Lacking Potency!

Justin00 said:

So i finished curing my 2oz from 3 plants from my first ever grow, they were grown in soil with CFLs and looked very healthy right up untill harvest. i harvested one at 8 weeks, one and 8.5 and one at 9 weeks after 12/12. they were bag seed but are much less potent then the weed they came from.

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There could be numerous causes. Inadequate and or improper lighting might have been, at least in part, the cause. What was the color of your trichomes when you harvested? You might have harvested early and ended up with mostly only precursor cannabinoid elements. It is possible that your level of humidity during flower was too high? Low humidity increases resin production and high humidity decreases resin production and causes what few trichomes that to grow to be longer/taller and thinner and a result of that is when handling your plants and or harvested crop many trichome heads will break off.

There could be any number of reasons for your lack of expected success.

My suggestions would be:

Stop fooling around with CFLs. Purchase HID lighting, 400-watts minimum, and make sure it has a digital ballast that will burn both metal halide bulbs and high pressure sodium bulbs. Use a quality 6500K metal halide bulb during the vegetative stage of growth and use a quality high pressure sodium bulb, preferably one with some additional blue spectrum, during the flowering stage. Keep your humidity high during the vegetative stage of growth and keep your humidity low during flowering. If you can, add UVB lighting during flower. One or two Mega-Ray self ballasted 100-watt lights will be enough but higher wattage would be even better. If you do not have a scope that is powerful enough to clearly make out the color of your trichomes, purchase one and harvest when the trichome color tells you that your plants are ripe. Make sure you perform a proper slow drying process under the best of conditions and then follow it with a long slow cure, again done properly under the best of conditions.

Those things of course are in addition to things like quality fertilizers and if growing in soil, quality soil, and keeping up on your pH level to make sure it remains within the proper range, keeping temperatures within a proper range .. and all the rest .... including purchasing quality professional genetics to grow.

Do those things and you will see a very considerable increase in the quality of your crops.

some plants/phenos are just duds

Brick Top said:

You may feel sure about that, but you are incorrect. The decarboxylization process will not only not fully occur during the drying process, but will take, depending on the strain, anywhere from two weeks to a rather long time to be fully completed. It is not a speedy process.

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dried in what ways, and do you not think there a ways to dry fast properly. If dried and cured by sitting around, are you sure that's the only process that works for it?

Brick Top said:

Do you believe that dryness equates to potency? If so explain all the crummy very dry Mexican brickweed that popped up in the late 70's and early 80's? That stuff was drier than a 100-year old woman's cunt and you could smoke an ounce of it and hardly get high.

Dude, in your two grow threads, and in messages you posted in other threads, you have more than proven to anyone and everyone here other that total newbies that you really do not know what you are talking about. So why do you attempt to give advice when you are the one who should be asking for advice?

Your; "sexy" pinkish-red bar of soap on top of your soil to perk up your droopy plants and your; "water food" level of growing expertise will not be of help to anyone here, and if anything it will only hold their learning process back and possibly cause them problems with their crops.

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No, I'm saying that once it's fully dried with a fast-dry method that it would have the same potency.

tafbang said:

dried in what ways, and do you not think there a ways to dry fast properly. If dried and cured by sitting around, are you sure that's the only process that works for it?

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I know there is no way to properly dry fast. If you would read and learn from people who know you might actually learn something and not keep saying things that are obtuse.

tafbang said:

No, I'm saying that once it's fully dried with a fast-dry method that it would have the same potency.

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I understand what you are saying, but like virtually EVERYTHING that you say, you are wrong.

It is IMPOSSIBLE to speed up the transformation of THCA into THC. You need a long slow drying process, as long and as slow as it can be without risking mold giving time for various elements to begin to break down and for others to transform, to change their chemical makeup. Then you need a long slow curing process to give time for the further breakdown of some chemical elements and the transformation of others. Also when you quick dry your bud will always have that cut hay, fresh mowed lawn odor and taste to it.

In your two grow threads, both about the very same grow, you clearly stated it is your very first grow. You started with 8 plants in a chandelier and then moved them to a picnic basket that was on top of a stack of books that was on top of a stool that was on top of a table so you could keep your Roadside Red plants near your only source of light, a few weak CFLs in your chandelier. Six plants vanished, one broke and you had to take it early, meaning you likely at best had mainly precursor elements and not fully developed cannabinoids, and your other plant looks like a pool cue with a Charlie Brown Christmas tree on top of it.

You have almost virtually no experience whatsoever, and what tiny bit of experience you do have, you have done every single thing wrong. So why in the wide, wide world of sports are you attempting to advise others? You have never grown a single successful crop and then properly dried it, giving it a long slow dry, and then properly cured it, giving it a long slow cure. So what do you actually know about drying and curing? Nothing!

Here is one for you that I guarantee you do not know. The levels of THC that strains are advertised as having are not the actual percentages of THC that is found when tested. The system is called calculated active cannabinoids and it takes all THC and all THCA that is found and a calculation is made as to what the level of THC 'would be' IF all of the non-psychoactive THCA would break down and become actual THC.

When a relative ratio of 'active' cannabinoids test is performed, the key word there is "active," as in they are already in their final form, a high percentage THC strain will show single digits of THC. That is all the actual THC there is at harvest and that is all that there would be after a quick dry. Super Lemon Haze was tested by an independent lab and the 'calculated active' cannabinoids tests, what shows what could be achieved if all THCA does become THC, the THC level was 23.98%/ The relative ratio 'active cannabinoids' test found a THC level of 9.64%.

No quick drying process will change that 9.64% into 23.98% ..... NONE.

Dude, you really need to stop attempting to advise people based on what you imagine to be the case and wait until you actually learn how things work and only then speak out.

Until then you should just say things like you have said about how putting a bar of pinkish-red soap between your plants perked them up when they were droopy and that it did it because the odor excites the plants just like odors excite animals. At least that stuff is so inane that no one will attempt to replicate what you have done and nothing you say will result in someone losing out, having problems or ending up with hay-like pot that is less potent than it otherwise could be.

There is no hay or grass taste to my quickdries. on the 1st plant it tastes like crap, but on this newer one the flavor is sweet. using the same process. and I read a lot of those forums on quick drying and it being bad, but after experimenting myself I've noticed the high I'm getting now is just as intense as the best of them. And I quit reading after your 2nd paragraph. As there is no scientific data of your claims and that these things do what you say.

I bet you that things can be sped up with no harm

tafbang said:

There is no hay or grass taste to my quickdries. on the 1st plant it tastes like crap, but on this newer one the flavor is sweet. using the same process. and I read a lot of those forums on quick drying and it being bad, but after experimenting myself I've noticed the high I'm getting now is just as intense as the best of them. And I quit reading after your 2nd paragraph. As there is no scientific data of your claims and that these things do what you say.

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What experience can you actually be relying on that could be more valid that what has long been known about the chemical process involved in a long slow dry followed by a long slow cure? You are still on your very first grow, of your 8 initial plants 6 of them vanished, either died or were males or a combination of both, one broke so you took it early so you likely had mainly precursor elements rather than actual cannabinoids and your other plant is still growing but from the one picture you posted of it, it doesn't look like it even has popcorn buds on it.

So where does all your experience come from?

As there is no scientific data of your claims and that these things do what you say.

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Do you honestly believe that if you just make a baseless claim like that, that it will somehow become true?

I bet you that things can be sped up with no harm

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That is a bet that you would lose 100% of the times you make it. Just ask anyone with more experience growing pot than you .. which means just ask anyone.

soft rebuttals. There was also some bud shots of the 1st harvest. and on the big plant pic, told you it was a bad picture. but it's a good plant

Does curing affect potency?

The very short answer is YES. It does affect potency in a very positive manner. Curing cannabis after harvesting for few days to several months will improve the potency, as well as the taste and texture of the buds.

Curing takes place after cannabis has been harvested, manicured and partially dried. Most cannabis will retain a significant quantity of moisture within its stems and inner buds even when the outside feels dry. This is especially true for very dense buds, more care must be taken in drying loose airy buds because sometimes they can dry too fast.

Should a sample of bud become over-dried before proper curing is complete, many different techniques may be used to slightly re-hydrate the bud and continue curing as normal. Fresh buds, orange or lemon peels, lettuce, apple or many other fresh fruits and vegetables can be added to a sealed jar of pot to allow more moisture to diffuse into it. Plain water either sprayed directly on or applied via towel to the buds is also a good way to re-moisten them.

Be very careful when re-moisturizing buds though, because sometimes the re-moisturizing material can carry pathogenic fungi and bacteria, Which if not monitored carefully, can destroy your crop. Venting, checking, turning, and even re-moistening of buds is necessary so that the proper moisture content to promote curing is present, slow even drying is the optimum process for curing cannabis.

The preferred container for curing and storage of cannabis buds is an all glass jar, with a large opening for easy access. Wide-mouth canning jars with glass bodies and tops with a rubber seal are an ideal choice. Less preferred are small-mouth canning jars with metal or plastic lids. Generally try to avoid all plastics in direct or close contact with your cannabis. Generally these materials are slightly porous and the phenolic acids and terpenoids can react with plastics, but not with glass.

Initially drying can be preformed free hanging or enclosed in cardboard boxes or paper bags, both of which will act as a desiccant.

There are several process and effects which take place during curing that can rationally and scientifically explain the increase in potency and improvement of the smoke in cured material:

Moisture Content

Moisture is essential for the curing process, it is both your friend and enemy. If too much moisture is left in the buds, with out the regular mixing, venting and turning of buds involved with curing, molds and bacteria can quickly form and ruin the taste and potency of your stash. On the other hand, without the necessary moisture metabolic processes essential to curing do not take place.

Fresh cannabis plants are around 80% water (all %’s by weight); curing generally begins after the cannabis has lost half of it’s initial mass, and contains approximately 33% of it’s initial water.

Once curing is complete and the pot is “dry”, it should still contain 10-15% moisture, approximately 2-4% of its’ initial water. This is an ideal because most bacteria and molds can not grow below 15% water content, and below 10% cannabis buds tend to powder.

Cannabinoid Conversion

Naturally, as the metabolic processes continue during curing, the conversion of cannabergerol to tetrahydrocannabinol will continue and the potency of the pot will increase. This is because cannabergerol (CBG) is the non-psychoactive precursor for tetrahydrocannabinol (THC). Of course, the exact change in THC content will necessarily be dependant upon the concentration of CBG in the fresh material at harvest. Of course any remaining precursors necessary to form additional cannabidiol (CBD) and other cannabinoids will also be consumed and converted.

Be aware though if curing is excessively prolonged (most connoisseurs would agree after 6 months no more benefit could be had from curing), the conversion of THC to non-psychoactive cannabinol (CBN) will occur. The exact rate of decomposition can vary widely depending on handling and storage conditions, but can be less than 10% to greater than 40% decomposition per year.

Storage tips:

Potency during curing and storage can be maintained by observing some basic precautions:

# The buds need to be kept in the dark, protected from light, which will quickly decompose the THC.

# Moderated temperatures should be observed during curing, 50-75F being ideal.

# Excessively hot temperatures will promote oxidation and the growth of mold and bacteria, and very cold temperatures can prolong curing and drying for up to several months.

During storage, buds should be stored as cold as possible, if temperatures of 0C or less are to be used, make sure the bud is dried to a very low moisture content before storage (to insure that cell walls are not burst by the freezing water).
Also, if prolonged storage is planned evacuating the oxygen and replacing it with carbon dioxide, nitrogen, argon, nitrous oxide, or any other inert gas will help slow oxidation, as well as the addition of antioxidants such as ascorbic acid packets or vitamin C tablets.

The most stable way to store cannabis is as whole unbroken buds or unpressed trichomes. Excessive rough handling or pressing can easily damage the protective cell walls and plant waxes that help protect cannabinoids from oxidation.

Continued Metabolism

Also as these metabolic process take place, the plant needs energy which leads it to consume the sugars, starches, nitrates, and minerals. Many of these compounds are metabolized and released as water and carbon dioxide, therefore removing what is essentially inert material from the pot increasing the concentration of cannabinoids therefore making it more potent.

Much of these positive metabolic processes can be most effectively begun with thourough flushing and stripping of the plant before harvest. This will help reduce the amount of time necessary for a good cure.

Curing will not only improve potency, but the color and look of most cannabis buds because as the chlorophyll is broken down purple, gold, and white coloration can emerge and the trichomes will appear more pronounced.

Decarboxylization will take place during curing as well. This happens when the carboxyl group (COOH) located at C-2, C-4, or the end of the hydrocarbon chain at C-3 is destroyed leaving a hydrogen attached and liberating CO2.

Decarboxylization is necessary to convert cannabinoids to usable psychoactive forms; the plants (and your body) carboxylize cannabinoids to make them more soluble in water (for metabolic reactions and excretion).

Okay, that doesn't say anything about there not being a possible way to speed things up properly with no harm.

I think I just figured out where we bump heads... you are seemingly light years behind speaking of all this old information of the basics of curing. I'm already on the next step wondering about ways to further the science behind it. It doesn't seem bizarre for there to be a way to do so...

brick top have to say everything youve said is right,,as 20yr growing outside an storeing it underground,once its to the max it goes back to dirt an no way to bring it back,

tafbang said:

Okay, that doesn't say anything about there not being a possible way to speed things up properly with no harm.

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Taffy ... just because you lack knowledge and experience does not mean that what has been known for a very long time, and that has been researched and found to be true, is not true and is bendable to your fantasies.

First off, regardless of your claims to the contrary, any quick drying method will not allow the time or create the proper conditions for chlorophyll, carbohydrates, proteins and other complex elements to break down into simpler less complex elements. Once the process has stopped due to drying too quickly it has stopped for good, there is no restarting it, and that means harsher less flavorful bud that does not burn as well.

The process of THCA transforming into THC is a long slow process, sometimes never fully achieved even with an extremely long cure. Heat, as in the form of when smoked will cause some decarboxylization, the process of THCA becoming THC, but not 100% in the case of uncured cannabis, so 100% total potency of freshly dried uncured cannabis that is smoked is virtually impossible.

During the curing process terpenoids also change and that not only brings out more aroma and increased flavor but some terpenoids also work in conjunction with CBD to give more of a body stone, so that would be something important to the couch-lock overs of the world.

Long slow curing also creates a much better much more complete burning of the cannabis. Some may have noticed when smoking uncured pot that they can end up with an almost non-burnable slightly resinous black substance that is not ash-like and it not tar in the bottom of their bowl, but when smoking fully cured cannabis they end up with a light actual ash. Others may have noticed that uncured pot sometimes just won't stay lit in a joint, though they often times mistake it for a case of not being fully dry. It is that slightly resinous black substance that won't burn unless you practically hold a blowtorch to it being created and stopping the burning process from working it's way down a joint.

Curing proceeds while the leaf is still alive, for until it dries, many of the leaf's life processes continue. Since the leaf's ability to produce sugars is thwarted, it breaks down stored starch to simple sugars, which are used for food. This gives the grass a sweet or earthy aroma and taste. At the same time, many of the complex proteins and pigments, such as chlorophyll, are broken down in enzymatic processes. This changes the colour of the leaf from green to various shades of yellow, brown, tan, or red, depending primarily on the variety, but also on growing environment and cure technique. The destruction of chlorophyll eliminates the hay or fresh cut lawn taste that is commonly associated with green homegrown.

The fast dry-method produces a harsher smoke than slow drying, but it is often the most convenient method to use. Normally the plants are suspended in the same way as for slow drying, but the temperature in the drying area is increased to between 90 and 115 degrees, often by means of electric or gas heater, but there are other methods like food dehydrators or hanging plants to dry over radiators or stream pipes or heat duct vents or on trays or screens over light fixtures etc. Marijuana that is fast-dried retains its original green color and hay or fresh mowed lawn taste.

What you fail to understand Taffy is that curing is only the second, or final, step in the actual drying process. The initial long slow drying process removes most moisture and allows the much needed chemical breakdown and transformation processes to begin. The crop still retains a small degree of moisture when jarred for curing and that moisture is drawn out at a very slow rate, but that small amount of remaining moisture slowly being drawn out is critical to the continuation of the chemical breakdown and transformation of various elements and cannabinoids. A quick/fast dry, regardless of how it is performed, halts the chemical breakdown and the transformation of various elements and cannabinoids.

Here is part of an article from Michigan Medical Marijuana. I only posted part of it because it goes into detail about various methods of curing and since the topic is lack of potency and does curing matter or help it was superfluous information.

Drying and curing cannabis properly will yield the most THC-potent smoke. When dried and cured improperly, potency can diminish substantially. The level of THC in a plant is determined by its genetics. Proper drying and curing will keep the THC level as high as genetically possible. It does not increase potency.

A little background on what happens inside and outside the harvested drying plant will help you understand why proper drying and curing are so important to good quality dope. Drying evaporates most of the 70-75 percent water content in fresh marijuana. Drying also converts THC from its non-psychoactive crude acidic form to its psychoactive pH-neutral form. Once dry, THC-potent marijuana can be smoked and you will get high. Every THC molecule must shed their moisture content before they are fully psychoactive.

In other words fresh green marijuana will not be very potent.

When you cut a plant or plant part and hang it to dry, the transport of fluids within the plant continues, but at a slower rate. Stomata, small openings on leaf undersides, close soon after harvest and drying is slowed since little water vapor escapes. The natural plant processes slowly come to an end as the plant dries. The outer cells are the first to dry, but fluid still moves from internal cells to supply moisture to the dry outer cells. When this process occurs properly, the plant dries evenly throughout. Removing leaves and large stems upon harvest speeds drying, however, moisture content within the “dried” buds, leaves and stems is most often uneven.

Quick drying also traps chlorophylls and other pigments, starch and nitrates within plant tissue, making it taste “green” burn unevenly and taste bad.

Taste and aroma improve when these pigments break down.

Slow even drying – where the humidity is similar inside and outside the foliage – allows enough time for the pigments to degrade. Hanging entire plants to dry allows this process to occur over time, about 3-4 weeks at 50-60 percent relative humidity and a temperature range of 60-70 degrees F. (15-21 degrees C.) The large outer leaves also form a protective sheath around buds. This protective foliage shields resin glands on buds from rupture and bruising. Removing large leaves and stems upon harvest saves time. This is what most growers do, because fresh supple leaves are easier to work with than dry leaves. When you are looking a manicuring 5 kilos, you make it as easy as possible! However, this process often causes uneven drying and keeps moisture inside the foliage.

This is why it is important to “cure” the “dry” marijuana.Curing lets the plants continue to dry slowly. The first week of curing affects potency in that it removes moisture within the bud evenly, so that virtually all the THC is psychoactive.

Curing also allows buds to dry enough so that mold does not grow when it is stored. A well-cured bud will also burn with an even glow.Note: Rough handling and friction from fondling hands will bruise and knock off resin glands. Even with proper drying and curing, brutal handling of harvested marijuana will diminish THC content.

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genetics and memetics- most important things

tafbang said:

"curing does NOT increase potency - it breaks down the THC-A into the active form. It does break down starches into sugars, making the bud taste sweeter. The chlorophyll is also broken down, which gets rid of that 'herby' homegrown taste most people don't like." got this from a weed scientist on here. glad he agrees

yeah, I respected the fact that you said that it was what you heard. but with or without the taste, I'm pretty sure that as long as your weed is dry the potency will be at it's prime. and curing only helps the taste if that's a problem to a person. but too long of curing will only make things degrade.

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lolz weed scientist

Cheese2011 said:

bin the cfl get a halide for veg and an hps for flower what the diffrence

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why would you come to a cfl forum and say this? did you expect a pat on the back. piss off twerp..

and tafbang everything dude is saying is proven. tried tested and proven...