SPLFreak808
Well-Known Member
Am i missing something? Isnt more plants exposed to the bulb in vert vs a 4x4? Isnt the light hitting more bud sites in general with a vert grow? Why wouldnt the yield be higher?
lb per 1000w?
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2ANONYMOUS
Well-Known Member
how much loss do you think you get from reflected light ??? ??? not much anymore 3 - 5 percent loss waht loss of light do you ge from vertical when plant is suppose to be the actual wall and its not cause plants are to small
you ever wonder why people tend to say open ended so much cooler ?? its cause the energy i lost so much master
simple do a test you got a reflector and a bare bulb ???? fire it up check temps at 24 " away on both lets not forget heat is also energy so more heat is more energy common sense really all of light diected one way as in par / power compared to on being shot 360 degrees make sense
you ever wonder why people tend to say open ended so much cooler ?? its cause the energy i lost so much master
simple do a test you got a reflector and a bare bulb ???? fire it up check temps at 24 " away on both lets not forget heat is also energy so more heat is more energy common sense really all of light diected one way as in par / power compared to on being shot 360 degrees make sense
Do you have a reference for that?
I thought reflection loss was more substantial than that. The guys on the LED forum could answer this question in a jiffy.
Frankly, I think you guys are talking about much the same thing. Whether to flatten the plant and supply all the light from above (which implies reflection losses). Or, to put the light at the unflattened plants' sides and deliver it that way (in which case, there would be no reflection loss when lighting the center of plants).
It seems to me to be the proverbial "six of one... half dozen of the other." I sidelight which is just taking some of the overhead watts and supplying it through the sides of the plant. It makes a huge difference in my experience. That doesn't mean flattened top-down isn't similar. Just two ways to skin the same cat, I think.
hondagrower420
Well-Known Member
2ANONYMOUS
Well-Known Member
First of all there is a sweet spot with vertical hence why so many double stack but the problem is you can only put so many plants in that Donut or area sure put lots of plants double stacked rows in that sweet spot but the end result is small yields per plant where is the advantage ???? space thats it not more yield from it ... cause again your harvesting lots of small plants lots of plants with small yields ,, more time workin controlling plants
where as lets say same person grows 25 - 30 plants under 1 k tops once and harvests quality bud But the truth is really is what most vertical growers are pulling and them numbers do not lie its all over the net .. Again most are dwelling on the vert growers using multiple lighting and pulling some decent numbers same but again are blind to the fact amazing numbers are being done with multiple lighting horizontal as well
1 - 2 light grows the money is is Horizontal
Sure vertical again is idea for that grower iin confined to space ,
This is a good time to address Vertical being thy seem to appear to claim it out yields Horizontal when going up against it seems to fail ...
If a horizontal grower used 1 k and pulled .5 - .7 And these are the numbers from 100 's of documented journals all over the net Vertical seem to be pulling ???? That horizontal grower fucked up tremendously,,
but you know what for the vert it did well lol
2ANONYMOUS
Well-Known Member
No one ever said adding suplimental side lighting will in deed help
, but if you got good over head lighting there is no need for it
PS what 2 plus pound plants look like buds from all of plants not one side lol
, but if you got good over head lighting there is no need for it
PS what 2 plus pound plants look like buds from all of plants not one side lol
a mongo frog
Well-Known Member
What strain is that? Is that the DE room? How much veg time? Wonderful grow dude!!!!
m4s73r
Well-Known Member
I just posted the start of my grow room on the vert forum.and that was a mt, supposed to be 4x3.5. Had to go measure them again. theyre 42"wide x 48"tall
This. Also why you should scrog so you get a even canopy.
Um i get loss? With a bare bulb throwing light all around theres no loss. You see the plants are AROUND the bulb. so 360 degrees of plant canopy around a bulb or 2. so what your saying is the reflected light adds to the one half of the bulb shooting down? If so then how do you account for 2 bulbs? or the warehouses that just use a whole bunch of bare bulbs?
Sorry dude, your argument doesnt make sense. and posting pics of bushes doesnt mean anything. If the same plant was stretched out on a screen it would be the same things. the difference is the side of the plant gets the light vs the top. its not that much different.
2ANONYMOUS
Well-Known Member
of course there is loss Light does travel through plants leafs Quantum Biology to say your not lossing energy growing vertical would be a lie, least horizontally the light that travels through gets used in the mid to lower plant bud production
so if i was to go vertical which TBH i see no point for my application is making sure i my vertical cage would in FACT have mylar to help reflect light that does pass and trust me it does pass through plants
so if i was to go vertical which TBH i see no point for my application is making sure i my vertical cage would in FACT have mylar to help reflect light that does pass and trust me it does pass through plants
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bird mcbride
Well-Known Member
I average about 17.5 oz every ten weeks with a single 1kw hps that's seen too many grows, crappy fertilizer and hardly no effort.
SOG F&D Perpetual
You'd have to be a horrible farmer to get less than a lb per 1kw.
SOG F&D Perpetual
You'd have to be a horrible farmer to get less than a lb per 1kw.
2ANONYMOUS
Well-Known Member
We're not talking small plants though. Flipped at 12-18" you can be talking more than 2 feet tall and wide. It only takes a few of them to give you close to your gpw in yield, and with regards to yield, we're going in circles really. The numbers are all that matter and the gpw ratios of a lot of vert growers doesn't justify your claim that flat can't compete. In many cases the opposite applies.
You've got to factor in the work involved, and when I'm talking about training and low plant numbers, at the risk of repeating myself, I'm talking about topping a plant, vegging it to 18" or so, and flipping it and being able to guarantee a minimum yield of top buds from that. I honestly don't think you can do that with a vertical unless you're surrounding the plant with bulbs.
And again your taking 6 x 4 ??? can i ask how many watts ??? to get 350 grams ??? vertical or not sorry that is terrible numbers
I mean here 432 watts T 5 Ho
and 2 pounds 
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boilingoil
Well-Known Member
I'd be disappointed if I don't get a pound from my 600.
m4s73r
Well-Known Member
I fully agree with you. I was sorta drunk last night. Light does penetrate. You know i have a big ass roll of mylar. I may do just that.
Ok so lets say, that theres no difference. All my grows say otherwise, but for arguments sake lets say it does no better.We're not talking small plants though. Flipped at 12-18" you can be talking more than 2 feet tall and wide. It only takes a few of them to give you close to your gpw in yield, and with regards to yield, we're going in circles really. The numbers are all that matter and the gpw ratios of a lot of vert growers doesn't justify your claim that flat can't compete. In many cases the opposite applies.
You've got to factor in the work involved, and when I'm talking about training and low plant numbers, at the risk of repeating myself, I'm talking about topping a plant, vegging it to 18" or so, and flipping it and being able to guarantee a minimum yield of top buds from that. I honestly don't think you can do that with a vertical unless you're surrounding the plant with bulbs.
And again your taking 6 x 4 ??? can i ask how many watts ??? to get 350 grams ??? vertical or not sorry that is terrible numbers
I mean here 432 watts T 5 Ho View attachment 3567648 and 2 pounds
Why would you spend the extra money on reflectors if there was no production gain? I mean a reflector can range from 50-400 bucks / light. Depending on the size of the grow, thats some money. I guess for me, a $33 dollar socket is better then a $200 dollar reflector. For my bloom room i have 366 bucks in it. that cost jumps to 766 with reflectors. Cheaper for the win.
Maybe it is the type of growing were doing. I am not growing to sell anything. I grow for personal use. If i was going to grow for production, id proly do it outside.
2ANONYMOUS
Well-Known Member
Ok i never came in here to say this way is better then that way of growing , its what ever works best in your situation.
Truthfully, speaking if we were to take the magic chart of 135 percent more space that so many claim to make vertical so much better in real world settings then should we no see 135 percent more yield ??? if we did there be no debate
and yes making a outside diameter cage in mylar and having inside cage the actual screen would in fact be a choice the better choice trapping in iight ,, making it more efficient ..
The real Truth is Vertical has been around for some time now and for growers to claim it to be superior to horizontal , it appears to be a big lie
The numbers are not matching up its not better its just another style of growing.
You mention why would i spent extra money on a reflector ???? Reflectors are not expensive , again 150 bucks for 1000 watt with reflector that is cheap in my books to make 1.5 pounds easily ( Mag Ballast kits ) couple of them and your in business .
Know one ever said growing was cheap , actually its expensive to grow food, soil , gear , power environment controls ,bills etc..
And lets face it in order to get nice joined up buds tight internodes is key vertical tends to give lots of larfy buds as well as horizontal but at the end its all about grade A buds , in vertical growing lower buds tend to be small cause of no joining internodes so that one bud grows only so big but what happens when dried its a real small bud that eventually ends up being shake in the bag
So again numbers can be deceiving, like you said you grow or personal use so you may add up all the larf buds into yield.
Where as a grower growing for production of sales will not cause they will not buy shake .. so again numbers can be miss leading ..
But i am trying to relay a point that Vertical by no means means better yields
People need to know that vertical is a responsibility which requires time and knowledge and commitment to pull off even 1gpw...
I honestly would advise any new grower looking to safely and consistently hit close to that figure of good quality A grade buds, to grow horizontally.Horizontal growing is dependable and consistent, even without paying any attention at all throughout the grow. Can you honestly say the same about vertical? Maybe with multiple bulbs and enough space yes, but not otherwise. There are variables which change the perspective of the argument, but by and large the point remains.
You mentioned you do better vertically There's no way you can make a claim like that with any validation. I mean you can believe it, but it's a hypothetical point. but if you were to do a side by side un bias and no training vegged 2 weeks and flipped again no training you might be surprised at the outcome .
See becoming a better grower is like playing your favorite game lol Once you've leveled up your experience and you're past burning your plants or failing with clones etc, I would say horizontal guarantees a respectable return every time. I don't think the same about vert, I've got to say it.
I've seen people on here pull down grows at 0.5gpw and even below, who are experienced growers who have done multiple runs with the same methods. The reason for this is the one thing people don't seem to want to talk about when discussing vert growing, and that is the fact that it will punish you with shameful yields and heart breaking amounts of shite if you don't maintain it properly. That is a fact that should be taken into consideration.
If we can talk about the benefits of vertical growing, it's only right to talk about the drawbacks too.
I'll say this straight to any new growers reading: don't go into it thinking that the light chart and 135% more growing area translates easily into your final yield. It absolutely does not, and I think a lot of people are fooled into thinking that way by the fact that vertical growing is projected using figures such as those.
Do it because you want to try something new, but not because it's a way to guarantee bigger or even better yields, because in my experience it isn't. You only have to do your reading to see that for many other people, it isn't either.
It is a cool way to grow, and fun. But it's got to be projected properly and the truth I think gets lost a bit in the myth.
With a nice long columnar strain though, it can be a cracking way to get the most out of it. I think vert really comes into it's own in that instance.
But then again longer veg times are needed
SPL ?? i think i read that you think that vertical will give you more in a 4 x 4 area ?? i dunno man i mean with average yields of .5 - .7 vertical growers are achieving on sites today based on every documented grow on the internet .. i truly beg to differ i mean how many plants can you put in a 4 x 4 vert single bulb ??? compared to 3 gallon sog style horizontally veg one week or 2 and flip SOG for the win every time vert needs long veg times here a buddies vert grow vegged if i remember correctly 7 -8 weeks 12,000 watts vertical only to make under 12 pounds GPW ??????
If he would of ran it horizontally i would bet he would of been 18- 24 pound harvest
But in 4 x 4 shit i would pack em in there 25 - 30 plants in a bed veg 2 weeks and flip under 1 k and kill it
Truthfully, speaking if we were to take the magic chart of 135 percent more space that so many claim to make vertical so much better in real world settings then should we no see 135 percent more yield ??? if we did there be no debate
and yes making a outside diameter cage in mylar and having inside cage the actual screen would in fact be a choice the better choice trapping in iight ,, making it more efficient ..
The real Truth is Vertical has been around for some time now and for growers to claim it to be superior to horizontal , it appears to be a big lie
The numbers are not matching up its not better its just another style of growing.
You mention why would i spent extra money on a reflector ???? Reflectors are not expensive , again 150 bucks for 1000 watt with reflector that is cheap in my books to make 1.5 pounds easily ( Mag Ballast kits ) couple of them and your in business .
Know one ever said growing was cheap , actually its expensive to grow food, soil , gear , power environment controls ,bills etc..
And lets face it in order to get nice joined up buds tight internodes is key vertical tends to give lots of larfy buds as well as horizontal but at the end its all about grade A buds , in vertical growing lower buds tend to be small cause of no joining internodes so that one bud grows only so big but what happens when dried its a real small bud that eventually ends up being shake in the bag
So again numbers can be deceiving, like you said you grow or personal use so you may add up all the larf buds into yield.
Where as a grower growing for production of sales will not cause they will not buy shake .. so again numbers can be miss leading ..
But i am trying to relay a point that Vertical by no means means better yields
People need to know that vertical is a responsibility which requires time and knowledge and commitment to pull off even 1gpw...
I honestly would advise any new grower looking to safely and consistently hit close to that figure of good quality A grade buds, to grow horizontally.Horizontal growing is dependable and consistent, even without paying any attention at all throughout the grow. Can you honestly say the same about vertical? Maybe with multiple bulbs and enough space yes, but not otherwise. There are variables which change the perspective of the argument, but by and large the point remains.
You mentioned you do better vertically There's no way you can make a claim like that with any validation. I mean you can believe it, but it's a hypothetical point. but if you were to do a side by side un bias and no training vegged 2 weeks and flipped again no training you might be surprised at the outcome .
See becoming a better grower is like playing your favorite game lol Once you've leveled up your experience and you're past burning your plants or failing with clones etc, I would say horizontal guarantees a respectable return every time. I don't think the same about vert, I've got to say it.
I've seen people on here pull down grows at 0.5gpw and even below, who are experienced growers who have done multiple runs with the same methods. The reason for this is the one thing people don't seem to want to talk about when discussing vert growing, and that is the fact that it will punish you with shameful yields and heart breaking amounts of shite if you don't maintain it properly. That is a fact that should be taken into consideration.
If we can talk about the benefits of vertical growing, it's only right to talk about the drawbacks too.
I'll say this straight to any new growers reading: don't go into it thinking that the light chart and 135% more growing area translates easily into your final yield. It absolutely does not, and I think a lot of people are fooled into thinking that way by the fact that vertical growing is projected using figures such as those.
Do it because you want to try something new, but not because it's a way to guarantee bigger or even better yields, because in my experience it isn't. You only have to do your reading to see that for many other people, it isn't either.
It is a cool way to grow, and fun. But it's got to be projected properly and the truth I think gets lost a bit in the myth.
With a nice long columnar strain though, it can be a cracking way to get the most out of it. I think vert really comes into it's own in that instance.
But then again longer veg times are needed
SPL ?? i think i read that you think that vertical will give you more in a 4 x 4 area ?? i dunno man i mean with average yields of .5 - .7 vertical growers are achieving on sites today based on every documented grow on the internet .. i truly beg to differ i mean how many plants can you put in a 4 x 4 vert single bulb ??? compared to 3 gallon sog style horizontally veg one week or 2 and flip SOG for the win every time vert needs long veg times here a buddies vert grow vegged if i remember correctly 7 -8 weeks 12,000 watts vertical only to make under 12 pounds GPW ??????
If he would of ran it horizontally i would bet he would of been 18- 24 pound harvest
But in 4 x 4 shit i would pack em in there 25 - 30 plants in a bed veg 2 weeks and flip under 1 k and kill it
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Oregon Gardener
Well-Known Member
I have an educated hunch it may get a little toasty in there.
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orbo
Well-Known Member
I know, right? 12,000 Watts in a 9 x 9.... Here's a video of a 10,000 Watt grow. Room looks to be about 25' x 25' and the plants are like 8' tall. Looks like maybe 60 or 80 plants.
So I started thinking, you might be able to pull off 12,000 Watts in a 9' x 9'......if the ceiling is 65' tall....!!!!
Oregon Gardener
Well-Known Member
I don't know if I agree with your math. What if you just stacked e'm on top of each other like this. A person could easily get that many watts in a 9x9. Just say'n. ( with the air of course)I know, right? 12,000 Watts in a 9 x 9.... Here's a video of a 10,000 Watt grow. Room looks to be about 25' x 25' and the plants are like 8' tall. Looks like maybe 60 or 80 plants.
So I started thinking, you might be able to pull off 12,000 Watts in a 9' x 9'......if the ceiling is 65' tall....!!!!
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2ANONYMOUS
Well-Known Member
that has got to be the biggest waste of time more money then brains were talkin 148 watts per sq Ft this makes a new meaning to light bleaching WTF man @ 4000 BTU per 1000 watt to cool add 5 ton AC unit into the equation man oh man this reminds me need to watch the movie dumb and dumber i would not go over 60 watts per Sq foot so in 9 x 9 area half that 6 k would be over kill..I know, right? 12,000 Watts in a 9 x 9.... Here's a video of a 10,000 Watt grow. Room looks to be about 25' x 25' and the plants are like 8' tall. Looks like maybe 60 or 80 plants.
So I started thinking, you might be able to pull off 12,000 Watts in a 9' x 9'......if the ceiling is 65' tall....!!!!
There really is a point of diminishing returns start @ 4 k shit @ 40 watts per Sq foot @ 5 week veg does great why so much over kill here 3 k 75 Sq Feet
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orbo
Well-Known Member
I'm suggesting the lights would be mounted 65' above the soil but I see what you're saying. Holy cow that would be hot.
Oregon Gardener
Well-Known Member
Don't pay any attention to me, it's Saturday and I have smoked way too much hash.
