the system because I will die from starvation or get punished for not doing what they say. If I try to farm on land the government will come and arrested me for trespassing. If I try to fish for food I will get arrested because you need a fishing licensed. I am forced to work unwillingly for companies and organisations that allow me to feed myself ,even when left alone I could just gather my own food.

I'm sorry you are stuck on the African American view of slavery ignoring the 4000 years of slavery that came before it. The first written history of slaves came from ancient Sumeria in 2100 BCE and that is because they where first to create a written language. Imagine how far back it really went. Slavery has existed until 1865. My family has never owned a slave & most likely came form the old slaves of Greece & Persia. Yet my birth certificate says I am white/Caucasian so i am the bad guy.

Sorry if i used the word slave as it is defined ownership
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waaahhh!

it's so unfair!

go run off to siberia and be a hunter-gatherer if you hate living in the best country on the face of the earth, a country which was made great by COLLECTIVE sacrifice and hard work.
 
chickengutz

chickengutz

Well-Known Member
True Libertarians are left of Liberals socially, and right of conservatives economically. That about sums it up.
 
The Ruiner

The Ruiner

Well-Known Member
RyanTheRhino said:
I'm sorry you are stuck on the African American view of slavery ignoring the 4000 years of slavery that came before it. The first written history of slaves came from ancient Sumeria in 2100 BCE and that is because they where first to create a written language. Imagine how far back it really went. Slavery has existed until 1865. My family has never owned a slave & most likely came form the old slaves of Greece & Persia. Yet my birth certificate says I am white/Caucasian so i am the bad guy.

Sorry if i used the word slave as it is defined ownership
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That is not true...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vin%C4%8Da_signs
 
deprave

deprave

New Member
canndo said:
What I do is establish that government provides a service that no other organization can provide. It is a service that libertarians take for granted because they live in this society and cannot, as a fish cannot see water, see that the scafolding of their proposd system dissapears when their system is put into place - the service is order and predictability. Libertarianism works, but what it establishes is a brutish, darwininian society that is reactive and never proactive. Reactive societies result in large scale human death and suffering where only the strongest, the smartest and the luckiest fare well. This is not a society that one could easly call "civilized" I enjoy civilization and do not wish to see it dissapear.
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I think you confuse libertarians with anarchist...libertarians don't believe in chaos and absolutely no government and only the strongest survive, that is anarchy. Like I wrote its simply the individual vs the collective mentality to put it simply. This is a common misconception. There is also many famous libertarians that believed in anarchy so who can blame one for having this view of libertarians after all....




Libertarian or Anarchist?

Libertarians are often accused of being anarchists or asked what the difference is between a libertarian and an anarchist. The popular image of anarchy is unrestrained violence and looting. Libertarians take a stronger stand against violence and looting than any other political group including republicans and democrats. The early history of the United States with its severely limited government was strongly libertarian and completely different from this image of anarchy.

The misunderstanding on this issue comes from the ideal state of peace and productivity with no government interference imagined by many libertarians who forget that we are the only ones who can imagine it. In a libertarian society the evolution of voluntary institutions providing the few remaining government services might lead to the gradual elimination of government but this scenario is completely beyond the imagination of the general public and it harms our cause to confront them with such a startling vision.

Here is a menu of answers to the question:

What's the difference between libertarians and anarchists?
The traditional answer
Libertarians want severely limited government and anarchists want none.

The humanist answer
Libertarians are nonviolent; some anarchists are violent.

The funny answer
Libertarians are to anarchists as nudists are to naked people.They're just middle class & organized so they appear less crazy.

The Party answer (from Andre Marrou)
An anarchist is an extreme libertarian, like a socialist is an extreme democrat, and a fascist is an extreme republican.

The graphic answer
It's like the difference between a lover and a rapist.They're both in the same place but one uses violence to get there.

The straight answer
Libertarians believe in free markets, private property, and capitalism. Anarchists who believe in these things usually call themselves libertarians.
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A left libertarian view of things:
PART1
[video=youtube;qmf7ksraGSY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmf7ksraGSY[/video]

PART2
[video=youtube;ZU7hSV1UsaM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZU7hSV1UsaM&feature=related[/video]
 
N

NoDrama

Well-Known Member
tomahawk2406 said:
don't play stupid dude watch the video again come on
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NoDrama said:
Which video are you watching?
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The reason why I asked is because there are TWO videos there, the Youtube one, and the hulu one and I just wanted to know which one to watch so i wouldn't have to waste a bunch of time. Obviously you took it as some kind of insult, not really sure how since its a simple direct question.
 
canndo

canndo

Well-Known Member
RyanTheRhino said:
To own someone for labor is slavery. When I was born my parents had to pay a bill to the doctors. To own property I must pay a bill. When I want to eat I must pay a bill. You may say well you can grow your own food, but I must own property to grow food. I am a slave to the system just like everyone else. I must do labor for someone else to get food & shelter. I can not simply walk away from the system because I will die from starvation or get punished for not doing what they say. If I try to farm on land the government will come and arrested me for trespassing. If I try to fish for food I will get arrested because you need a fishing licensed. I am forced to work unwillingly for companies and organisations that allow me to feed myself ,even when left alone I could just gather my own food.

I'm sorry you are stuck on the African American view of slavery ignoring the 4000 years of slavery that came before it. The first written history of slaves came from ancient Sumeria in 2100 BCE and that is because they where first to create a written language. Imagine how far back it really went. Slavery has existed until 1865. My family has never owned a slave & most likely came form the old slaves of Greece & Persia. Yet my birth certificate says I am white/Caucasian so i am the bad guy.

Sorry if i used the word slave as it is defined ownership
Click to expand...

A true slave cannot come and go as he pleases, he cannot own property of his own so by that very fact your comparison fails. You did not address the specifics of what I said, you are not beaten or whipped if you do not comply with your master's wishes, you are not sold, nor are your children. No one is making you out to be a bad guy, I don't care what color you are. What I care about is a false and insulting comparision which makes slavery not all that bad because you compare it to taxation. I will continue to say that there is no cogent or resonable comparison between the two.
 
canndo

canndo

Well-Known Member
deprave said:
I think you confuse libertarians with anarchist...libertarians don't believe in chaos and absolutely no government and only the strongest survive, that is anarchy. Like I wrote its simply the individual vs the collective mentality to put it simply. This is a common misconception. There is also many famous libertarians that believed in anarchy so who can blame one for having this view of libertarians after all....







A left libertarian view of things:
PART1
[video=youtube;qmf7ksraGSY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmf7ksraGSY[/video]

PART2
[video=youtube;ZU7hSV1UsaM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZU7hSV1UsaM&feature=related[/video]
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Umm... no, I do not believe that libertarians believe in anarchy (which in my opinion by the way is a legitimate form of society). I am aware that libertarians believe strongly in basic order - murder and theft violate libertarian ideals. Note I said Darwinism - where in an economic realm there is always self correction. I see that there is a belief that these self corrections work and work better than government regulation. Am I correct in my assumption?
 
N

NoDrama

Well-Known Member
canndo said:
A true slave cannot come and go as he pleases, he cannot own property of his own so by that very fact your comparison fails. You did not address the specifics of what I said, you are not beaten or whipped if you do not comply with your master's wishes, you are not sold, nor are your children. No one is making you out to be a bad guy, I don't care what color you are. What I care about is a false and insulting comparision which makes slavery not all that bad because you compare it to taxation. I will continue to say that there is no cogent or resonable comparison between the two.
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Why do people own slaves? To make them do labor right? Or did people own slaves so they could dress them up and use them as Pets? Slavery and taxing ones labor are very similar. Your labor belongs only to you, no one else can claim your labor, but they do and you think its quite alright? He isn't comparing taxation to Slavery he is comparing the INCOME tax to slavery.
 
deprave

deprave

New Member
canndo said:
Umm... no, I do not believe that libertarians believe in anarchy (which in my opinion by the way is a legitimate form of society). I am aware that libertarians believe strongly in basic order - murder and theft violate libertarian ideals. Note I said Darwinism - where in an economic realm there is always self correction. I see that there is a belief that these self corrections work and work better than government regulation. Am I correct in my assumption?
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Partialy yes, however, it still sounds like you are referring to anarchy or a libertarians wet dream to me, not so much libertarian reality which at its foundation would simply be that the people have more power then governments and/or the private sector, calling it 'Darwinism' is not really fair. Its rule by the people, in one way its 'democracy' in the modern use of the word(as we are taught to believe democracy is a rule by the people when its really mob rule by the 51%)...Libertarianism is in essence exactly what this country was founded on.

If you believe like most americans firmly that people should have more power over their lives then either corporations and/or government...You are a libertarian, plain and simple, your automatically in the libertarian section of the political spectrum. I argue that most Americans are libertarians.
 
canndo

canndo

Well-Known Member
deprave said:
Partialy yes, however, it still sounds like you are referring to anarchy or a libertarians wet dream to me, not so much libertarian reality which at its foundation would simply be that the people have more power then governments and/or the private sector, calling it 'Darwinism' is not really fair. Its rule by the people, in one way its 'democracy' in the modern use of the word(as we are taught to believe democracy is a rule by the people when its really mob rule by the 51%)...Libertarianism is in essence exactly what this country was founded on.

If you believe like most americans firmly that people should have more power over their lives then either corporations and/or government...You are a libertarian, plain and simple, your automatically in the libertarian section of the political spectrum. I argue that most Americans are libertarians.
Click to expand...

If I believe that it is in the best interest of the individual and the collective to regulate corporatism - am I a libertarian?
 
canndo

canndo

Well-Known Member
NoDrama said:
Why do people own slaves? To make them do labor right? Or did people own slaves so they could dress them up and use them as Pets? Slavery and taxing ones labor are very similar. Your labor belongs only to you, no one else can claim your labor, but they do and you think its quite alright? He isn't comparing taxation to Slavery he is comparing the INCOME tax to slavery.
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The question is not why some people "owned" slaves but what they did with their "property". That is the difference between taxation and slavery. If you don't like the income tax in this country, you can always leave for another. Not true with a slave - that is the fundamental and critical difference.
 
deprave

deprave

New Member
canndo said:
If I believe that it is in the best interest of the individual and the collective to regulate corporatism - am I a libertarian?
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possibly, this is not enough information to determine that, but believing in the collective would not be libertarian philosophically..As I said libertarians believe that the individual IS the collective...the more you believe in the collective the less libertarian you are essentially because that pushes you away from libertarianism and toward authoritarianism. So this is why I wrote that this is the one essential thing that all libertarians believe in philosophically.

Collectivism Vs Individualism - doesn't push you left or right as commonly surmised, yet another example of how conservatives hijack libertarian views as if it is their own, and to be fair the democrats to do their fair share of hijacking, they divide us perfectly into two when really it should be 5 to 8 parties to really represent everyone. The term "collectivist" or "collectivism" is usually reserved for communist, socialist or leftist politicians and their policies. It is true that collectivism is generally a left wing obsession, but not entirely. Conservatives, for example neo-conservatives, monarchists, neoliberals, social conservatives, etc... are also collectivists.
 
sync0s

sync0s

Well-Known Member
canndo said:
If I believe that it is in the best interest of the individual and the collective to regulate corporatism - am I a libertarian?
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Yes, it could make you one. Damn corporatism to hell.

“If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their money, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them (around the banks), will deprive the people of their property until their children will wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered.” Thomas Jefferson also said this in 1816,
“I hope that we shall crush in its birth the aristocracy of our monied corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength, and bid defiance to the laws of our country.”
Jefferson wasn’t the only founding father to make statements about corporations. John Adams also had an opinion.
“Banks have done more injury to the religion, morality, tranquility, prosperity, and even wealth of the nation than they can have done or ever will do good.”
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chickengutz

chickengutz

Well-Known Member
sync0s said:
Libertarians vary so much in political philosophy, probably even more than all other parties.
Some are for homosexuality, some are against;
Some are pro-choice, some are pro-life;
Some are for taxation, some are against;

There is only one thing someone needs to know about libertarians in order to understand the basis of it's philosophy: Philosophy of Libertarianism is founded on one persons own morals in respect to what it means to be human, and what it means to be free and equal.

Obviously there is always debate over the outcomes of these meanings because it is open to our own interpretation. However, that is the beauty of this political philosophy. It's based on morals and inevitably the question always occurs: Is it right, fair, or just?

Okay... I'm done. :)
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Oh my god, you have absolutely no idea what the Libertarian platform, or core principals entail. How can you post on something you don't have a fucking clue about. Go back 3 spaces dumbfuck.
 
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