It's A Fuct World

ANC said:

Thanks Al, I'll try to get the pH down a little more. Our tap water has a pH of about 9.2 so I was pretty greatfull for the nutes pulling it to 6.3.
I'm also sure there should be enough calcium in the water alone, as we do get scale buildup in the shower and kettle, for some reason my ppm meter says its only 55ppm though, don't trust the meter, even though its new.

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Have you calibrated the pH meter with (at least) 4.0 & 7.0 reference solutions? 9.2 is pretty high. However, I'd expect a rather high pH if you are seeing scale buildups. I would also expect a much higher TDS figure than 55ppm for the tapwater. You can get reference solutions for the TDS meter to test & see if it is telling you the truth.

How do you feel about foliar feeding of Epsom salt, how regular would one do it, and for how long would one keep it up? Been seeing it mentioned as a solution for calcium lockout/deficiency.

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I've never foliar fed a plant in an indoor grow op. Never had any need to do so. Moreover, wetting down foliage may assist in formation of powdery mildew- indoor ops naturally tend toward high humidity anyway. Your plants should be able to obtain all the nutrients they need via roots; about the only time I can think of that foliar feeding would become necessary is when there's root system damage. From the pix you've posted, I'd say your plants are in pretty good shape- I wouldn't be too worried. Correcting the pH to 5.8 should make your new growth look better- but don't expect old growth to change appearance.

Sog will be done in 2L bottles, I have nice deep crates that can hold 23 of them. So, batches will be about 12 plants each. So far I've been watering manualy so no pathogen issues yet, but I have timers, and pumps and stuff. If anything I tend to be somewhat on the cautious side with watering less rather than more. I manualy submerge the pots in a slightly larger container, then lift them on stands to drain out, after which they are good for 30 to 36 hours. I have quite a bit of the coarse vermiculite in there to help with oxygen availability. The dipping and lifting does help remove alot of the small particulate though, but I will rig up a filtering system for the pump when I use it.

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I really have to encourage you to find an automated way of watering. Automation with pumps & timers will lead to more consistent results- it will also prevent the possibility of damaging plants by moving them around frequently.

Being in a country with no legal framework for use, means no access to hydroshops, (well technicaly there are one or 2 but they are a ripoff, and you are lucky if you can get some bulbs and hydroton from them). I guess I will go the import route once I know how much nutes I need to order to have a full regimen for a 3 month period, as I can't run to the shop for a refill.

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Poor you, sorry to hear it. There's no legal cannabis framework in Australia either, but there's about 200 hydro shops in Sydney alone.

Good luck!

TillthedayiDIE420 said:

Its just 4 plants under my LED produce around 600grams at under 600 watts draw. The HPS is fine and the plants are great, Just the cost of my HPS will be more then my LED very soon with no difference in yield really...

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I maintain that there's no way any LED light will keep production pace with a 600HPS. I strongly recommend against anyone buying LEDs for growing cannabis. A typical 600HPS will pound out 95,000 lumens and will always produce excellent results over a 12 sq ft area. I've seen 600HPS kits including ballast, lamp tube, reflector & socket for as low as $150-160. You just can't beat the performance for the price.

Thanks for the feedback Al. I have to say, it seems the calcium issue is realy mostly visible on one plant (of 9, oops sorry, 7, I trashed two boys yesterday).
I've been pHing the feeds to 5.8 now with a little lemon juice. Yeah will get proper stuff when I order. Found a sorta local place that stocks calmag, will only get it next weekend when people from that side of the cape comes over for my birthday.

I'm realy knackered and its only 8 in the morning, been working on the little grow room for 2 days now. Washing machine and tumble drier, out, shelf out, tap and drain moved, 80% of the vinyl tiles removed (they were in there when we moved in about '80. Today, I will paint it out in white, and add the new novilon flooring, and hopefully complete the electrics. Clones are still happy and alive since thursday (first time I don't kill a clone in 2 days). I just stuck them in a 1/3rds perlite, fine verm and coco mix. Humidity is kinda high (70) due to winter temps going into the mid 10's Celcius overnight where they are now, so no domes, I just propped some cake covers sligtly over them to protect them from the fan's draft.

I do some LED design work part time. To get the equivalent to 95000 lum, you will need about 50 $10 20W Cree LED's (not spectrum optimised), and of course the drivers for them, we are looking at say $1000, then you need heatsinking for the LED's, so add another shit tonne. I honsetly don't see how anyone could take panels with 3W LEDs seriously, The big LED's will at best put out about 1500 to 1700l each into a 120 degree field (only usefull quality)

Might work well in a cabinet configuration where they are build into the aluminium walls which would in turn have watercooling on the back and a small radiator on top. We are talking Michael Jackson rich before you look at doing shit like that. And you will NEVER recover the investment.

ANC said:

Thanks for the feedback Al. I have to say, it seems the calcium issue is realy mostly visible on one plant (of 9, oops sorry, 7, I trashed two boys yesterday).
I've been pHing the feeds to 5.8 now with a little lemon juice. Yeah will get proper stuff when I order. Found a sorta local place that stocks calmag, will only get it next weekend when people from that side of the cape comes over for my birthday.

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Glad you'll be getting proper phosphoric acid based pHDown. Lemon juice will have pathogens in it, will cause you grief. You probably don't need CalMag.

Also glad the room's coming along. Don't work so hard & long that you start doing crap work, tho.

I do some LED design work part time. To get the equivalent to 95000 lum, you will need about 50 $10 20W Cree LED's (not spectrum optimised), and of course the drivers for them, we are looking at say $1000, then you need heatsinking for the LED's, so add another shit tonne. I honsetly don't see how anyone could take panels with 3W LEDs seriously, The big LED's will at best put out about 1500 to 1700l each into a 120 degree field (only usefull quality)

Might work well in a cabinet configuration where they are build into the aluminium walls which would in turn have watercooling on the back and a small radiator on top. We are talking Michael Jackson rich before you look at doing shit like that. And you will NEVER recover the investment.

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Yep, all that. You KNOW the HPS will give solid yields. It's just too cheap & easy to whack up an HPS in a cooltube to yutz around with LEDs.

Well its the lemon juice from bottles type , but I hear ya. Went to objectively look at the plants, and they seem pretty healthy, except for the spotted runt.

Never, it will be an upgrade if anything, The catch is I've never done plumbing or novilon before, but youtube is handy. Still didn't prevent the high pressure water fountain in the room though. Man what fun!

I'm pretty meticulous though, believe in geting the right toolsand doing the job properly. Just fucking slow because I'm a little disabled, and recovering from a stupid heart attack.

First child due in exactly one month, shitload of work to be done, but friends ganged up invited themselves to a help fix the place up party next weekend. I swear at his rate I will sleep through the birth. I don't have a working surface in my body that doesn't hurt, burn or sting. The things we do for good medicine.

Al, I'm switching up my room from your cool tube set up, but two 600 watt hps. Each lamp is over two 2'x3' trays. I'm switching over to a sealed room with CO2 and A/C, and running 1000 watt hps instead of 600. Do you think I'd be fine with each 1k over two 3'x3' trays. I've always used the cool tubes, but we naturally have high temps and humidity, so its better, and cheaper to run sealed. What height do you recommend keeping the adjust a wing (without the cool tube) above the canopy? Also, by running CO2 in a perpetual op, should I just set the monitor for natural outside ambient CO2 levels?

sup al, so im not trying to argue with u, i respect your comments, and i hope you respect mine.
i just want to say that i disagree with alot you had to say about organics and chemicals ferts, as well as your comments about LED.

Organics should be the only way we should be growing ANYTHING IN THIS WORLD(according to mother nature), indoor or outdoor, tomatoes, basil, indica, corn, it should all be grown organic, not only the QUALITY IS MUCH BETTER, but it helps us sustain this world, your threads name is "it's a fuct world" well yes it is if we keep using all these unsustainable methods to grow cannabis(or any other plant) with synthetics. Ive seen hydroponic grows done with raw organics and not only the quanity and quality was there, but it was as clean then any other grow done with chemicals.

as for RO water and tap water, last time i checked (sustainablity 101) most tap water is not just high on ppm because of broken down cal and mag, its much more then that! the gov is putting some of the worst chemicals known to man like Fluoride and countless other chemicals that we dont know about, why on earth would u want to drink that let alone grow cannabis with it?
a big part of me wants to say hydroponic weed is just straight up wack, ive yet to smoke any hydro that can compare too organics, HOWEVER, i kno thats not the case, i kno somewhere out there, theirs some mad scientist growing some crazy ass shit that is prob better then organics, lol (IM SURE AT THE COST OF DESTROYING MOTHER NATURE)
now as for LEDS, i kno this is a HOT TOPIC, i just hope that the non believers, should at least acknowledge that their are people out there (like myself) growing some of the DANKEST ORGANIC LED HERB THAT TOPS ANY CHEMICAL HPS HERB ANYDAY, ESPECIALLY IN THIS FUCT UP WORLD!

foreverflyhi said:

sup al, so im not trying to argue with u, i respect your comments, and i hope you respect mine.
i just want to say that i disagree with alot you had to say about organics and chemicals ferts, as well as your comments ......

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Hey guy,
Al has been doing this a long time and has helped a lot of people over the years. There is no way in hell that you and your LED toys will ever out produce Als' system. And besides that they are way to pricey for no more than they do. You are out of line to come to this thread with this BS.

So why not open your own thread with step by step instructions like AL's?

ANC said:

Well its the lemon juice from bottles type , but I hear ya. Went to objectively look at the plants, and they seem pretty healthy, except for the spotted runt.

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If the lemon juice has been pasteurised, it'll cause less grief. Should use the phosphoric acid stuff anyway, provided you can get it.

Never, it will be an upgrade if anything, The catch is I've never done plumbing or novilon before, but youtube is handy. Still didn't prevent the high pressure water fountain in the room though. Man what fun!

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You have a decidedly masochistic idea of fun.

I'm pretty meticulous though, believe in geting the right toolsand doing the job properly. Just fucking slow because I'm a little disabled, and recovering from a stupid heart attack.

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Well, that sucks a lot. Hope you're OK.

First child due in exactly one month, shitload of work to be done, but friends ganged up invited themselves to a help fix the place up party next weekend. I swear at his rate I will sleep through the birth. I don't have a working surface in my body that doesn't hurt, burn or sting. The things we do for good medicine.

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Indeed. Glad you have good friends. Hope baby & mum are healthy & well.

Rick Ratlin said:

Al, I'm switching up my room from your cool tube set up, but two 600 watt hps. Each lamp is over two 2'x3' trays. I'm switching over to a sealed room with CO2 and A/C, and running 1000 watt hps instead of 600. Do you think I'd be fine with each 1k over two 3'x3' trays. I've always used the cool tubes, but we naturally have high temps and humidity, so its better, and cheaper to run sealed. What height do you recommend keeping the adjust a wing (without the cool tube) above the canopy? Also, by running CO2 in a perpetual op, should I just set the monitor for natural outside ambient CO2 levels?

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1000HPS will work fine over 2x 3'x3'. That's pretty much what I have here; my trays are 900x900mm. Cooltubes are pretty good at trapping longwave IR, so lamp-to-plant spacing can be pretty short, around 200mm with 1000s in cooltubes. Mind, with the lamp that low, you'll tend to get shadowing on the plants in the far ends of the trays. About 300-350mm above nearest plant tops is about right.

Sealed is fine but expensive. If the ambient air you have to draw in is going to be above 26C, you pretty much have no choice but to run sealed with aircon & CO2, though. You'll probably find a way of recouping the expense.

If you're going to run CO2, definitely run it above normal atmospheric CO2 concentration, which if I recall correctly is about 350ppm. If you bump it up to 1000-1500ppm & increase ambient temps to about 28-29C, you should see about a 25% increase in yield.

foreverflyhi said:

sup al, so im not trying to argue with u, i respect your comments, and i hope you respect mine.
i just want to say that i disagree with alot you had to say about organics and chemicals ferts, as well as your comments about LED.

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That's OK, you're entitled to be wrong if you like.

Gyroscope said:

Hey guy,
Al has been doing this a long time and has helped a lot of people over the years. There is no way in hell that you and your LED toys will ever out produce Als' system. And besides that they are way to pricey for no more than they do. You are out of line to come to this thread with this BS.

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Sometimes the best rebuttal to goobers is to simply let them let it all hang out. FFhi has certainly done that.

ANC said:

So why not open your own thread with step by step instructions like AL's?

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Stoney McDoper already has such an advice column... https://www.rollitup.org/newbie-central/10004-how-not-grow-dope.html

foreverflyhi said:

sup al, so im not trying to argue with u

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Then maybe you SHOULDN'T POAST ALL IN CAPS.
Or imply people that don't totally agree with you are idiots

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Anyway, hey Al this thread is just a treasure chest of great info. Thanks for keeping it updated, some of us new growers are keen to learn, and it's experienced vets like yourself passing info on that makes sure growing techniques don't go backwards
I've only read to page 8 or so and my eyes have started to bleed, so sorry if this has been asked already, but how much cal-mag should I be adding to my rainwater? I'm using the same nutes (canna vega) as you, with no additives bar superthrive.

Also any chance you would be able to point me towards a hydro store in vic that might stock fytocell?

And lastly, have you got any experience with bushmaster? I know you don't really veg your plants, but I've already gone and got a dedicated veg box, so I'm wondering what you thought about vegging for a while, pruning lower third SOG style, and then using the bushmaster to inhibit stretch when they're moved to 12/12. Figured this might turn out the same style of plants you get, but bigger due to the extra few weeks of growth.

I ask because I already have the bushmaster

Taurich said:

Then maybe you SHOULDN'T POAST ALL IN CAPS.
Or imply people that don't totally agree with you are idiots

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I liked it when he ran off into fluoride fucknuttery. Neighbours 3 doors down could hear me laughing. Did my 'tree-huggin' hippie crap' Cartman imitation (which is really quite good, you know).

Anyway, hey Al this thread is just a treasure chest of great info. Thanks for keeping it updated, some of us new growers are keen to learn, and it's experienced vets like yourself passing info on that makes sure growing techniques don't go backwards

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Thanks.

I've only read to page 8 or so and my eyes have started to bleed, so sorry if this has been asked already, but how much cal-mag should I be adding to my rainwater? I'm using the same nutes (canna vega) as you, with no additives bar superthrive.

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Hasn't been asked. Use enough CalMag to bring the TDS to about 100-150ppm.

Also any chance you would be able to point me towards a hydro store in vic that might stock fytocell?

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Unfortunately not. You may have to ring around a bit. Hold that thought, though. If Sure-To-Grow 1" cubes turn out to be economical to use, I may be revising my general advice on use of Fytocell. I have 3 plants running in STG at the moment and they are outperforming all the others in the tray which are in plain Fytocell. AND STG is much tidier to use- no little bits all over the place like Fytocell.

And lastly, have you got any experience with bushmaster?

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Nope.

I know you don't really veg your plants, but I've already gone and got a dedicated veg box, so I'm wondering what you thought about vegging for a while, pruning lower third SOG style, and then using the bushmaster to inhibit stretch when they're moved to 12/12. Figured this might turn out the same style of plants you get, but bigger due to the extra few weeks of growth.

I ask because I already have the bushmaster

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I can tell you right now that vegging before flowering will give you tall plants, where the lower buds yield poorly due to distance from the lamp. Use the veg box for mothers.

Rotsaruck.

Been nosing around on Bushmaster; apparently it does work for stopping vertical growth, but it's a bit pricey. If you just don't veg before flowering, you can omit it and speed up the process as there is no time in the growth cycle spent on vegging.

...I went and checked on foreverflyhi's journal...look what I found.

foreverflyhi said:

fuck!!!! i just flushed all my plants because im suspecting problems in the soil, and after reading the ph, all of them are fucked~!!!!! sb 1, 2 and 3 are low in ph, aboyut 6.3 and sb4 5 and nl bb are about 7.2 wtf!!!!!! im soo stressed out, im thinking of cutting production and starting over.

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...dude, this proves you need to stop thinking your experiments are better than lifelong growers and knocking their techniques....if you knew organics you'd know that pH doesn't mean dick, when in organics, the microbes takes care of everything for you...why in the hell would you flush soil unless your putting synthetic fertz into it ???...your not going to wash the bat shit out of it, or whatever your using....
...and you should keep your LED's for your flashlights.

Great info, many thanks Al! What are your thoughts on CO2 in perpetual ops? Some say too high CO2 levels late in flowering lower terpene production. I don't have pm issues, but I still like to run the sulfur burner just like you, and I swear (without any scientific backing) that it helps the final taste, and as a bonus kills the bad stuff in the room. Anybody out there run CO2 in a perpetual op like Al's? Also Al, since I'll be taking off my cool tubes this summer, what height do you recommend hanging the adjust a wing over the canopy without a cool tube? It's a 600 Watt now, but will be a 1000 watt come summer time. 1k covers two 3x3 trays. Thanks Al!

hey Al i read your 2weeks thread few months ago and remember someone asked what im going to ask , just forgot your explanation..

i plan on starting a 3light rotation, each 600 over 3x3table, starting from regular seed. question is should i top ~day 15 early to begin multiple tops as early as possible or wait till ~day30 and use that 'top' as the clone to determine sex or throw the mom in into flower and grow out the clones as moms, to determine sex AND get a decent yield ?

i plan on starting 20seeds, will i be overwhelmed with that amount? my reasoning is that not all 20 are going to crack, and not all of the remaining are going to be female. leaving me with about 10 hopefuls to select from. selecting, shouldnt i flower these entirely to make my pick? cloning just to determine sex doesnt tell me what colors, smells, bud shapes, or any idea of yield...

also iv been growing in coco for 2yrs now. love it. will i be fine in a flood and drain setup using 8in pots filled w coco? will i have to hand water the top at all?

thanx!

I would definitely read the whole thread again. Quite a bit of info and it sounds like you're not sure what you're doing.

matatan said:

hey Al i read your 2weeks thread few months ago and remember someone asked what im going to ask , just forgot your explanation..

i plan on starting a 3light rotation, each 600 over 3x3table, starting from regular seed. question is should i top ~day 15 early to begin multiple tops as early as possible or wait till ~day30 and use that 'top' as the clone to determine sex or throw the mom in into flower and grow out the clones as moms, to determine sex AND get a decent yield ?

i plan on starting 20seeds, will i be overwhelmed with that amount? my reasoning is that not all 20 are going to crack, and not all of the remaining are going to be female. leaving me with about 10 hopefuls to select from. selecting, shouldnt i flower these entirely to make my pick? cloning just to determine sex doesnt tell me what colors, smells, bud shapes, or any idea of yield...

also iv been growing in coco for 2yrs now. love it. will i be fine in a flood and drain setup using 8in pots filled w coco? will i have to hand water the top at all?

thanx!

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Rick Ratlin said:

Great info, many thanks Al! What are your thoughts on CO2 in perpetual ops? Some say too high CO2 levels late in flowering lower terpene production.

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Haven't heard anything about that myself.

I don't have pm issues, but I still like to run the sulfur burner just like you, and I swear (without any scientific backing) that it helps the final taste, and as a bonus kills the bad stuff in the room.

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There's an equally good chance that you don't have any powdery mildew because you're running a sulfur 'burner.' Sulfur 'burners' put so very little sulfur into the airmass that I would not expect it to alter taste at all. I put about 60g of sulfur into my 'burner' about 3-4 years ago and have not had to add any. However, the tiny amounts of sulfur vapour that float around the flowering area are clearly sufficient to halt powdery mildew entirely.

Also Al, since I'll be taking off my cool tubes this summer, what height do you recommend hanging the adjust a wing over the canopy without a cool tube? It's a 600 Watt now, but will be a 1000 watt come summer time. 1k covers two 3x3 trays. Thanks Al!

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I would not disconnect cooltubes for any reason, especially not in summer.

Plant top clearance for a 1000HPS without a cooltube should be about 450-500mm.

matatan said:

hey Al i read your 2weeks thread few months ago and remember someone asked what im going to ask , just forgot your explanation..

i plan on starting a 3light rotation, each 600 over 3x3table, starting from regular seed. question is should i top ~day 15 early to begin multiple tops as early as possible or wait till ~day30 and use that 'top' as the clone to determine sex or throw the mom in into flower and grow out the clones as moms, to determine sex AND get a decent yield ?

i plan on starting 20seeds, will i be overwhelmed with that amount? my reasoning is that not all 20 are going to crack, and not all of the remaining are going to be female. leaving me with about 10 hopefuls to select from. selecting, shouldnt i flower these entirely to make my pick? cloning just to determine sex doesnt tell me what colors, smells, bud shapes, or any idea of yield...

also iv been growing in coco for 2yrs now. love it. will i be fine in a flood and drain setup using 8in pots filled w coco? will i have to hand water the top at all?

thanx!

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You cannot SoG from seed. Waste of time & money on power bills. Sex the plants first, grow out some mums from the females then take cuttings from the mums to provide plants to flower.

I'm not a fan of any organically-based media. Coco coir has a tendency to break down & fragment when exposed to H2O2. Loose bits may plug the tray drain & may lodge in pumps. Don't say you haven't been warned.

bigwood111 said:

I would definitely read the whole thread again. Quite a bit of info and it sounds like you're not sure what you're doing.

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Yep.

Pretty interested in seeing what those STG cubes do, I never paid any mind to them before

Al, which sure to grow cubes are you using? I checked out their website. Lots of different products. Are you using the stg hail?

pdillo said:

Pretty interested in seeing what those STG cubes do, I never paid any mind to them before

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Working pretty well so far. The three STG trial plants are all doing better than the others in Fytocell. However, I tend to have problems with rosetting (stunting, failure of stems to elongate) this time of year as we head into winter. I suspect my lights-off temps are too low, touching 16C at the moment. Need to isolate the cause, but haven't yet.

Rick Ratlin said:

Al, which sure to grow cubes are you using? I checked out their website. Lots of different products. Are you using the stg hail?

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Yes, 'Hail' 1" cubes.