LED Comparisons?

Greengenes707 said:

It just gets old when people see something then say there must be a cheaper on that can compare...
There isn't even an expensive light that is doing what the at600 has done.
If cheaper lights worked like that you would have no problem finding evidence because a shit ton of people would be doing it.

You keep saying what your dorm grow will do...it looks really good, but looks can be deceiving....final weight is all that matters. My BBK looked like 2lbs...barley 1 when all said and done.
Same with my recent grow.
So when you have an actual yield goal, we can recommend what should perform to your needs. Till then pics of an unfinished grow keep us in the dark as much as no pics.
Nice grow though

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SupraSPL said:

Sounds like an awesome project, I think you will be happy with the 3000K Cree XML2s in the Onyx Bloom.

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DANKSWAG said:

Greengenes, not sure if you are following this anymore I truly understand you get what you pay for, but you can over pay as well comparatively I think it works both ways. I even think since this thread begin we see prices falling and product improvements. I think it is wrong to say what works today is good enough for tomorrow, somewhere between cost and yield there is a happy place for us all.

Pray tell at what point will you move on past the AT600?

DankSwag

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Greengenes707 said:

I get you...but you were not talking about future lights or anything down the line...you were trying to match it at that point in time...
And even now, I still stand by the at600...specially if COBs are not considered since they are DIY...because the few production cobs of that caliber I have seen make AT600's look like pocket change per watt. I agree over 2K is too much...but at 2K, it is a feasible investment imo. At 1500 they would be flying out the doors and would be taking over already.

The AT600 is a true led work of art, by any standards... the at600 rocks 43% efficient chips...same as cxa@1.4a. It has been said by some that production lights(even the best) are just over 30% efficient...that is not true for the at600(and a few others). I don't know the official LER of the nichia spectrum AT uses(which is 6100K white doing 140lm/w)...but the average white LER's are seeming to be about 320lm-325lm...so using 322 gives AT 43.5% efficient. Worst case scenario it would have to have a LER of over 350lm(ridiculously unlikely) to be under 40% efficient. The same numbers we are cuming for about the CXA's and vero's. And that is all based off the 700ma drive current...Apache drives softer than that(~575ma for my 685w version) and thus is even more efficient. Plus use a lens to focus it and massive heatsinks. Other than the cost of AT's...even top bin cxa's make me a little insecure about changing soon.
I have a cob project that will make me put one AT600 on the back burner for a little. The change worries me...but I will take the leap for "newer" tech. And my own self accomplishments.

And don't think we haven seen any new tech since this started, specially anything implemented...everything has been around for a year or more. I think that it's just now people are starting to toy with different things since it's getting easier with cobs so more proof of DIY'ing and general led performance is evident.

My rant is over

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DANKSWAG said:

I agree I would give my money in a heartbeat to LED DIY Master I've know of on this forum, the same person who encouraged me to go with Onyx Bloom as a better option then the Dorm Grow LEDs I have been using. However I have yet to get anywhere near with the GPW Onyx Bloom panels that I have with Dorm Grow.

Granted I only had one cycle with lights and in the course of that 8 week period I replaced one LED early with one from the other 4x4 area that had yet to have girls put under it. But for how long was that light out before I noticed cause for days during that cycle I would water prior to lights going on so there could of been significant time to effect the growth if just running on one light. Not to mention I struggled initially keeping heat and humidity down. So I am not really counting the GPW, four ounces from 4 plants in that 4x4 is unacceptable.

The goal is 4 ounces per plant. I am shooting for a pound from a 4x4 footprint, I know this will not be attainable using only 2 Onyx bloom lights supplying only 500 true watts of power, but I want to know the what is obtainable with ideal environment of soil, air and water under 500 watts and compare it the difference of adding a third light into the 4x4 providing 750 watts, ultimately I know I will need at least 750 watts of the right LED lights to produce what is possible using a 1000 watt HID or even get close too. I realize that 500 watts will leave me short but for now it is easier to manage the environment until I get the mini split in place to handle the additional heat from having two 4x4 areas within the 10x5.

Obviously my biggest drawback is the reliability of these ONYX panels and I will say this again I have cash for the right DIY LED fabricator for I am not happy with so far the GPW but then again as I said not having an ideal grow cycle completed due to either early environmental issues or led failure. Put aside the GPW the reliability factor is starting to take it's toll which means I have to carry 7 of these panels instead of 6 giving me one spare on hand in the event of assured immediate failure. One thing I can say about the DORM GROWS I have between myself an another person I know 8 panels and 4 spot LED Bloom bulbs at 14 watts for added coverage I have only had one unit fail in the near two years using them. Say what you want but I am speaking from experience I am disappointed with Onyx bloom LED panels but not yet discouraged, for I have had better luck and results to date with the Dorm Grow.

So this means there will be a BLOOM OFF... in one side of the 10x5 flower in a 4x4 section will be 3 Rapid ONYX BLOOM 750 watt total draw VS Dorm Grow Bloom panels totaling near or at 750 watts. Same environment, strain, soil, water and care only difference with be the LEDs bringing forth the Blooms.

This should reveal between the two companies what panel to move forward with and which one to sell on ebay.

DankSwag

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DutchHaze said:

are you still doing the bloom off? would like to see how it turns out

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SupraSPL said:

GG, did you get the brightness bin info from AT and is that 140lm/W at Tj50-60C and using minimum or typical numbers? The only reason I do not promote the AT is because if the very wide range of bins available from Nichia, it gives us nothing to go on (besides your very nice results using them of course). But everything is relative, so it would be great to know. The LER of 6100K could be tricky to determine because none of the curves Mr Flux analyzed were above 5000K and the 5000K LERs varied quite a bit (313-337).

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SupraSPL said:

GG, did you get the brightness bin info from AT and is that 140lm/W at Tj50-60C and using minimum or typical numbers? The only reason I do not promote the AT is because if the very wide range of bins available from Nichia, it gives us nothing to go on (besides your very nice results using them of course). But everything is relative, so it would be great to know. The LER of 6100K could be tricky to determine because none of the curves Mr Flux analyzed were above 5000K and the 5000K LERs varied quite a bit (313-337).

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Greengenes707 said:

The bins are just as wide as cree offers...
And yes I have known the bins for a long time now and said it a few. But people choose to ignore I guess...
B13(130-140@350) for the original batch with 119a, and is the top bin for the b4 color code.
View attachment 3298375


Newer at600's coming off the line are 119b in the d280 bin(280-303@700ma...or like 154or7@350ma)...also top bin for the color code. I will get a pic of that box next time I go down there(no idea when that will be).
I have brought it up to go with the sw50 or a different color in the 5K range that offers the highest bin possible period.


And I am/was pretty sure the LER would be lower than that...but I would rather error on the conservative side. So ya, it's even a hair more efficient. It is at 25c...but the numbers will still be solid warmed up a little.

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Greengenes707 said:

B13(130-140@350) for the original batch with 119a, and is the top bin for the b4 color code.
View attachment 3298375

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SupraSPL said:

I have never seen that part number, somehow I missed that info. I have never seen that data sheet either so thank you for providing that. I have dug around through the Nichia website and the PDFs I found had a huge range of bins and nothing to go on.

So with this PDF and bin info, at 600mA they dissipate 1.83W and create 210.6lm. That is 115lm/W. That is assuming ambient temp of 25C, whatever that means. Not cool of Nichia to jump to conclusions about our cooling power, Ta25C could mean Tj 85C, we have no idea what Tj they are referring to. Anyway, as suspected that output is not too great for a cool white, except being very cheap and plentiful for them to purchase. Using the same calculation (600mA Tj 50 minimum) The 5000K XML2 is 162lm/W, the XML2 6200K is 172lm/W, the XPL 5700K is 173lm/W Tj 50C. Granted those are expensive to run at 600mA, but you can see that if the Nichias are doing well at 115lm/W, just imagine the potential for the DIY setups. The drone for example should be about 137lm/W minimum, very good for a 3000K.

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Greengenes707 said:

Newer at600's coming off the line are 119b in the d280 bin(280-303@700ma...or like 154or7@350ma)...also top bin for the color code. I will get a pic of that box next time I go down there(no idea when that will be).

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SupraSPL said:

Hey DS, those are looking very nice! The 7C1 refers to the color tint, about 2900K. Mike posted that the brightness bin was T4, which is very good for a 2900K. As I said though, it would be very expensive to run XML2s at 700mA so the Onyx is running them at about 2A which has allowed them to offer the lowest price of any commercial panel $2.15/dissipation W. At 2A the T4 bin is 98lm/W minimum, assuming Tj 50C. That works out to 30% efficiency.

I would highly recommend removing the frosted lenses if you dont mind hacking your lamps. No good can come from taxing and scattering the photons IMO. Almost all commercial lamps use lenses, probably because they have to protect the LEDS anyway so it serves a dual purpose.

In the case of very high power COBs (like GGs drone) I can see the use of reflectors being helpful because there is too much output in a small area to keep them close to the canopy. Reflectors can allow you to raise the lamp without losing too much light out the sides. The main reason I don't use reflectors is because I am running soft enough (800mA) that they can be kept very close to the canopy and still get a decent spread. But you can make COB reflectors very easily and cheaply with white heat paint. I will probably end up using them in my veg area with the CXA3590s. I will take some light measurement before and after the reflectors are installed.

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Greengenes707 said:

@DANKSWAG .... looking good bro. Looks like you got the scrog down...nothing but tops there.

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