Is the Rev full of shit about humic and fulvic acids?

Snafu1236 said:

No, he really is not wrong about everything he stated....it is just wildly blown out of context.

He was careful in how he chose his words...and those word choices should not be overlooked (such things as "pour on" and "heavily chelated". He does not say that humics and fulvics are an absolute no-no, he is merely saying they should be used in lesser amounts...because in higher/extremwe concentrations it will kill off most of the microbial life...and he is right about that.

Go dump a bottle of Hygrozyme in a gallon of water and water your plants...I guaranteee you that you will have some major problems

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... do you know the dilution for hygrozyme? and that its not a chelating agent? Not comparable to a fulvic substances. your example fails. might as well compared fulvic/humic substances to draino.

Buggins said:

I don't know, that's not what I get from the article. Take this quote for example:

• If you try and use that philosophy of force feeding (chelating) the plants using organic acids like humic, fulvic, and ascorbic acids, in a living container soil mix, you will severely damage the whole bio-equilibrium and destroy all the supernatural qualities your livings soil mix would otherwise be capable of​

  
  
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Seems to me like he's saying if you use bottle organic nutes, it's a bad idea. And the fact that he repeats it so many times too, it's like he's trying to drive home the point that bottle nutes are not good, even if they're organic.

I've read and re-read the article many times, and I honestly don't think I'm taking anything out of context.

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Why do you take what he says and extrapolate your own conclusions of his meaning beyond the utter simplicity of it? From that quote, the information I gathered is to not add organic acids to your medium ( in order to rapidly decompose the organic matter into absorbable ions - a process usually reserved for the natural balance of humic/fulvic found int he dirt and enzymes or byproducts of bacteria and myc) because it will fuck up your bacteria and myc colonies, and maybe kill some worms and bugs and stuff.

...regarding bubbling nute tea, I'm pretty sure thats just a result of there being compounds with detergent/soapy qualities present in the solution

thank u for posting these eye opening tidbits. chelated nutes seem to just be nutes tea that have been decomposed further an extra step by adding acids to them, and waiting for it to neutralize. and maybe u just keep doing that incrementally until it fails to neutralize the acid any longer, and then u can say ur product is 100% chelated or whatever marketing dept wants to put on there lol howerver i think sometimes they choose to add too much acid just in case or to help breakdown your medium also, and then they can also say "contains fulvic acid" or wahtever on the ingredients so u should not use those is what hes tryin to get across

It appears this person Rez is full of fact and quite knowledgeable! As an aside, If I started a thread called "Is Buggins Full of Shit" im pretty sure you, like any rational human being, would interpret that as a personal attack.

and my thoughts on the nute with less than 1% chlorine ....its to keep it from breeding bacteria while in transport/shipping/on the shelf...producing co2 and blowing up the bottle. It is clearly in a trace amount and I think we've all heard of techniques for getting rid of smellable chlorine traces from tap water....u can apply same principles to most liquids...

Pretty much BS. Somewhere between farmers actually harming soil biology with the use of pesticides MJ growers have equated the use of 'synthetic' nutes causing the same damage. Yes very high ppm feedings of some nutrients may harm some bennies but a healthy soil eco system will quickly recover...many of the bugs living in our medium wait for those nutes, its what for dinner......

matt rize said:

... Do you know the dilution for hygrozyme? And that its not a chelating agent? Not comparable to a fulvic substances. Your example fails. Might as well compared fulvic/humic substances to draino.

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you gonna 'splode!!!

Hehe, now I am being taken out of context...open your eyes people!

I stated I did not agree with everything he said, but it is important to note he is not way off basis.

The Rev, to me, sounds like an organic purist...there is nothing wrong with that...it is merely a different view on gardening...that is all.

To lambast the situation and call blasphemy is both ignorant and arrogant...he is not wrong, it is merely his view and opinion.

I found I have learned the most in my life whenever I disagreed with someone, then came to understand why they did what they do....it has made me into a better person as well as a better gardener.

I hope people can get the context of which he is saying. Though i do not subscribe to everything he states, I do believe that he is conveying a purist form of organic gardening...and IME I have had better results using humic and fulvic acid with straight HPS(no MH) in indoor gardening.

However, also in my experience, I have come to understand that nothing beats the rain, in an organic soil, outside under the natural sun. That is simply the best way of growing, hands down, for flavors yield and scent.

Matt Rize said:

... do you know the dilution for hygrozyme? and that its not a chelating agent? Not comparable to a fulvic substances. your example fails. might as well compared fulvic/humic substances to draino.

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Hehe, you're right Matt, it was a bad example used here, and I did fail in the use of providing a proper example. I appreciate you pointing out the inaccuracy and clarifying the context.

To provide further clarification.

For a humic I prefer: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0057KVO0S/ref=oh_o02_s00_i00_details
For a humic soil amendment, I prefer:http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004JKFOSU/ref=oh_o03_s00_i00_details

For fulvic, I prefer: http://www.amazon.com/Grandma-Enggys-Fulvic-Acid-liter/dp/B001GBVLSM/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&qid=1329664796&sr=8-8

I use them quite consistently throughout the grow.

Matt, I would like to hear your take on the article.

P.S. I do know Hygrozyme's dilution rate and I do understand that it is not a specific chelating agent. It was an honest mistake.

dtp5150 said:

and my thoughts on the nute with less than 1% chlorine ....its to keep it from breeding bacteria while in transport/shipping/on the shelf...producing co2 and blowing up the bottle. It is clearly in a trace amount and I think we've all heard of techniques for getting rid of smellable chlorine traces from tap water....u can apply same principles to most liquids...

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Why buy kelp with Chlorine in it?

Makes zero sense to me....there are too many products that make it to the shelf without blowing up...and no chlorine.

Anybody got a pic of flowers in MH?

Buddy Hemphill said:

Maxicrop liquid has CHLORINE in it....

bad shit!

Chlorine WILL KILL your bennies. This isnt even debatable.

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The Cl in Maxicrop liquid seaweed is not harmful; not to plants and not to beneficial microbes at such a low concentration. Chlorine is an element like nitrogen, phosphorous, potassium, etc. and it too is required for certain biological functions although to a much lesser extent.

The Chlorine in Maxicrop will be in the form of chloride anions (Cl-) which plants can actually absorb and utilize. The bad forms of chlorine are disinfectants such as the diatomic molecule and toxic gas Cl[SUB]2. This is two chlorine [/SUB]atoms weakly bonded together, highly reactive and not found in nature. Chlorine disinfectants used in water treatment are those such as hypochlorous acid (bleach) and chloramines, which steadily release free chlorine gas into the water for the purpose of reducing microbial activity.

This all goes to show that the behaviors of compounds (a substance that has two or more elements) varies greatly. Mercury and chromium for instance are heavy metals that come in various forms, some much more toxic than others. One form of chromium is a nutrient while another is very toxic. The cyano group, an important part of the highly deadly poisons of the cyanide family, is nothing more than a carbon triple bonded to a nitrogen. Table salt is merely an ionic compound consisting of Na[SUP]+[/SUP](sodium) and Cl[SUP]-[/SUP](chlorine).

Nullis said:

The Cl in Maxicrop liquid seaweed is not harmful; not to plants and not to beneficial microbes at such a low concentration. Chlorine is an element like nitrogen, phosphorous, potassium, etc. and it too is required for certain biological functions although to a much lesser extent.

The Chlorine in Maxicrop will be in the form of chloride anions (Cl-) which plants can actually absorb and utilize. The bad forms of chlorine are disinfectants such as the diatomic molecule and toxic gas Cl[SUB]2. This is two chlorine [/SUB]atoms weakly bonded together, highly reactive and not found in nature. Chlorine disinfectants used in water treatment are those such as hypochlorous acid (bleach) and chloramines, which steadily release free chlorine gas into the water for the purpose of reducing microbial activity.

This all goes to show that the behaviors of compounds (a substance that has two or more elements) varies greatly. Mercury and chromium for instance are heavy metals that come in various forms, some much more toxic than others. One form of chromium is a nutrient while another is very toxic. The cyano group, an important part of the highly deadly poisons of the cyanide family, is nothing more than a carbon triple bonded to a nitrogen. Table salt is merely an ionic compound consisting of Na[SUP]+[/SUP](sodium) and Cl[SUP]-[/SUP](chlorine).

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Thank you for FACTS TRUTH and REAL KNOWLEDGE. jus sayin

Nullis said:

The Cl in Maxicrop liquid seaweed is not harmful; not to plants and not to beneficial microbes at such a low concentration. Chlorine is an element like nitrogen, phosphorous, potassium, etc. and it too is required for certain biological functions although to a much lesser extent.

The Chlorine in Maxicrop will be in the form of chloride anions (Cl-) which plants can actually absorb and utilize. The bad forms of chlorine are disinfectants such as the diatomic molecule and toxic gas Cl[SUB]2. This is two chlorine [/SUB]atoms weakly bonded together, highly reactive and not found in nature. Chlorine disinfectants used in water treatment are those such as hypochlorous acid (bleach) and chloramines, which steadily release free chlorine gas into the water for the purpose of reducing microbial activity.

This all goes to show that the behaviors of compounds (a substance that has two or more elements) varies greatly. Mercury and chromium for instance are heavy metals that come in various forms, some much more toxic than others. One form of chromium is a nutrient while another is very toxic. The cyano group, an important part of the highly deadly poisons of the cyanide family, is nothing more than a carbon triple bonded to a nitrogen. Table salt is merely an ionic compound consisting of Na[SUP]+[/SUP](sodium) and Cl[SUP]-[/SUP](chlorine).

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What percentage of chlorine does it take to kill all the flagellates in a fungally dominant ACT....not a bacterially dominant EWC ACT?

Can you provide a link to back this up?

kite high said:

thank you for facts truth and real knowledge. Jus sayin

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......
Lol
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It's basic chemistry. The chloride ion is elemental chlorine with an extra electron, which makes it an anion (Cl[SUP]-[/SUP]). Its physical/chemical properties are quite different than elemental chlorine or chlorine gas. Chlorides are abundant in nature and especially in seawater.

Basically there are perfectly natural chloride salts in the product. For example you may have some potassium chloride, which is a potassium (K[SUP]+[/SUP] cation) and a Cl[SUP]-[/SUP] anion, in solution the ions dissociate. Both of these ions are available for plants to absorb. Also keep in mind that while straight Maxicrop Liquid Seaweed may contain 1% chlorine (as chloride ions), you wouldn't pour straight Maxicrop on your plants. You mix a cap with a gallon of water and you have a solution that is now significantly less than 1%... probably even less than .05%.

http://www.tetrachemicals.com/Products/Agriculture/Chloride_-_An_Essential_Element.aqf

So, according to Dr William Jackson, humic and fulvic acids encourages microbiology and has 5,000 calories a gram...............http://ecands.net/pdf/resources/oscsynopsis.pdf

Buggins... I didn't read the Rev's article. But anyone who says Humic Acids and Fulvic Acids (both byproducts of composting), aren't a good thing, is completely wrong.
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I keep compost going all the time, specifically to have an organic source of humic acids, which helps promote a healthy rootzone, full of micro-life.
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Maybe he meant chemicals like EDTA, a common Chelating Agent, added to liquid ferts to keep Iron soluble, and even found in some cheaply made Humic & Fulvic Acids.
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Chemical Chelating Agents, aren't the best thing for micro-life, but they're not going to kill off all of them if used within reason.
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Simply doing a by-weekly application of Compost Tea, will offset the damage EDTA does, help flush it from the rootzone, and makes for healthy plants.
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Compost topdressed, or made into tea is hard to beat......
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I have read Rev state before that for breeders it is probably best not to use humic or fulvic acids or any chelating agents for that matter, or if you are going to use them on plants you plan to breed with do so sparingly. The reasoning for this is sound: if you're going to be breeding plants then you probably want to choose the ones that fare well with very little outside inputs/care, aside from the other traits you're breeding for (smell, stature, potency, pest resistance, etc).

Synthetic chelating agents force feed plants. Humic and fulvic acids help shuttle nutrients into plant roots as well, and help make nutrients more mobile within the plant, but they also play other roles in the soil food web.

Let's say you have mold or pest resistance as a breeding goal. You wouldn't want to spray your potential breeding material with pesticides or fungicides because then you wouldn't know which plants possess any natural resistance. In the same respect if you're using chelating agents, or additional humic/fulvic acids, you're not going to be able to tell which plants handle nutrients efficiently by themselves.

Buddy Hemphill:7149196 said:

Anybody got a pic of flowers in MH?

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SunshineDaydream, an Appalachia hybrid grown under a eye horti super blue halide adv. spectrum bulb (1000w). The $250 bulb is well worth the price. Overall, the buds are at the same weight as an hps but the trich's are so much more stacked! It also seams to have made the trich heads swell a little bigger with the eye horti super blue halide compared to an hps bulb of the same watt. Ive only used this bulb for one flower cycle so far, but wont be changing back!

The Rev has some interesting grow techniques that he uses and teaches. He is the reason I decided to spend $250 on the overly expensive eye horti super blue bulb! From his articles, and from talking to him on facebook. If you want to ask him questions, just friend him on FB. He doesnt hide from anyone questioning his methods, he will answer what you ask. The Rev is a stand up dude just throwing a rope to anyone who needs the help.

Humic acid is supposed to boost how quickly things become available to the plants...you can get humic acid from any old decaying organic matter...so...when I add compost to my old soil, I am adding humic acid...I don't see how it can kill the microbiology..another hit in this armor...I use the GO line with other organic soil amendments, given I don't often use the Diamond black, but once or twice a year my soil will get a dose...I keep reusing the same soil I started with 3 years ago...of course it isnt recognizable as the same soil, but I am absolutely sure it is chock full of microbes...simply because if I add any nutes to my plants other than carb boosters they act like they are overfert and also because I grow a good deal of mycelia on the top of my soil...when a large plant finishes I rip out the plant and leave the roots..I add all manner of things good for plants, guanos, and compost, worm castings, worms, lime, leaves, composted manure, etc...then I let that sit til i need it...If all my soil is in rotation then I will go buy a new bag of roots organic of FFOF...most of my soil started out as FFOF, but overtime as I said it is now just a mismatched blend of awesomeness as far as me and my plants are concerned...
So, if the Diamond Black is killing my bennies, then why are my pots still growing mushrooms?

ooh and I have some pics of a plant at 5 weeks flower that was totally done under MH, and not a fancy special one either...just a regular old 400w MH, probably a cheap one at that..I think the replacement bulbs are like $30

Anyway 5 weeks of flower nothing but MH for whole life...DNA Genetics Rocklock...with all the GO line and nothing else...