If you ignore RADIATION it will go away.
- Thread starter Flaming Pie
- Start date
Red1966
Well-Known Member
Who says we're not concerned? Calling for massive donations to Japan to combat the problem does nothing to solve the problem. Japan has the money, if needed, to do it themselves. What they lack is the knowledge.
Doer
Well-Known Member
No it not a solution, any more that the giant sponges that are inhabiting a waste dump off San Francisco. They are concentrators, also, but seem to be at the top the food chain way done there in the no light among the slowly leaching barrels.
But, that stuff is not liquid waste. Tools, clothing, materials, irradiated waste. AFIK, there is no machine that can de-salt seawater without taking all the salt. Then you will have pile of radio-salt that is highly dissloveable in rain water.
--------------------------------------
Radiation from the Fukushima Nuclear Plant disaster in Japan is now actively in the ecosystem all along the North American west coast even the sea weed is now radiated. The Vancouver Sun reported one year ago that the seaweed tested from waters off the coast of British Columbia were 4 times the amount considered safe. No further test results were released after the initial report.
Doer
Well-Known Member
They also lack leadership. They lack personal accountability. They lack individual initiative. They consider these strengths of their mono-culture.
Doer
Well-Known Member
Not used for....the way the arguments go here. Just pick a word, change it, as you see fit, and disregard the rest.
Used IN area denial.
And you don't think wide spary of fine particle lead is a problem, then of course, you don't see salting with DU as a problem.
Same scale. It has nothing to do with the radio-aspect it is a heavy metal poison, sprayed willi-nilly.
And you queer the discussion. It is not about Sophie the Sophist's Genocide.
It is about the use a poison, DU, just to be able to get the resin to set in a polymer (they say) Said poison to be sprayed willi-nilly after 48 hrs. A long term pollution that is not bound in devices. It is meant to spray.
You can take a shit on your idea opponents the same way they learned to shit on you. Good Job.
Doer
Well-Known Member
the ukrainians have set up a quarantine zone of ~15 mile radius around the plant, prohibiting all from entering, but really they dont have to prohibit shit. they just make sure they spot everybody passing nearby and point at the sign...
and everybody gets the message.
but they could simplify it, reducing costs, and increasing public awareness of the "Exclusion Zone by using THIS sign:
as far as Radiation in teh oceans...
thats not really as big a problem as is advertised.
the "radioactive water" is not actually radioactive water, it's water with radioactive particles suspended in it.
water cannot actually become ionized (cept deuterium but that shit is rare) by radiation, and the particles of concern are Alpha particles. anything massive enough to emit significant beta or gamma radiation would sink to the bottom and vent it's fury into the uncaring water.
alpha radiating particles (like the nuclear fallout from an atomic bomb) doesnt taint water like say... sodium flouride can, those heavy metals are not generally water soluble, and they can be eliminated by letting water stand for a few hours and pouring the now clean water off without disturbing the sediment, or by using a filter system like say, reverse osmosis.
the amount of radioactive material on the ocean floor is already VERY high, from centuries of erosion, (remember the shit is in the earth's crust) meteor strikes, cosmic dust, volcanism, deep sea geological vents, etc etc etc.
fukishima's contribution will be a single tear in a salty sea.
it's fucked up, and ideally this wont happen again, but then, ideally it should not have happened in the first place.
nothin's perfect, but this is NOT an "Extinction Level Event". me, im holding off on the pacific seafood for a while, but if youre really worried, a cheap geiger counter will reveal if your fish is pretty safe, or "safe" safe.
My GWAD, you are just back to peddling cheap ass comments.
If this burns another meter, to groundwater, there will be a steam explosion and enough radio material released to ruin the North Hemi.
ginjawarrior
Well-Known Member
tad hysterical today there doer
Doer
Well-Known Member
Folks, depite the ignorance of the ostrich....... We are not talking about massive radiation sickness.
We are discussing, I hope the very real possibility of a massive steam explosion that lifts, the most dirty material on earth, into the statosphere. At the same time, the same dirty material is flushed into the sea. Toyko would be evacuated, 18 million homeless.
Do you think those, on the West Coast of America, are immune to Panic? Or are we the world best at that?
We are discussing, I hope the very real possibility of a massive steam explosion that lifts, the most dirty material on earth, into the statosphere. At the same time, the same dirty material is flushed into the sea. Toyko would be evacuated, 18 million homeless.
Do you think those, on the West Coast of America, are immune to Panic? Or are we the world best at that?
ginjawarrior
Well-Known Member
"if" is the most factual word in there
Doer
Well-Known Member
The Chernobyl pile is 1/10 Fuk. It's level of dirty was not proceed dirty as Fuk.
Fuk has a broad. deep, ground water sheet flowing under, into the sea. The Chern, is contained and they can go deeper and contain deeper.
They don't have 18 million living there. No ground water problem.
Also, this is for the member that keeps try to say, Hiroshima was not so bad.
The plume of radioactive debris unleashed by the disaster at Chernobyl has been said[SUP][who?][/SUP] to be approximately equal[SUP][vague][/SUP] to the contamination that would occur from 400 Hiroshima bombs. Even if this is correct, it is difficult to usefully compare the two types of event. An atomic bomb delivers most of its radiation as a near-instantaneous burst of gamma-rays, followed by a much lesser dispersal of radioactive fallout consisting mainly of very short-lived radionuclides. A reactor explosion and fire, on the other hand, produces most of its contamination in the form of fallout, and this fallout, largely composed of melted or vaporised reactor fuel, tends to contain a much higher proportion of radionuclides with medium to long half-life. Levels of radioactivity in the vicinity of a recent atomic bomb blast thus rapidly diminish, while radioactive contamination from a Chernobyl-type accident is far more persistent.[SUP][11][/SUP]
ginjawarrior
Well-Known Member
bit touchy today there doer
i must have missed the source for this hysterical little tidbit
- the very real possibility of a massive steam explosion that lifts, the most dirty material on earth, into the statosphere. At the same time, the same dirty material is flushed into the sea. Toyko would be evacuated, 18 million homeless.
i must have missed the source for this hysterical little tidbit
Doer
Well-Known Member
You miss it all, Stain. There I fixed the color for you.
ginjawarrior
Well-Known Member
what are you 5?
it amuses me that i have gotten so deep under your skin
anyway back to this hysterical tidbit
- the very real possibility of a massive steam explosion that lifts, the most dirty material on earth, into the statosphere. At the same time, the same dirty material is flushed into the sea. Toyko would be evacuated, 18 million homeless.
you said you sourced it?
ginjawarrior
Well-Known Member
assertions without evidence can be dismissed without evidence
this hissy fit your having today is really funny
Doer
Well-Known Member
Butt Troll neutralized. We can move on. Is it really any wonder we don't see this in the Amercan Press in wartime?
http://rt.com/op-edge/tepco-fukushima-sea-water-reactor-194/
....been keeping an eye on developments, and it is quite clear that the reactors are no longer containing the molten fuel - some proportion of which is now in the ground underneath them. Both this material and the remaining material in what was the containment are very hot and are fissioning. Tepco is quite aware - and so is everyone else in the know - that the only hope of preventing what could become an open-air super reactor spectacular is to cool the fuel, the lumps of fuel distributed throughout the system, mainly in the holed pressure vessels, and also in the spent fuel tanks and in the ground under the reactors.
TEPCO's Fukushima Dai-ichi nuclear plant (AFP Photo / Noboru Hashimoto)
That all this is fissioning away merrily (though at a low level) is clear from the occasional reports of short half life nuclides like the radioXenons. The game is to prevent it all turning into the open air super reactor located somewhere under the ground. To do this, they have to pump vast amounts of water into the reactors, the fuel pond and generally all over the area where they think the stuff is or might be. This means seawater since luckily they are near the sea. But they are also unluckily near the sea - since you cannot pump the sea onto the land without it wanting to flow back into the sea.
Now a good proportion of the radioactive elements, the radionuclides, are soluble in water. The Caesiums 137 and 134, Strontiums 89 and 90, Barium 140, Radium 226, Lead 210, Rutheniums and Rhodiums, Silvers and Mercuries, Carbons and Tritiums, Iodines and noble gases Kryptons and Xenons merrily dissolve in the hot seawater. There is also a likelihood that the normally insoluble Uraniums, Plutoniums and Neptuniums will dissolve in seawater to some extent, because of the chloride ions. And if they dont, the micron and nano-particles of these materials will disperse in the water as colloidal suspensions. So a lot of this stuff gets into the sea. Of course, most of the fuss is being made by the Americans who are on the other side of the Pacific Ocean. How unfair that the USA should suffer from the Japanese affair, they think. And also feel a level of fear, underneath all this. As perhaps they should since it is their crappy reactors that blew up.
We hear that 400 tons of highly radioactive water is now escaping the barriers that Tepco erected and is reaching the sea. Japans prime minister, Shinzo Abe, said on August 7 that stabilizing Fukushima is our challenge. Tepco said, This is extremely serious we are unable to control radioactive water seeping out of the Fukushima plant. CNN quoted industry experts saying that Tepco has failed to address the problem...[the experts] question Tepcos ability to safely decommission the plant.
TEPCO's Fukushima Dai-ichi nuclear plant (AFP Photo / Noboru Hashimoto)
There are some things I want to say about all this. First is the inevitable discourse manipulation - something that we have seen in the media ever since this disaster occurred. Decommission the plant suggests some calm and ordered scientific process akin to shutting down and defueling an old reactor which has reached the end of its design life. It sparks images of a wise nuclear engineer in a lab coat consulting a document, discussing some issue with a worker in brilliant white overalls with a Tepco logo, wearing a white hard-hat. The reality is that this is a nightmare disaster area where no one has the slightest idea what to do and which has always been out of control. All that they can do is continue to pump in the seawater to hope that the various lumps of molten fuel will not increase their rate of fissioning. And pray. The water will then pick up the radionuclides and flow downhill back to the sea. Of course, they can put up a barrier; surround the plant with a wall. But eventually the water will fill up the pond and flow over the wall. All that water will create a soggy marsh and destabilize the foundations of the reactor buildings which will then collapse and prevent further cooling. Then the Spectacular. All this is predictable enough.
Let us look at some numbers. Four hundred tons of seawater a day are flowing into the sea. That is 400 cubic meters. In one year, that is 146,000 cubic meters. That is a pond 10 meters deep and 120 meters square. This will have to go on forever, a new pond every year, unless they can get the radioactive material out. But here is the other problem. They cant get close enough because the radiation levels are too high. The water itself is lethally radioactive. Gamma radiation levels tens of meters from the water are enormously high. No one can approach without being fried.
[h=2]'Anyone living within 1km of the coast near Fukushima should get out'[/h] But I want to make two other points. The first is that the Pacific Ocean is big enough for this level of release not to represent the global catastrophe that some are predicting. Lets get some scoping perspective on this. The volume of the North Pacific is 300 million cubic kilometers. The total inventory of the four Fukushima Daiichi reactors, including their spent fuel pools, is 732 tons of Uranium and Plutonium fuel which is largely insoluble in sea water. The inventory in terms of the medium half-life nuclides of radiological significance Cs-137, Cs-134 and Strontium-90, is 3 x 10[SUP]18[/SUP] becquerels (Bq) each. Adding these up gives about 10[SUP]19[/SUP] Bq. If we dissolve that entire amount into the Pacific, we get a mean concentration of 33 Bq per cubic meter - not great, but not lethal. Of course this is ridiculous since the catastrophe released less than 10[SUP]17[/SUP] Bq of these combined nuclides and even if all of this ends up in the sea (which it may do), the overall dilution will result in a concentration of 1 Bq per cubic meter. So the people in California can relax. In fact, the contamination of California and indeed the rest of the planet from the global weapons test fallout of 1959-1962 was far worse, and resulted in the cancer epidemic which began in 1980. The atmospheric megaton explosions drove the radioactivity into the stratosphere and the rain brought it back to earth to get into the milk, the food, the air, and our childrens bones. Kennedy and Kruschev called a halt in 1963, saving millions.
TEPCO's Fukushima Dai-ichi nuclear plant (AFP Photo / Noboru Hashimoto)
What we have here in Fukushima is more local, but still very deadly and certainly worse than Chernobyl since the populations are so large. And this brings me to my second point, and a warning to the Japanese people. The contamination of the sea results in adsorption of the radionuclides by the sand and silt on the coast and river estuaries. The east coast of Japan, the sediment and sand on the shores, will now be horribly radioactive. This material is re-suspended into the air through a process called sea-to-land transfer. The coastal air they inhale is laden with radioactive particles. I know about this since I was asked in 1998 by the Irish State to carry out a two-year study of the cancer effects of releases into the Irish Sea by the nuclear reprocessing plant at Sellafield. We looked at small area data leaked to us by the Welsh Cancer Registry covering the period of 1974-1989, when Sellafield was releasing significant amounts of radio-Caesium, radio-Strontium, and Plutonium. Results showed a remarkable and sharp 30 per cent increase in cancer rates in those living within 1km of the coast. The effect was very local and dropped away sharply at 2km. In trying to discover the cause, we came across measurements made by the UK Atomic Energy Research Establishment. Using special cloth filters, they had measured Plutonium in the air by distance from the contaminated coast. The trend was the same as the cancer trend, increasing sharply in the 1km strip near the coast. We later examined cancer rates in a higher resolution questionnaire study in Carlingford, Ireland. This clearly showed the effect increasing inside the 1km radius in the same way. The results were never published in scientific literature but were presented to the UK CERRIE committee and eventually made it into a book which I wrote in 2007 entitled, Wolves of Water. Make no mistake, this is a deadly effect. By 2003, we had found 20-fold excess risk of leukemia and brain tumours in the population of children on the north Wales coast. The children were denied of course by the Welsh Cancer Intelligence Unit that supplanted the old Welsh Cancer Registry - which had been shut down immediately after the data was released to us. We did publish this in scientific literature.
Nevertheless, the sea-to-land effect is real. And anyone living within 1km of the coast to at least 200km north or south of Fukushima should get out. They should evacuate inland. It is not eating the fish and shellfish that gets you - its breathing.
And what about the future? The future is bleak. I see no way of resolving the catastrophe. They will either have to pour water on the wreckage forever, and thus continue to contaminate the local sea, or find some more drastic immediate solution. I was told that US experts had the idea at the beginning of bombing the reactors into the harbour. Not so stupid in my opinion. That at least may enable them to get sufficiently close to the pieces to pick them up, and should also solve the cooling problem. Apparently (my contact said) the French argued them out of it because of the negative effect on nuclear energy (and Uranium shares).
Professor Christopher Busby from the European Committee on Radiation Risks for RT
http://rt.com/op-edge/tepco-fukushima-sea-water-reactor-194/
....been keeping an eye on developments, and it is quite clear that the reactors are no longer containing the molten fuel - some proportion of which is now in the ground underneath them. Both this material and the remaining material in what was the containment are very hot and are fissioning. Tepco is quite aware - and so is everyone else in the know - that the only hope of preventing what could become an open-air super reactor spectacular is to cool the fuel, the lumps of fuel distributed throughout the system, mainly in the holed pressure vessels, and also in the spent fuel tanks and in the ground under the reactors.
That all this is fissioning away merrily (though at a low level) is clear from the occasional reports of short half life nuclides like the radioXenons. The game is to prevent it all turning into the open air super reactor located somewhere under the ground. To do this, they have to pump vast amounts of water into the reactors, the fuel pond and generally all over the area where they think the stuff is or might be. This means seawater since luckily they are near the sea. But they are also unluckily near the sea - since you cannot pump the sea onto the land without it wanting to flow back into the sea.
Now a good proportion of the radioactive elements, the radionuclides, are soluble in water. The Caesiums 137 and 134, Strontiums 89 and 90, Barium 140, Radium 226, Lead 210, Rutheniums and Rhodiums, Silvers and Mercuries, Carbons and Tritiums, Iodines and noble gases Kryptons and Xenons merrily dissolve in the hot seawater. There is also a likelihood that the normally insoluble Uraniums, Plutoniums and Neptuniums will dissolve in seawater to some extent, because of the chloride ions. And if they dont, the micron and nano-particles of these materials will disperse in the water as colloidal suspensions. So a lot of this stuff gets into the sea. Of course, most of the fuss is being made by the Americans who are on the other side of the Pacific Ocean. How unfair that the USA should suffer from the Japanese affair, they think. And also feel a level of fear, underneath all this. As perhaps they should since it is their crappy reactors that blew up.
We hear that 400 tons of highly radioactive water is now escaping the barriers that Tepco erected and is reaching the sea. Japans prime minister, Shinzo Abe, said on August 7 that stabilizing Fukushima is our challenge. Tepco said, This is extremely serious we are unable to control radioactive water seeping out of the Fukushima plant. CNN quoted industry experts saying that Tepco has failed to address the problem...[the experts] question Tepcos ability to safely decommission the plant.
There are some things I want to say about all this. First is the inevitable discourse manipulation - something that we have seen in the media ever since this disaster occurred. Decommission the plant suggests some calm and ordered scientific process akin to shutting down and defueling an old reactor which has reached the end of its design life. It sparks images of a wise nuclear engineer in a lab coat consulting a document, discussing some issue with a worker in brilliant white overalls with a Tepco logo, wearing a white hard-hat. The reality is that this is a nightmare disaster area where no one has the slightest idea what to do and which has always been out of control. All that they can do is continue to pump in the seawater to hope that the various lumps of molten fuel will not increase their rate of fissioning. And pray. The water will then pick up the radionuclides and flow downhill back to the sea. Of course, they can put up a barrier; surround the plant with a wall. But eventually the water will fill up the pond and flow over the wall. All that water will create a soggy marsh and destabilize the foundations of the reactor buildings which will then collapse and prevent further cooling. Then the Spectacular. All this is predictable enough.
Let us look at some numbers. Four hundred tons of seawater a day are flowing into the sea. That is 400 cubic meters. In one year, that is 146,000 cubic meters. That is a pond 10 meters deep and 120 meters square. This will have to go on forever, a new pond every year, unless they can get the radioactive material out. But here is the other problem. They cant get close enough because the radiation levels are too high. The water itself is lethally radioactive. Gamma radiation levels tens of meters from the water are enormously high. No one can approach without being fried.
[h=2]'Anyone living within 1km of the coast near Fukushima should get out'[/h] But I want to make two other points. The first is that the Pacific Ocean is big enough for this level of release not to represent the global catastrophe that some are predicting. Lets get some scoping perspective on this. The volume of the North Pacific is 300 million cubic kilometers. The total inventory of the four Fukushima Daiichi reactors, including their spent fuel pools, is 732 tons of Uranium and Plutonium fuel which is largely insoluble in sea water. The inventory in terms of the medium half-life nuclides of radiological significance Cs-137, Cs-134 and Strontium-90, is 3 x 10[SUP]18[/SUP] becquerels (Bq) each. Adding these up gives about 10[SUP]19[/SUP] Bq. If we dissolve that entire amount into the Pacific, we get a mean concentration of 33 Bq per cubic meter - not great, but not lethal. Of course this is ridiculous since the catastrophe released less than 10[SUP]17[/SUP] Bq of these combined nuclides and even if all of this ends up in the sea (which it may do), the overall dilution will result in a concentration of 1 Bq per cubic meter. So the people in California can relax. In fact, the contamination of California and indeed the rest of the planet from the global weapons test fallout of 1959-1962 was far worse, and resulted in the cancer epidemic which began in 1980. The atmospheric megaton explosions drove the radioactivity into the stratosphere and the rain brought it back to earth to get into the milk, the food, the air, and our childrens bones. Kennedy and Kruschev called a halt in 1963, saving millions.
What we have here in Fukushima is more local, but still very deadly and certainly worse than Chernobyl since the populations are so large. And this brings me to my second point, and a warning to the Japanese people. The contamination of the sea results in adsorption of the radionuclides by the sand and silt on the coast and river estuaries. The east coast of Japan, the sediment and sand on the shores, will now be horribly radioactive. This material is re-suspended into the air through a process called sea-to-land transfer. The coastal air they inhale is laden with radioactive particles. I know about this since I was asked in 1998 by the Irish State to carry out a two-year study of the cancer effects of releases into the Irish Sea by the nuclear reprocessing plant at Sellafield. We looked at small area data leaked to us by the Welsh Cancer Registry covering the period of 1974-1989, when Sellafield was releasing significant amounts of radio-Caesium, radio-Strontium, and Plutonium. Results showed a remarkable and sharp 30 per cent increase in cancer rates in those living within 1km of the coast. The effect was very local and dropped away sharply at 2km. In trying to discover the cause, we came across measurements made by the UK Atomic Energy Research Establishment. Using special cloth filters, they had measured Plutonium in the air by distance from the contaminated coast. The trend was the same as the cancer trend, increasing sharply in the 1km strip near the coast. We later examined cancer rates in a higher resolution questionnaire study in Carlingford, Ireland. This clearly showed the effect increasing inside the 1km radius in the same way. The results were never published in scientific literature but were presented to the UK CERRIE committee and eventually made it into a book which I wrote in 2007 entitled, Wolves of Water. Make no mistake, this is a deadly effect. By 2003, we had found 20-fold excess risk of leukemia and brain tumours in the population of children on the north Wales coast. The children were denied of course by the Welsh Cancer Intelligence Unit that supplanted the old Welsh Cancer Registry - which had been shut down immediately after the data was released to us. We did publish this in scientific literature.
Nevertheless, the sea-to-land effect is real. And anyone living within 1km of the coast to at least 200km north or south of Fukushima should get out. They should evacuate inland. It is not eating the fish and shellfish that gets you - its breathing.
And what about the future? The future is bleak. I see no way of resolving the catastrophe. They will either have to pour water on the wreckage forever, and thus continue to contaminate the local sea, or find some more drastic immediate solution. I was told that US experts had the idea at the beginning of bombing the reactors into the harbour. Not so stupid in my opinion. That at least may enable them to get sufficiently close to the pieces to pick them up, and should also solve the cooling problem. Apparently (my contact said) the French argued them out of it because of the negative effect on nuclear energy (and Uranium shares).
Professor Christopher Busby from the European Committee on Radiation Risks for RT
ginjawarrior
Well-Known Member
wow when your not having a hissy fit you can provide links
perhaps you should write to the author about his "down playing" of the "extinction event"
ginjawarrior
Well-Known Member
ah yes childish insults the fall back position when you realise you were wrong
Flaming Pie
Well-Known Member
I am not worried about an Extinction event. That was Doer not me.
I also know that the particles are not water soluble.
How much radiation can fish and water mammals take before it is a lethal dose?
I also know that the particles are not water soluble.
How much radiation can fish and water mammals take before it is a lethal dose?
Flaming Pie
Well-Known Member
So the british made toothpaste not safe for use. Unless you want teeth like the british. lol
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