echlectica
Well-Known Member
You should be able to see a phenotype patern emrge from around 30 plants but to really get a clear picture of the genome at least a hundred individuals.
Ken's GDP! You have to be joking!
- Thread starter Nightmarecreature
- Start date
TrippyDab420
Member
The girl scout clones I got from patient to patent were fake as fuck! I bought 30 gsc clones from patient to patient about 6 months ago that turned out to be fake & bunk as fuck! I will never buy clones from patient to patient again!
I just got done with a batch of Dark Heart nursery cherie pie clones from elemental that turned out to be some super fire "top shelf"
rdo420
Well-Known Member
a lot of nanners, but looks like fire. It probably just threw em out at the end since you let it go the proper time? Wish I could order from the tude, I'd like to try these.my gdp.
current project.gdp cross.
Kens GDP gear is straight fire, GDP is a serious body high with copious amounts of resin, classic gdp taste lots of color especially in colder temps but still turns purple without, just not as much obviously, his kens kush is fire and gave me quality phenos that were sour leaning, og leaning and GDP leaning, and also mixes of each, his Tahoe og clone is legit my friend is an actor and got some clones through a friends friend that knows ken
HazeHeaven
Active Member
Have you tried the Candyland? I have that one waiting on deck...
Ken GDP seeds original GDP is better then the clone only GDP to me, it's a little sweeter more fruity pebbles tasting with a slight skunk undertone, seriously potent, great appeal, great for pain killing actually it numbs your whole body and I've never had GDP with mold from anyone
Jogro
Well-Known Member
If you're starting with a really high quality inbred line, there will be few if any different phenos, and pretty much EVERY female from a pack should be excellent.
To answer the second part, I think the usual rule of thumb is one plant per square foot, but you could easily get 5x5 or 25 plants into that space. You can do more than that, but probably NOT unless you're starting with suitable clones from the SAME plant.
If you're starting with 50 regular ceeds, half will be male, and there are your 25 females to select from.
But this is still a bit problematic. Are you really going to maintain 25 mother plants until you figure out which one is best? I think that will take more space than the actual flower! You might as well run your SOG 12-12 from ceed, cull out any males, then later just re-veg your "keeper" plant(s) for further use.
In terms of the actual sea of green here, if your "line" (we can't really call it a "strain") is throwing off a wild variety of phenos that you're trying to select from, the plants will all be of different heights, exhibit different degrees of "stretch" and have different degrees of branching, potentially making it impossible to get a uniform canopy. That means some potential for adjacent plants to shade/"fight" each other. They also probably won't start flowering at the same time, again complicating management of this sort of "sea". That's why SOG is typically done with clones from the same plant.
I think you are absolutely correct about this, but I also think the sort of exercise you describe is most useful in "probing" the genetic background of a given line for future breeding efforts. With 100 plants all the recessive genes should emerge, and you should know what traits are present for future selection.
But assuming good genetics to start with and at least SOME sort of selective breeding on the part of the seller (which I guess, we can't really "assume"), you simply shouldn't have to grow out 100 (or even 50) individual females to find a "keeper" for further growing.
Think about it. . .if 99% of plants grown from a line are unsuitable for further use, what kind of piece of crap "strain" is that? Even stipulating that the 1 in 100 plant is fire, do you really want to spend your time and money finding it?
I think its perfectly reasonable to select from 100 plants if you're (say) doing an F2 breeding selection, but I'll be damned if I'm going to pay some other "breeder" $500-1000 for ten packs of ceeds, just for the privilege of doing the selection they should have done before putting out the ceeds into the marketplace!
To my mind, if you aren't dealing with a quality inbred line where EVERY female is a "keeper", then you should be seeing at LEAST one suitable female plant in every pack or two. Once you start having to comb through 30-40 plants to find one you like, I think YOU'RE the breeder.
Vincent VonBlown
New Member
Clone only strain = Unstable hybrid
Unstable hybrids, make unstable seed (regular or feminized)
Unstable hybrids, make unstable seed (regular or feminized)
Vincent VonBlown
New Member
It takes about 12 generations (F12) to make a strain actually breed true.
Little if no one, has done, or wants to do the work.
There for, you have the situation you have...
Little if no one, has done, or wants to do the work.
There for, you have the situation you have...
Jogro
Well-Known Member
Well, I don't think you need to go that far.
Lots of lines ARE what they purport to be. For example, while there were times when ceeds for Herijuana weren't commercially available, and the line was borderline "clone only", right now there are probably three or four sellers on the market now with Herijuana ceeds. These aren't S1s, they're legitimately bred ceeds from male and female inbred parents. And this is true of any number of other inbred lines that are well known by name.
The problem is specifically with popular "clone only" lines (eg Girl Scout Cookies, Blue Dream, EC Sour Diesel). In cases like that, any version from ceed is likely to be different from the clone only line.
How different? It depends on the line, and possibly luck of the draw.
Does it matter? Depends what you are after.
With something like that, you should do your homework before buying it. Find out what the original genetics are, how they were sourced, and how the ceeds in the pack trace back to them.
Just because something is an S1, doesn't necessarily mean its "crap"; it depends on the exact line and what your expectations are. Most of these will put out some good phenos, though they won't necessarily be identical to the parents, and you may have to go through a number of plants to find the good ones.
For example, I had good results growing out Sickmeds S1 version of Green Crack from ceed, but I also came into it with fairly limited expectations. I knew this wasn't going to be the same as the "clone only" line and wasn't expecting that. Meanwhile, the breeder outright told me I should expect to see different phenos, but added that in his experience virtually all of them have similar fast flowering times and flavor as the original clone only line. So the breeder wasn't trying to conceal anything here and I think set the bar appropriately for what I could expect.
I ended up exactly with what was described, and I was satisfied with the result (which, if you're curious about, you can see in my grow report, linked below). Since then I've heard of some growers getting individual phenos basically indistinguishable from the original "clone only" line, some worse, and at least one describing a pheno he said was BETTER than the original. My takeaway from having grown this is that at the asking price (which is $80 for a 10-pack of Fem ceeds) this is a reasonable consideration for someone who wants to try the original but can't source the clone.
This comes down to whether or not the seller has integrity.
This is why, by the way, I don't do business with BS artists. Even if their genetics are great (which sometimes they are. . .pollen chuck enough elite clone only strains, and eventually you will end up with something good), I don't like to reinforce poor ethical business practice with my dollars. And I don't need to. . .there are plenty of excellent lines out there by breeders with integrity, including young "up and coming" breeders who can use the support, and I'd rather direct my money at them to help keep them in the marketplace at the expense of the BS artists.
Jogro
Well-Known Member
I agree, but just want to raise one rare exception.
Clone only strains are USUALLY unstable hybrids (and most or all of the ones of interest in this thread are), but not in every single case.
For example, once in a while there is a good inbred line that for whatever reason isn't commercially available in ceed form (usually because the original breeder goes defunct). So cuts of it may get passed around, as a "clone only" even though legitimately stable seeded versions could (or even do) exist.
For a long time Williams Wonder was like this. Yes, some people had/have it as a seeded heirloom version, but they're not selling ceeds to the public. Until pretty recently, if you wanted it, you'd have to get it in clone form. Herijuana is another inbred line with on-and-off market availability that got passed around as a "clone only" in certain circles, when unavailable.
Well, with proper selection after about F8 you can have minimal pheno variation in relevant traits to the point where a plant is functionally an IBL. Personally, I wouldn't fault anyone for calling a line an "IBL" if they've done the legwork and "only" taken it out 8-9 generations! For most lines, that's a three year project, though maybe it can be done in two years with fast indicas or autoflowers.
But even out to say only 6 generations, a breeder should still have most of the traits of interest locked down, and phenotypic variation should be relatively low.
FWIW, "Da Bean Co" offers what it purports to be an F19(!) of Herijuana. I'm sure there are other breeders whose individual lines have been worked out that many generations, though they probably just call them IBLs rather than giving a number.
Jogro
Well-Known Member
If you're responding to VVB's remark about needing to go out to F12 before a line is legitimately true breeding, he's talking about sexual crosses.
So no, you're not maintaining cuttings there.
-Cross two parents into an F1 generation of offspring.
-Cross F1 two offspring into an F2 generation and do your selection for plants just with your traits of interest.
-Then cross two of those into an F3. . .repeat selection. . .
-When you get to F12 (or even a bit before) now every single plant will be phenotypically identical, or should be, assuming you've done appropriate selections.
In terms of parent/clone degradation over time, this is a bit of a complex discussion, but to answer it quickly
Empirically, there are individuals who have maintained individual mother plants for 10 and even 20 years, taking cuttings and have not seen any issues. So its at least possible to maintain individual plants for VERY long periods of time and not have problems.
That said, if you take clones of clones of clones of clones (etc), eventually you may run into issues of poor rooting, poor vigor, and other problems potentially attributable to accumulated mutation/genetic drift. It won't necessarily happen, but its been reported.
With popular "clone only" lines, typically these are passed around and held by a number of individuals, with the group holding the strain changing over time. If any one(s) of these clones go down over time for whatever reason, usually there are enough copies floating around to keep the line viable.
Albert Walker is one "clone only" line that's been passed around in cutting form for years and years, going back to the 1980s. Never seen this one myself (its more of a Pacific Northwest thing), but supposedly its very difficult to clone and slow growing, perhaps because of these very issues of clone degradation over time.
Kens GDP genetics original GDP is fire and I found 2 phenos in 1 pack that were better than kens GDP cut, all had that grapes skunky goodness that is GDP, some stronger than others most phenos turned purple some more than others but its well worth getting a couple packs I guarrantee you will find many phenos that can stay in anyone's garden. Great body high too, perfect for pain killing, define of the top pain killing strains I've had, and can't beat the taste!