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Thecouchlock said:

The funny thing is, there is a member IndicaAngel that uses the 500w vipars and she has some pretty nice looking dank to show for it. I also could care less if someone ignores me for saying I will never use a piece of shit kessil.

The fact of the matter is, half of you asshats have never tried the lights that you are talking about so it is honestly a disservice to the rest of the forum as your not giving evidence from your own experiences but using others that may be 2-3 years old by now.

You can argue par and all that other bullshit but what people want to know is. "Will it grow my weed?" and the answer is it definitely will grow your weed. It may not grow you 1 gram a watt or be PERFECT but seriously the shit show keeps rolling and people who would do fine with a couple chinese panels get told they are fuckin stupid and all that jazz.

This place used to have love and friendship now it has people stroking each others dicks and flinging poo

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No...they would be better off with hps of the same wattage the led they are looking at is...simple as that. If they want to be better than hps then there are options, that us "asshats" show people.

I have owned a stealth grow 602 and a 28w eBay panel...yes that's right, I bought one of those eBay things for my first ever led...and not even apollo status. Speaking of apollo's I have tested in person many different panels and lights...and I recommend the ones that lead in specs and show success in the grow room. It still takes the best in the industry to compare to hps in the grow room and on paper.

Thecouchlock said:

You can argue par and all that other bullshit but what people want to know is. "Will it grow my weed?" and the answer is it definitely will grow your weed. It may not grow you 1 gram a watt or be PERFECT

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There must be some way to objectively assess one's choices of lights. It can't be as simple as "they'll all grow your weed." There must be ways to determine whether someone is only producing for personal use (doesn't care about profits from higher yields). Or, if they're dealing with heat problems and it's worth paying for more efficient lights. Or, why a fixture using Cree is more expensive than Chinese-import epi-whatever diodes.

Or, why it's worth spending 2x on fixtures that don't disclose what diodes they use. I.e., Kind, Lush, et. al. The answer to this question is a lot like what you're saying: nobody cares about minutiae like diode brands, binning, etc. Just whether it grows.

Clearly there are people who care about these things or they wouldn't be asking for advice. The answer to those who don't care is to stop reading the advice.

az2000 said:

There must be some way to objectively assess one's choices of lights. It can't be as simple as "they'll all grow your weed." There must be ways to determine whether someone is only producing for personal use (doesn't care about profits from higher yields). Or, if they're dealing with heat problems and it's worth paying for more efficient lights. Or, why a fixture using Cree is more expensive than Chinese-import epi-whatever diodes.

Or, why it's worth spending 2x on fixtures that don't disclose what diodes they use. I.e., Kind, Lush, et. al. The answer to this question is a lot like what you're saying: nobody cares about minutiae like diode brands, binning, etc. Just whether it grows.

Clearly there are people who care about these things or they wouldn't be asking for advice. The answer to those who don't care is to stop reading the advice.

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There is no best, there is a best for your situation. That is why it is a disservice to recommend any lighting system without knowing the dimension of their space, their ventilation, and outdoor temp. Heat is a big and expensive deal if it's also hot outside, but it's an easy problem if it's cold outside. Also are you going to run continuously or seasonally? The best thing we could do for recommending lighting is build a decision tree. Then the person gets optimal lighting for their space, plants, and pocket book.

I can't speak for everyone but most people here with real knowledge of LEDs,MM spectral and energy needs and light efficiencies won't recommend these lower quality less efficient LED panels because it make no sense to. They don't have any advantage over HPS or CMH. Low efficiency panels put off as much heat or more,you would need more watts of them than HPS,they cost more to run,they cost more to buy so why would someone want one of these over HPS or CMH.

nomofatum said:

The best thing we could do for recommending lighting is build a decision tree.

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I agree. I've said a few times that forums benefit from an accompanying wiki. Just like this site has a blog, a wiki would serve a specific purpose: collecting and improving common topics. Forums are for conversations, not structured, hierarchical, encyclopedic knowledge. ("Stickies" are an indication something's lacking. Long lists of important *conversations* promoted to a more visible status. They're considered the "basics" that should be easily accessible. That's a wiki topic.).

A wiki and forum are much the same. Collaborative. It's just a different collaboration: compilation in one place, conversation in the other. They feed each other (compiling new information originating from conversations; conversing about compiled topics).

If page views (banner ad revenue) is a motivation toward repeating conversations about the same thing, banner ads can be placed within wiki templates.

Some topics like LED may be difficult to distill into a single topic. There would be disagrement about conclusions, relevant details. But, that's what *conversation* is about. As mutually (majority) agreeable elements arise, they become realized within the wiki -- not subject to endless conversations where minutae and semantics are quibbled over.

captainmorgan said:

I can't speak for everyone but most people here with real knowledge of LEDs,MM spectral and energy needs and light efficiencies won't recommend these lower quality less efficient LED panels because it make no sense to. They don't have any advantage over HPS or CMH. Low efficiency panels put off as much heat or more,you would need more watts of them than HPS,they cost more to run,they cost more to buy so why would someone want one of these over HPS or CMH.

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Depends on what LEDs. Some are lower, some higher and some about the same efficiency. In small spaces LEDs of any kind have the advantage due to low profile nature, the lower the profile the better as it leave more space for plants in their tiny box. Usually in a tiny box you either have a lot of heat issues (unvented) or no heat issues (vented.) So in some cases the shape of your lighting is the most importing factor. In some cases the heat/light ratio is he most important factor. In other cases its important to be able to separate and move your lights around. There is no best product, we are stupid if we only recommend the solution we use. There is no best light. No best LED. No best HPS. No best MH.....

az2000 said:

I agree.

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I knew one day it would happen.

captainmorgan said:

so why would someone want one of these over HPS or CMH.

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I can only think of one: limited height. Can I run CMH in a 2x4x4 tall tent? A 3w UFO (chips mounted on white backboard) works well in that space with some supplemental side lighting. Hans would be good for that space, but what if someone can't afford that? What are their choices? I think a cheap Chinese import might be valid in this case.

The alternative is the Cree lightbulbs. But, someone might not be into that level of DIY to deal with hanging lightbulbs. They might want the simplicity of fixtures. (Gets into other issues, like whether they have heat issues.).

T5HO works ok in that space. But, I think Chinese epi-whatever fixtures are about the same as T5HO (lumens per watt, heat generation). (A T5 fixture will probably last longer.).

az2000 said:

T5HO works ok in that space. But, I think Chinese epi-whatever fixtures are about the same as T5HO (lumens per watt, heat generation). (A T5 fixture will probably last longer.).

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Yes, the epistars are a tiny bit better efficiency than T5HO (though there may be one or two examples of T5HO bulbs that flip that around.)

The fixture sure will last longer, like forever unless you treat them like shit, the bulbs are another story, they drop in efficiency fairly fast. You will be buying bulbs every 6 months to keep them as efficient as the epistars.

nomofatum said:

Depends on what LEDs. Some are lower, some higher and some about the same efficiency. In small spaces LEDs of any kind have the advantage due to low profile nature, the lower the profile the better as it leave more space for plants in their tiny box. Usually in a tiny box you either have a lot of heat issues (unvented) or no heat issues (vented.) So in some cases the shape of your lighting is the most importing factor. In some cases the heat/light ratio is he most important factor. In other cases its important to be able to separate and move your lights around. There is no best product, we are stupid if we only recommend the solution we use. There is no best light. No best LED. No best HPS. No best MH.....

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Of course there are special circumstances,I was referring to the vast majority. If someone here gives lighting advise and doesn't ask your grow size,grow style,environment and such questions you should ignore that advise. They should know how many watts you need for your space,distance from the plants and if they haven't used the light them selves they should be able to direct you to someone who has.

az2000 said:

I can only think of one: limited height. Can I run CMH in a 2x4x4 tall tent? A 3w UFO (chips mounted on white backboard) works well in that space with some supplemental side lighting. Hans would be good for that space, but what if someone can't afford that? What are their choices? I think a cheap Chinese import might be valid in this case.

The alternative is the Cree lightbulbs. But, someone might not be into that level of DIY to deal with hanging lightbulbs. They might want the simplicity of fixtures. (Gets into other issues, like whether they have heat issues.).

T5HO works ok in that space. But, I think Chinese epi-whatever fixtures are about the same as T5HO (lumens per watt, heat generation). (A T5 fixture will probably last longer.).

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Agreed on the CMH comment, anytime I suggest looking at CMH I do warn about head room. imo, 6ft height is the minimum for a reflector setup, bare bulb you might get away with 4-5 ft.. In a 2x4x4, I'd stick with LED's, 2x RW-150's would cover that space nicely. I've been looking to try a 150w Philips Allstart CMH in a 2x2x4 space (bare-bulb) but having a hell of a time trying to source them here (Canada) without getting into ridiculous pricing or shipping costs.

Tight spaces are where DIY and high efficiency LEDs are best. The lower you drive them the more efficient they are and the cooler they run and the closer they can be.

GroErr said:

RW-150's would cover that space nicely.

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Yes, but that requires a little more vertical distance (5w chips in reflectors vs 3w against white backgrounds). If someone wanted to get 4-6 more inches to grow in, a chinese UFO seems like an ok choice. Or, at least, not much else to choose from (if they don't want to spend more). Better than CFL. Easier to use than LED "lightbulbs" (which I like! but, it's a bit of drama getting it setup.).

captainmorgan said:

Tight spaces are where DIY and high efficiency LEDs are best. The lower you drive them the more efficient they are and the cooler they run and the closer they can be.

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Efficiency only matters for two reason:
1: heat
2: cost to operate

Again, the high efficiency LEDs take time to pay off, if you aren't going to do the time, don't pay the dime.

nomofatum said:

Efficiency only matters for two reason:
1: heat
2: cost to operate

Again, the high efficiency LEDs take time to pay off, if you aren't going to do the time, don't pay the dime.

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I give up.

captainmorgan said:

I give up.

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You should, one size doesn't fit all, time to take the blinders off.

nomofatum said:

You should, one size doesn't fit all, time to take the blinders off.

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Never said one size fits all. You just have a negative response to anything that's said,you must be a joy to be around. Do you have something against quality,were you raised in a Walmart.

Greengenes707 said:

No...they would be better off with hps of the same wattage the led they are looking at is...simple as that. If they want to be better than hps then there are options, that us "asshats" show people.

I have owned a stealth grow 602 and a 28w eBay panel...yes that's right, I bought one of those eBay things for my first ever led...and not even apollo status. Speaking of apollo's I have tested in person many different panels and lights...and I recommend the ones that lead in specs and show success in the grow room. It still takes the best in the industry to compare to hps in the grow room and on paper.

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28w ebay panel lololol...

captainmorgan said:

Never said one size fits all. You just have a negative response to anything that's said,you must be a joy to be around. Do you have something against quality,were you raised in a Walmart.

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Each case deserves it's own weighing and balancing. People have the assumption that Epistars are junk and will fail quickly, that isn't true, it's spread by people who either haven't used them or by people who used them in cheap crap fixtures powered by garbage drivers. Because a Cree puts out more light per watt doesn't make it higher quality, it makes it more efficient, those are very different things.

Both are well made products, one is more efficient. Both are very viable options. Stop trying to eliminate very good options for silly single minded reasons.

There shouldn't be a go-to answer for this question. We shouldn't just be recommending different numbers or sizes of Cree bulbs. Cree isn't always the best answer for LEDs. No lighting solution is the best answer even "most of the time."

Thecouchlock said:

Were you born a jackass?

I have a couple chinese lights as backups but my expensive shit shines. No one cares bro

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You didn't take my advise about burning one I see.

nomofatum said:

Each case deserves it's own weighing and balancing. People have the assumption that Epistars are junk and will fail quickly, that isn't true, it's spread by people who either haven't used them or by people who used them in cheap crap fixtures powered by garbage drivers. Because a Cree puts out more light per watt doesn't make it higher quality, it makes it more efficient, those are very different things.

Both are well made products, one is more efficient. Both are very viable options. Stop trying to eliminate very good options for silly single minded reasons.

There shouldn't be a go-to answer for this question. We shouldn't just be recommending different numbers or sizes of Cree bulbs. Cree isn't always the best answer for LEDs. No lighting solution is the best answer even "most of the time."

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You paint some pretty broad strokes yourself,how may I ask is a novice suppose to tell the good epistars from the bad when many of these companies will only give you the brand of LED and no other info or the many that out right lie,are you suppose to flip a coin. You seem to promote low quality over high in any circumstance,what if someone is rich and has a normal size grow,should he buy your recommended epistar panel. I tend to ask questions about their grow and their budget and go from there.