His grow isn't that hard to build. You can make a vertical system that fills an entire room for probably around what he paid to make his - the trick is to use a laser level, 2x4's and corrugated pipe. The corrugated pipe is cheaper than PVC, but more importantly, it bends. You don't need any fittings, you lay it on a 2 by 4 and use copious amounts of electrical tape to shape it.
Is vertical all it's cracked up to be?
- Thread starter legallyflying
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His grow isn't that hard to build. You can make a vertical system that fills an entire room for probably around what he paid to make his - the trick is to use a laser level, 2x4's and corrugated pipe. The corrugated pipe is cheaper than PVC, but more importantly, it bends. You don't need any fittings, you lay it on a 2 by 4 and use copious amounts of electrical tape to shape it.
That makes no sense - you got .6 g/watt so you your certain that 2 g/watt is doable? That's like saying your dick is 6 inches long, so believe Heath when he says his is 20
It *probably* is possible - hell, there growing blue potatoes. At a certain point though, it's easier to just buy a ton of lights and E&F tables - I'd rather have .7 g/watt off a 10kw system than 1.5g/watt off a 2kw system.
OGEvilgenius
Well-Known Member
Tibberous, you're just wrong. Sorry.
I've shown you objectively how and you obviously know nothing at all about SOG. The guys pulling the biggest yields have 0 veg time. Fact.
I've shown you objectively how and you obviously know nothing at all about SOG. The guys pulling the biggest yields have 0 veg time. Fact.
Biggest yields per watt maybe - I think the guys getting 5-6 pounds per plant in northern cali are doing a little better overall.
I don't even know what your saying I'm wrong about - I never said vertical couldn't yield or that you needed a long veg time, all I said was I didn't think the tradeoffs were worth the extra bit you gain by not using a reflector.
OGEvilgenius
Well-Known Member
You haven't said anything here. You're basically trolling. You called Heath (a guy with so much more rep than whoever the fuck you are it's kind of hilarious) a liar. You have said there's no real gains - obviously there are unless you think (conservatively) an almost 60% increase in canopy size is not a real gain.
Then you said the following which demonstrated your ignorance:
You know why you don't see journals with people doing large plant counts and no veg? Because they face serious fucking jail time.
And the guys getting 6lbs off a tree in Cali largely aren't doing it indoors, so it's nice you brought it up, but I'm not sure what the point was. Although, worth noting, Heath pulled down almost 5 off one of his indoor tree grows.
Also, as far as others not reporting 2g/w - this is also untrue. There are journals where this mark is hit. There are journals where the 3g/w mark is almost hit. And these are conservative journals (ie: they don't have the plant counts guys looking to make huge bank do).
Then you said the following which demonstrated your ignorance:
You know why you don't see journals with people doing large plant counts and no veg? Because they face serious fucking jail time.
And the guys getting 6lbs off a tree in Cali largely aren't doing it indoors, so it's nice you brought it up, but I'm not sure what the point was. Although, worth noting, Heath pulled down almost 5 off one of his indoor tree grows.
Also, as far as others not reporting 2g/w - this is also untrue. There are journals where this mark is hit. There are journals where the 3g/w mark is almost hit. And these are conservative journals (ie: they don't have the plant counts guys looking to make huge bank do).
OGEvilgenius
Well-Known Member
Untrue completely. Easier to cool than setups with reflectors.
Some are, some aren't.
Depends on your system. Of course plants tend to grow into the light. You think that doesn't happen horizontally? Why do you suppose SCROG was created?
No, it doesn't.
Insert wild ass random bullshit here. Please, show us some evidence. Bulbs that are designed to be hung vertically are going to perform as intended hung vertically.
Again, more bullshit.
You grow big colas (in most SOGs). Big colas are easier to trim. Assuming you are doing a SOG. And yes, you do have to trim more because you yield a lot more.
But... you don't have to grow SOG style vertically.
Did that to about 6 of 8 bulbs - they still work, but the inside has a semi-opaque coating.
And I brought up cali growers because for the $1,000+ worth of PVC heath spent on his space ship he could have bought three more thousand watt lights and just went bigger.
And, if you scale heaths system up to room-size (about 7,000 watts), you end up needing 550 clones - federal limit is 99.
So yeah, flame for no reason. Your not even running hydro, no wonder your not having problems cooling. Your system probably doesn't have any of the problems I listed, but it's small and soil. The second you make it out of PVC pipe you loose the ability to move the plants away from the light, that's what causes the bulk of the problems I mentioned. If you make it big, you end up with a hallway, and that makes it hard to get to the plants once there big - you have a foot of plants on each side and lights hanging down the middle.
Go ahead and reply "bullshit", since apparently your personal experience is the only thing that is correct.
The New Jim Jones
Well-Known Member
really it makes no difference, its just growers choice. People get great harvests off of both vertical and horizontal, it honestly depends most on growers experience
OGEvilgenius
Well-Known Member
What kind of bulb? Not all are designed to be hung vertically. I've never had an issue, but mine are designed to be hung this way.
Be specific then, don't talk in generalities and make broad sweeping statements with no truth to them at all.
Or you can grow trees like most guys in BC do with bulbs hung in between them and still do better than guys using hoods.
Most of what you wrote WAS bullshit. Sorry if this offends you. Your criticisms all relate to a specific system (and may or may not have any weight based on the guy you are criticizings situation). But you're using a large brush to make them.
Everything I stated was objectively true, by the way. Not opinion. Just facts. Hoods trap heat. Of course they do, they are metallic and once the metal heats up it acts like a heating element. Better to just exhaust the air... anyway. I don't think anything bothers me or pisses me off more than people who write with ignorant authority.
Both the generic ones that came with the ballasts, and HTG ones that actually say there for vertical. Oddly, only 600's ever did that, never 1000s - they were straight HPS bulbs in HPS only digital ballasts.
And I said in my first post: "a well-designed system can overcome some of these issues".
But I think anyone designing a system should at least consider them and weight the pros and cons. It SUCKS to spend time and money on a system and then have to rip it apart because of a design flaw.
And I said in my first post: "a well-designed system can overcome some of these issues".
But I think anyone designing a system should at least consider them and weight the pros and cons. It SUCKS to spend time and money on a system and then have to rip it apart because of a design flaw.
OGEvilgenius
Well-Known Member
That I can get behind. I've never had an issue with my bulbs like that. I am unfamiliar with HTG. I like Ushio as they are made in Germany (I think, I just know it's not in China) and seem to put out a good spectrum.
Big heating problem with a setup like Heaths (although probably not with Healths, since he wraped the entire thing in reflective insulation) is that you create a huge amount of surface area for the light to heat up. This doesn't matter once your plants grow a little and the canopy starts absorbing the light, but it can be a big problem before that.
I've never had a problem with air temps - water temps are a bitch though.
OGEvilgenius
Well-Known Member
Don't spread information that is wrong. Please.
Sorry, but ignorance pisses me off, especially if the person being ignorant is acting like they're correct. For example your initial post had some information that was relevant filled in with information that was flat out wrong.
I haven't called anyone any names. I'm simply stating facts and I don't pull punches, sorry. I could have changed my tone, but like I said, my biggest pet peeve in the world is information that isn't accurate being pushed as truth.
Moreover, some of you were calling Heath Robinson a fraud, when he's clearly been shown not to be. You liked a post where it was stated his grows were bullshit. This to me, indicates you do not have an open mind are just talking shit for no good reason because those grows were legit and really happened.
My apologies.
Opm
Active Member
- "You will only get good useable light in 16 sq ft using a hood and reflector horizontally. You will get 25 (approximately) sq ft going vertically (using your 2 ft limit, I'd say it's a little bigger than that, but not much).
Someone else comments on light intensity being less... not true. You can stick your plants closer to compensate."
Absolutely wrong. Why do they put reflectors on car headlights? It intensifies the beam. That is pretty common sense. A reflector increases the lumens/luxs distributed by limiting the angle of diffusion. And As I said, the coverage area is smaller but the light is more powerful in that area. If you want to move plants closer in one scenario and not the other than you don't have a properly controlled experiment. Everything must be kept the same except the bulb orientation to have a true measure of vertical/horizontal efficiency. The horizontal guy can clearly move his plants closer as well.
And I liked his post for elaborating on the work involved with vertical, not his bashing of heath. I clearly said that vertical grows are more efficient but harder to take advantage of that efficiency.
legallyflying
Well-Known Member
I think you just hit the nail on the head for me... more efficient but harder to take advantage of that efficiency. While I agree that training plants around a central bulb or doing some kind of specialized many many small plant operation would rock in vertical, I am pretty much limited to growing trees. The options at this point are huge untrained trees with vertical bulbs or big ass scrogs with horizontal bulbs.
It seems to me that it is hard..very hard to take advantage of bare vert using big trees for the reasons I stated earlier. You have to have them close to the lights and the insides of the trees get shaded very quickly. While there is obviously a little amount of light lost through using a hood (they don't magnify the lights power, the simply reflect it in a particular direction). So when you are using a bulb in a hood, the light that is traveling up to the reflective surface and then bounced back towards the plants loses its intensity as per the inverse square law. But given that this distance is only like 8" in your typical hood, it seems worth it to me have all the light concentrate on a single plane of SCROG'd tops instead of casting half of the bulbs power on a cylinder object (the trees are generally round.. not flat so the closet point gets lots of light and then the strength diminishes with length as you travel away from the bulb.
Hope this makes sense.
Can we let this thread die now?
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It seems to me that it is hard..very hard to take advantage of bare vert using big trees for the reasons I stated earlier. You have to have them close to the lights and the insides of the trees get shaded very quickly. While there is obviously a little amount of light lost through using a hood (they don't magnify the lights power, the simply reflect it in a particular direction). So when you are using a bulb in a hood, the light that is traveling up to the reflective surface and then bounced back towards the plants loses its intensity as per the inverse square law. But given that this distance is only like 8" in your typical hood, it seems worth it to me have all the light concentrate on a single plane of SCROG'd tops instead of casting half of the bulbs power on a cylinder object (the trees are generally round.. not flat so the closet point gets lots of light and then the strength diminishes with length as you travel away from the bulb.
Hope this makes sense.
Can we let this thread die now?
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Kite High
Well-Known Member
Try both vertical and horizontal and grow trees. Is what I do. Albeit in multiple 5x5x9 rooms. Does well ime. See below. Totally sealed, tank co2 and a mini-split for each, 1600 watts light total. $80/mo elec per room. 20lbs. co2 tank lasts over 2 months. Titan 3 co2 controllers. Yield 3/4 - 1 pound per plant dependent upon strain. Hope it helps.(two overhead horizontals on movers)
I'm doing my first vertical with a 1K. I have a couple plants next to the vertical under a 600 for comparison. Maybe it's wishful thinking but I think the production per watt is higher in the vertical setup. The vertical appears to have more than twice the growth of the 600 flat.
Essentially I have two scrogs, one on each side of the light.
I read somewhere that you loose 20% of your light with a reflector, and then probably another 10% wasted on the walls. My vertical seems to trap a lot of light compared to flat grows.
I have seen nothing to suggest Heath is a fraud. His designs however are a bit beyond my patience. I also am scared by the not able to adjust distance to light thing. I've pulled anywhere from 12 oz to 28 oz from a 1000 watt flat. My goal with growing vertically was to be able to consistantly pull .8 to 1 grams per watt, ie 28 oz.
What I've found so far. It took no extra effort to go vertical. The plants don't seem to mind. If I pull over 22 oz I'll probably keep doing it this way.
Essentially I have two scrogs, one on each side of the light.
I read somewhere that you loose 20% of your light with a reflector, and then probably another 10% wasted on the walls. My vertical seems to trap a lot of light compared to flat grows.
I have seen nothing to suggest Heath is a fraud. His designs however are a bit beyond my patience. I also am scared by the not able to adjust distance to light thing. I've pulled anywhere from 12 oz to 28 oz from a 1000 watt flat. My goal with growing vertically was to be able to consistantly pull .8 to 1 grams per watt, ie 28 oz.
What I've found so far. It took no extra effort to go vertical. The plants don't seem to mind. If I pull over 22 oz I'll probably keep doing it this way.
OGEvilgenius
Well-Known Member
All this is true, except the reality is plants only need X amount of light based on other limiting factors, so it's not really worth mentioning. Vertical grows hit the sweet spot, yes reflectors intensify light, but there's only so much you need anyway. So it's pointless. And you can only get your plants somewhat close to a reflector before they get burned or bleached. You can get them a lot closer in a vertical setup before they are burned or bleached and you still have a bigger canopy. So it's overall not a strong point worth even mentioning, although people mention it all the time.
As to the guy and growing trees vertically - there's a thread by Heath on here, you might wanna check out. He's growing trees that he's pulling multiple lbs off of. Using bare bulb 600's.