Large selection breeding

kona gold

Well-Known Member
I see alot of breeders that think the only way to get the best selection from the strain they are trying to breed is to select from as many seeds as possible.
I know you can find some great pheno's this way, but is it the best way to breed?
I am not sure it is and these are some reasons i think why:
1. You must grow large numbers, have room and have to plan ahead.
2. You have to clone every plant,male n female, then grow them out to make a selection....huge numbers potentially and time.
3. When you grow thousands of seeds i would think that, even with good notes, you might lose sight of your original goals. With sooo much to select from, ideas can drift from original, into a muttled state of confusion, where you might select the best of the plants, but they might be different than the ones you might have originally wanted to select.

I hope to get some feedback on this, and possibly other ideas and techniques that you might want to share.

Mahalo
 

greenghost420

Well-Known Member
you seen all the strains matt riot offers, like 200. im thinking the best way to breed is aquire as many clone-only strains(clones obviously not seed) and cross them to other clone-onlys. all you need is a few grow tents, a bunch of t-5s keep the clones in solo cups and you can stack like 3 rows per tent loaded with solo cups. or are you speaking in terms of just finding your selections, as he has let everyone do the selecting. lol not to mention hes not the only one but look at how many clone only he has in seed. crazy
 

Bigtacofarmer

Well-Known Member
Its not that it takes a huge selection to breed good weed. It takes a large selection to fix the traits and make a stable strain. If you want to find the same flavors and highs, and make truly predictable results it requires large populations. Not to say amazing weed can't come from a few good beans.
 

kona gold

Well-Known Member
you seen all the strains matt riot offers, like 200. im thinking the best way to breed is aquire as many clone-only strains(clones obviously not seed) and cross them to other clone-onlys. all you need is a few grow tents, a bunch of t-5s keep the clones in solo cups and you can stack like 3 rows per tent loaded with solo cups. or are you speaking in terms of just finding your selections, as he has let everyone do the selecting. lol not to mention hes not the only one but look at how many clone only he has in seed. crazy
Thanks for ypur reply....it did make me giggle once or twice.

No i wasn't talking about clones directly, although they are part of the process, but not using them to cross with initally.

I'm talking about breeders(sensi, serious, and others) that claim to grow out thousands of seeds. They feel this technique is far superior to breeders that use a smaller selection process. But with soooo much to select from, i feel it's possible to lose site of your goal, where on smaller selections you are able to maintain your original ideas and goals, potential leading to more distict strains and better consistancy.
 

diet coke

Active Member
If they are trying to create or improve a line of seed, then you want the largest selection available.

No pheno hunt for me, no room. Stable predictable strains for my grows is what I like.

Just find plants you like and go :) I just crossed White Widow and Berry Bomb. Good times
 

Jogro

Well-Known Member
The question is, why when you breed, do you need to do selection from large numbers of plants?

The answer is simple. Every single trait you're interested in (flavor, color, potency, growth characteristics, etc) assorts independently.

That means the chance of any one offspring having the given trait you want is a coin toss (or throw of the dice), if you will.

Since the presumptive goal of selective breeding is down ALL the traits you're interested in into a stable line, to do that you'll effectively need to throw ALL heads.

If you want to throw heads 10 times in a row, you should expect to have to throw that coin (on average) about 1000 times to do it.

Likewise, if you want to find that one special plant that has ALL your traits, you'll need to grow out a large number, then select from that number.




you seen all the strains matt riot offers, like 200. im thinking the best way to breed is aquire as many clone-only strains(clones obviously not seed) and cross them to other clone-onlys. all you need is a few grow tents, a bunch of t-5s keep the clones in solo cups and you can stack like 3 rows per tent loaded with solo cups. or are you speaking in terms of just finding your selections, as he has let everyone do the selecting. lol not to mention hes not the only one but look at how many clone only he has in seed. crazy
First of all, Riot isn't a "breeder" in any sense of the term. He's basically just a "collector." He acquires rare strains (by deception, trade, or purchase), then either self pollinates or crosses them.

Selfing a plant or crossing two clone-only lines to create an unstable hybrid isn't "breeding", its just "pollen chucking". If you start with exceptional genetics when you do this, you can create good plants, but the fact is most of the time you do this, you'll end up with something that's not as good as EITHER parent. Much of the time it will be hermie prone, too.

If you look at real breeders, they typically take 2+ years to develop EACH line. . .there is no shortcut possible to doing it right, IF you want to create novel and stable new lines, because you have to go through many generations to stabilize the traits you're after.
 

Jogro

Well-Known Member
Its not that it takes a huge selection to breed good weed. It takes a large selection to fix the traits and make a stable strain. If you want to find the same flavors and highs, and make truly predictable results it requires large populations. Not to say amazing weed can't come from a few good beans.
Lets clarify something.

You can find a great hybrid plant by dumb luck, then clone it indefinitely. That's what most of the "clone only" lines are. . .individual excellent plants that some grower recognized as great, then perpetuated as clones. The more plants you grow out, the more likely you are to find exceptionally good ones; that's just the "bell curve" in action. If you want to find that "one in a million" plant, the more plants you comb through, the more likely you are to find it.

But in my opinion there is a significant difference between identifying excellent individual plants and breeding. Breeding implies doing directed crosses, in an attempt to isolate and stabilize traits. Doing selections from large numbers can certainly help, and finding that one in a million "magic" pheno can be useful, but neither of these two things may be necessary. It will really depend on what you're starting with and what you're trying to accomplish with the breeding project.

For example, lets say you wanted to create an autoflowering version of a popular strain. In reality, all you're really doing is introducing just one single trait to an already existing and hopefully already stable line. In a case like this, a significant proportion of the offspring of your crosses would be expected to possess this new trait (say 1/4 of the F2s), and therefore you shouldn't need to do selections from thousands or even hundreds of individual plants to isolate it. . .only a dozen per generation will probably be enough. It will still make many generations to stabilize the line, but the actual selection part here should be fairly straightforward.

Kona Gold
I'm talking about breeders(sensi, serious, and others) that claim to grow out thousands of seeds. They feel this technique is far superior to breeders that use a smaller selection process. But with soooo much to select from, i feel it's possible to lose site of your goal, where on smaller selections you are able to maintain your original ideas and goals, potential leading to more distict strains and better consistancy.
The exact opposite is true. If you know what you're doing and actually have set a real goal (rather than the "lets cross these things and see what happens" approach), the more plants you have to select from, the more likely you'll be to identify excellent plants with all the traits you want, and the easier (not harder) it will be to either reach your goal, or to reach a fair conclusion that you won't be able to. While no doubt its physically (and possibly emotionally) harder to do the actual selection with larger numbers, selection from smaller pools typically entails more compromises. The bigger more famous breeders don't use large numbers because they don't know what they're doing or because they're "lazy". To the contrary, its a LOT more work, cost, and risk to run the big numbers projects. They do it because the larger the numbers they're selecting from, the less dumb luck plays a role in the outcome of the project, and the more likely they are to have a "breakthrough" that makes the project worthwhile.

On the actual numbers, its not just a claim. Doing a selection from several hundred plants during a proper breeding project is pretty typical. Remember, roughly half your plants will be male, and most of those get culled early. Depending on the nature of the project, you're also potentially maintaining a clone of EVERY plant, so that you have a "backup" and you can immediately start work on the next generation after you've made your selection. If you wanted to do an F2 selection from 50 female plants you'd expect to have to grow around 100 plants to sexual maturity.

I think most serious breeders would tell you they'd actually want more plants to do the early selections from, but 100 plants is the "magic" number that invokes Federal jurisdiction, and its typically a line most American growers/breeders respect.

Why so many? Lets say you wanted to isolate one recessive Mendellian trait. You'd only expect to see one plant like that out of four grown from heterozygous F1 parents. Now lets say you wanted to isolate THREE such traits (or one, that was controlled by three different recessive genes). . .you'd only expect to see one plant with all three traits out of 64 plants. That's already a already a larger number than the size of your selection pool. Even if you had 64 plants, you still might not get that pheno you're after, just by dumb luck (EG its possible to flip a coin twenty times, but NOT get three heads in a row. . .it happens). To ensure a high likelihood that you'd get it, you'd want many MORE than just 64 (maybe 2-3x as many). Without going through more math, in a nutshell, the larger the number of plants you've got, the more likely you'll be to find the rarer combinations you're looking for.

Anyway, if you want to do the same intensity of selection for F2 and F3, you're already potentially up to 200 total plants grown, more if you're cloning them. As you get further up the generations (F4. F5, etc) the plants should become more inbred, the variability less, and therefore the size of the pools you need to do your selection from can be significantly smaller. But add it up and you're still potentially looking at several hundred plants/project.

This, by the way, is why true breeders CAN'T suddenly bring 20 new "strains" to market, not real strains, anyway. It just takes so many plants grown, and so much time invested in growing and selecting for even ONE good project, that no one person can run more than a small number of these at once, meaning no more than a few new strains per breeder per year. If you look at the bigger "name" breeders, most of these guys weren't doing everything with their own two hands. . .they'd be working with a team to maintain the plants, cut clones, etc. Otherwise, things become unmanageable.
 
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Very nice post.
Lets clarify something.

You can find a great hybrid plant by dumb luck, then clone it indefinitely. That's what most of the "clone only" lines are. . .individual excellent plants that some grower recognized as great, then perpetuated as clones. The more plants you grow out, the more likely you are to find exceptionally good ones; that's just the "bell curve" in action. If you want to find that "one in a million" plant, the more plants you comb through, the more likely you are to find it.

But in my opinion there is a significant difference between identifying excellent individual plants and breeding. Breeding implies doing directed crosses, in an attempt to isolate and stabilize traits. Doing selections from large numbers can certainly help, and finding that one in a million "magic" pheno can be useful, but neither of these two things may be necessary. It will really depend on what you're starting with and what you're trying to accomplish with the breeding project.

For example, lets say you wanted to create an autoflowering version of a popular strain. In reality, all you're really doing is introducing just one single trait to an already existing and hopefully already stable line. In a case like this, a significant proportion of the offspring of your crosses would be expected to possess this new trait (say 1/4 of the F2s), and therefore you shouldn't need to do selections from thousands or even hundreds of individual plants to isolate it. . .only a dozen per generation will probably be enough. It will still make many generations to stabilize the line, but the actual selection part here should be fairly straightforward.


The exact opposite is true. If you know what you're doing and actually have set a real goal (rather than the "lets cross these things and see what happens" approach), the more plants you have to select from, the more likely you'll be to identify excellent plants with all the traits you want, and the easier (not harder) it will be to either reach your goal, or to reach a fair conclusion that you won't be able to. While no doubt its physically (and possibly emotionally) harder to do the actual selection with larger numbers, selection from smaller pools typically entails more compromises. The bigger more famous breeders don't use large numbers because they don't know what they're doing or because they're "lazy". To the contrary, its a LOT more work, cost, and risk to run the big numbers projects. They do it because the larger the numbers they're selecting from, the less dumb luck plays a role in the outcome of the project, and the more likely they are to have a "breakthrough" that makes the project worthwhile.

On the actual numbers, its not just a claim. Doing a selection from several hundred plants during a proper breeding project is pretty typical. Remember, roughly half your plants will be male, and most of those get culled early. Depending on the nature of the project, you're also potentially maintaining a clone of EVERY plant, so that you have a "backup" and you can immediately start work on the next generation after you've made your selection. If you wanted to do an F2 selection from 50 female plants you'd expect to have to grow around 100 plants to sexual maturity.

I think most serious breeders would tell you they'd actually want more plants to do the early selections from, but 100 plants is the "magic" number that invokes Federal jurisdiction, and its typically a line most American growers/breeders respect.

Why so many? Lets say you wanted to isolate one recessive Mendellian trait. You'd only expect to see one plant like that out of four grown from heterozygous F1 parents. Now lets say you wanted to isolate THREE such traits (or one, that was controlled by three different recessive genes). . .you'd only expect to see one plant with all three traits out of 64 plants. That's already a already a larger number than the size of your selection pool. Even if you had 64 plants, you still might not get that pheno you're after, just by dumb luck (EG its possible to flip a coin twenty times, but NOT get three heads in a row. . .it happens). To ensure a high likelihood that you'd get it, you'd want many MORE than just 64 (maybe 2-3x as many). Without going through more math, in a nutshell, the larger the number of plants you've got, the more likely you'll be to find the rarer combinations you're looking for.

Anyway, if you want to do the same intensity of selection for F2 and F3, you're already potentially up to 200 total plants grown, more if you're cloning them. As you get further up the generations (F4. F5, etc) the plants should become more inbred, the variability less, and therefore the size of the pools you need to do your selection from can be significantly smaller. But add it up and you're still potentially looking at several hundred plants/project.

This, by the way, is why true breeders CAN'T suddenly bring 20 new "strains" to market, not real strains, anyway. It just takes so many plants grown, and so much time invested in growing and selecting for even ONE good project, that no one person can run more than a small number of these at once, meaning no more than a few new strains per breeder per year. If you look at the bigger "name" breeders, most of these guys weren't doing everything with their own two hands. . .they'd be working with a team to maintain the plants, cut clones, etc. Otherwise, things become unmanageable.
 

PaulN'Chuck

Well-Known Member
I wanna say there's no wrong answer here. Some of these groups we consider "breeders" have taken popular clone only strains, crossed them with a male they have on stock, and release the seeds. Or at least called it a cross and gave out Testers...
Some of our American breeders dont grow out thousands of seeds and they put out quite amazing seeds, strains, and crosses. Truthfully I believe in growing out the numbers but seeing as we all cant, I think a reasonable result can be produced by growing 50-100 seeds a year (these are obviously rough numbers)
 

Jogro

Well-Known Member
I wanna say there's no wrong answer here. Some of these groups we consider "breeders" have taken popular clone only strains, crossed them with a male they have on stock, and release the seeds. Or at least called it a cross and gave out Testers...
This is true, and many of these F1s are potentially great in their own right, but its not really "breeding", per se.

It also bears repeating the the "clone only" parent plant ITSELF probably represents an individual exceptional plant, selected from thousands or more likely tens of thousands of plants grown. It just happens that the critical selection that recognized the select clone in question was done by someone else.

The male parent itself also probably represents an exceptional select individual.

Some of our American breeders dont grow out thousands of seeds and they put out quite amazing seeds, strains, and crosses.
Well, see above. If you're already starting with stuff that's exceptionally good and highly selected, then the hardest part of the process was done before you started. The issue then becomes stabilizing your line, which is something that most breeders are NOT doing nowadays.

For example, if you look at most of the "hot" new breeders, while they will typically have a few "name" strains that they worked themselves, most of their catalogs still consist of F1s or other relatively unworked hybrids created by simple crosses of other elite lines, or crosses of their lines x others. You really don't need many plants to do this at all, its just about keeping mothers (and maybe fathers) of your most prized ones.

I believe in growing out the numbers but seeing as we all cant, I think a reasonable result can be produced by growing 50-100 seeds a year (these are obviously rough numbers)
Agreeing, this just depends on what you're trying to do. I think you can get a "reasonable" result by popping just a few ceeds and cloning them. . .the key is to select the right ones to start with!

Personally, I wouldn't call it "breeding" but you can make absolutely GREAT ceeds just by crossing two individuals from a high quality inbred line to create more like them. If you have access to elite cuts (and at this point, some of them are as hard to get as walking into a dispensary and shelling out $20), and know how to "reverse" a plant, you can make high quality (though unstable) feminized ceeds that will be as good as many commercial ceeds.
 
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