LED Without LEDs -My First T5 Grow

AquaMedic Plant Grow, ATI ProColor, AquaticLife Roseates, ZooMed FloraSun, CoralLife Colormax
Ozram Fluora77 *EU only, Sylvania Gro-lux *EU only

All have a peak at 660, and a majority of their output in the 610-660 region.

Bulb selection/balance.

I was reminded by someone recently that the thread was called LED WITHOUT LED's, and the point was to prove a concept, that the spectrums could be created without LED.
My personal opinion, I dont like LED's for growing. They're an incredible technology, I personally own a 9diode spotlight that can outshine any cars high beams and put a perfect circle spot on a wall almost a quarter mile away. But for growing, unless you got fat pockets (I dont), most people cant afford a quality high power fixture like Phaeton has (how much $ are those per fixture again?) T5's are expensive as hell, but do-able on a budget, unless you wanna get your pants pulled down with a chinese UFO off ebay, I prefer T5's. Thats all my opinion tho, Im sure I could be proven wrong. But Im fully invested in T5's here and love coming here to try to perfect my game with everyones help (for awhile there I was getting good info every single day, alot from blueb, thanks again and again and again)

BlueB said:

It would be a good thing to conclude this thread at some point...

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Im sure when Prof gets tired of his thread he may do that, however its been evolving since long before I ever got here, and Ive followed through quite a few twists and turns since I stumbled upon this highly informative/educatoinal/amusing thread Ive come to kinda call home. Not trying to put anyone down, just trying to keep the thread on track in Prof's vacation absense. I flowered using HPS, but I kept my input here restricted to T5 related convo and my experiences using them for Veg and to supplement Flowering.

I got two 8 bulb fixtures im going to be using for veg. Ive been reading through this thread and there are so many recommended variation of bulbs. Im just wondering what you guys think would be the best 8 bulb setup so far. I already picked up my clones and I am vegging them under old 6500k bulbs, so I kind of need to get my bulbs asap; preferably tomorrow. So if you guys could please help me choose the best configuration for veg. TY FAM!

AltarNation said:

Haha. It's true, it's true. However, it was a natural evolution as we attempted to fill the 660nm range. At least for me, that's the only reason I ended up off T5... to discuss supplementary needs..

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Undercover Cop said:

AquaMedic Plant Grow, ATI ProColor, AquaticLife Roseates, ZooMed FloraSun, CoralLife Colormax
Ozram Fluora77 *EU only, Sylvania Gro-lux *EU only

All have a peak at 660, and a majority of their output in the 610-660 region.

Bulb selection/balance.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the recommendations, I will look into those bulbs. It's not just about having the 660nm but also being able to provide a purely red source gives my overall blue:red ratio a big boost that is hard to attain with other fluoro tubes because they tend to contain a lot of blue as well as whatever red they might have. That being said, I must have overlooked that Aquamedic Plant Grow, it does look like it has a nice spike at 660.

Undercover Cop said:

AquaMedic Plant Grow, ATI ProColor, AquaticLife Roseates, ZooMed FloraSun, CoralLife Colormax
Ozram Fluora77 *EU only, Sylvania Gro-lux *EU only

All have a peak at 660, and a majority of their output in the 610-660 region.

Bulb selection/balance.

Click to expand...

Right, which makes them very useful. But those bulbs are designed around the aquarium industry. They are spec'd for illuminating plants that are under water, which require much more blue light unlike terrestrial plants. "Photosynthesis works most fundamentally from red light and secondarily fromblue light. However, many plants have some need for blue light for propergrowth regulation and/or flowering and/or fruiting."

This is why I've added the 660nm LED supplementation. I'm still using 4 Flora Suns in my grow. I will always swear by using those. And for the added IR I'm using a Coral Wave. For everything else I'm using the Middays. I've been tuning my light mixture as my plants respond and tell me what to do!

I've aligned the supplement LEDs now so that they are being evenly mixed with the T5's at the canopy. Here is the overall light color,
it stills seems quite a bit blue heavy. I might have to take out the Actinic Plus and replace with a Flora Sun, or Midday.

kushonly420 said:

I got two 8 bulb fixtures im going to be using for veg. Ive been reading through this thread and there are so many recommended variation of bulbs. Im just wondering what you guys think would be the best 8 bulb setup so far. I already picked up my clones and I am vegging them under old 6500k bulbs, so I kind of need to get my bulbs asap; preferably tomorrow. So if you guys could please help me choose the best configuration for veg. TY FAM!

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It's going to take some playing around a bit on your end to find the spectrum your plants like best. I would start by adding Zoomed Flora Suns to your fixture in a 50/50 ratio and see what happens. If your plants start to stretch throw in a blue bulb like the Giesemann Actinic plus! Adding a couple bloom bulbs that are high in yellow light will increase growth and budding as well as adding 1 or 2 UVL Red Suns. Consider changing it up for each fixture to get an even mixture.

AltarNation said:

Thanks for the recommendations, I will look into those bulbs. It's not just about having the 660nm but also being able to provide a purely red source gives my overall blue:red ratio a big boost that is hard to attain with other fluoro tubes because they tend to contain a lot of blue as well as whatever red they might have. That being said, I must have overlooked that Aquamedic Plant Grow, it does look like it has a nice spike at 660.

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I havent compared their B/G spikes, but their Red spikes are almost the same as the FloraSun... The two PlantGrows I have both have tiny little holes in the phosphor coating= UVc leaks... they just dont seem as well made as the FloraSuns. They're twice the price and seem like lower quality (both have these tiny holes, one area looks like the mercury scraped abit off, like a spotty patch) I'd recommend the FloraSuns over PlantGrow, they both look the same next to each other *see previous post... Final Flowering Panel.


I think the only bulb Ive come across that didnt have at least some output in blue and green was the Red Sun, I use them to increase the overall Red hue. To get enough 660 I think you may need about half of your tubes having it. I have 4 pink hued tubes (w/630-660) for BLUE/GREEN/RED , 2 RedSuns for RED , and 2 CoralWaves for BLUE/IR
6 tubes have BLUE, 4 have GREEN, and ALL have RED 6/4/8 sounds like a decent ratio for flowering (I know I know that doesnt mean thats how much they output etc etc, but to my eyes and after compiling the SPD for all my bulbs, it looks like mostly red, some blue and very little green, so Im happy)

Not saying its perfect (always looking to improve) but Im pretty happy

BlueB said:

Infra-red doesn't even start until 740nm. That's quite far from 660nm actually. 110nm away. if you subtract 110nm from 660nm you get GREEN. 660nm is only 30nm farther up the scale than 630nm which is where red only BEGINS. 660nm is in the beginning of the deep-red zone which goes all the way up to 700nm and then FAR-RED starts at 700nm and goes up to 740nm or INFRARED. IR is all the wavelengths beyond 740 indefinitely.

So to clarify, 730nm is NEAR IR, not 660nm.


Actually this is only partially true. Near Infra-red wavelengths are what trigger stretching. The 660nm range of light will prevent the stretch effect you speak of by actually letting the rest of the plant grow(i.e. buds, leaves), not just the stems. Now do you get it? The 660nm range(also referred to as deep red) is like the carburetor for photosynthesis. Does that make sense?

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Yea my bad, near-IR is out of the human vis range.
Some really great stuff on phytochrome fleshed out in the sci lit, have fun with your grows all.
MPP over and out

kushonly420 said:

I got two 8 bulb fixtures im going to be using for veg. Ive been reading through this thread and there are so many recommended variation of bulbs. Im just wondering what you guys think would be the best 8 bulb setup so far. I already picked up my clones and I am vegging them under old 6500k bulbs, so I kind of need to get my bulbs asap; preferably tomorrow. So if you guys could please help me choose the best configuration for veg. TY FAM!

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Welcome to the community! FloraSuns and WavePoint Blue/ReefWave. $8ea! would work well through Veg, then for flowering... Im sure you'll have an idea by the time you get there

I'm not trying to force this 660nm idea on anyone, sorry if it seems that way! I'm just super excited to see some major results without tacking on the heat and added electricity charge, while keeping in mind that it may not work! The science is there, it's proven for the most part although I think that research needs to be limited to a controlled environment and test subjects(i.e. cannabis). Just because it works well for one person, doesn't mean it will work well for another!

U.C. how long was your flower cycle from start to finish? How does it compare to the rated length of time that the strain/s your grew are supposed to have.

BlueB said:

U.C. how long was your flower cycle from start to finish? How does it compare to the rated length of time that the strain/s your grew are supposed to have.

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My current grow is my first with any quality strains, so I dont have any to compare to. From what Ive seen, a blue heavy veg spectrum causes slower growth, but much tighter internodes and bushier so it may take longer to veg to a suitable size for flowering. But for flowering, no idea. The Mari-guaro was harvested at about 68days, but she could have gone longer after taking the tops/fan leaves for the under flowers to ripen abit. But around 9 weeks for an indica is normal, Sativa's can be tricky and upto 12-13weeks sometimes for a producer.

Its A Girl!!

mexican brick bagseed, 12/12 since 10days old.

Undercover Cop said:

I was reminded by someone recently that the thread was called LED WITHOUT LED's, and the point was to prove a concept, that the spectrums could be created without LED.

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Fair enough... I believe that we have proven that, though. I grew out a perfectly decent crop with considerably LESS red than I have even now without my LED supplements. I've already proven to myself that I can meet the spectrum needs of the plant with T5's... now I'm just being a perfectionist, trying to get as much as I can out of my current setup as I can, given the spatial and other limitations.

I am grateful for this thread and all the information in it...

Thanks guys and girls.

Completely understandable, I'm the same way and don't think I'll ever really be satisfied, but I come here for T5 info and lately its been pages and pages about leds. I love the group, but there are tons of threads that have already explored and perfected it, like we're doing here w t5. This is the only thread really making progress with T5s, and is the source of info for lots of others who are curious about, or are just starting out with T5s. Lets keep it the concentrated source of T5 info we've made it. If someone stumbles into the thread and reads all about LEDs they may assume the "without LEDs" part failed.

Undercover Cop said:

Completely understandable, I'm the same way and don't think I'll ever really be satisfied, but I come here for T5 info and lately its been pages and pages about leds. I love the group, but there are tons of threads that have already explored and perfected it, like we're doing here w t5. This is the only thread really making progress with T5s, and is the source of info for lots of others who are curious about, or are just starting out with T5s. Lets keep it the concentrated source of T5 info we've made it. If someone stumbles into the thread and reads all about LEDs they may assume the "without LEDs" part failed.

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True Enough! But I wouldn't assume anything about what others might assume, that's just not my perrogative. :0) I hope that the T5 contents of this thread continue to flourish... and I hope that anyone reading it can understand that just because I am experimenting with LEDs doesn't mean I'm giving up on completing the spectrum with just T5's, hehe. I probably would have stuck to just the T5's exclusively if I could get more Red Suns. I really want to see what happens if I shift the red balance, though. It's a sort of test, really... to see how important the balance is...

None the less, I definitely understand where you're coming from, I hope that's clear! I understand wanting to keep the thread on focus... and I feel we are still on focus, albeit slightly deviated temporarily for lack of particularly T5-focused content for the moment... (and perhaps not quite conforming to the exact semantic terms of the title in the sense that we're technically playing with LEDs) I am sure that we'll get back on track when there is more to be said about T5's... 280+ pages is a lot of content and I think a lot of us are simply "out of breath" on the T5 subject for the moment. ie, I simply have nothing to say about them at the moment, lol. But I will post my new T5 veg 4-bulb unit as soon as it's purchased and put up.

I love how discussing whether or not a thread has been thrown off topic always thows it way farther off topic. :facepalm: haha. (Especially once I open my long-winded mouth, lol.)

So yeah let's talk about T5's Whether you supplement with LED (or HID) doesn't matter in my book, as long as we're talkin' about T5 usage! But that's just my opinion... I understand if others have more strict definitions of what does or does not belong in a particular thread.

Undercover Cop said:

Completely understandable, I'm the same way and don't think I'll ever really be satisfied, but I come here for T5 info and lately its been pages and pages about leds. I love the group, but there are tons of threads that have already explored and perfected it, like we're doing here w t5. This is the only thread really making progress with T5s, and is the source of info for lots of others who are curious about, or are just starting out with T5s. Lets keep it the concentrated source of T5 info we've made it. If someone stumbles into the thread and reads all about LEDs they may assume the "without LEDs" part failed.

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I have to agree with this, even though I'm the one the most responsible for flooding this place with LED ideas. What U.C. is trying to say is, let's keep this place as an information source for people that do not have access to anything other than T5's, or are only interested in using one source of light. Agreed, so we need to wrap this thread up before it gets way to big. Let's finish this thread by filling it with successful photos of T5 only buds so that if someone comes in here they will have the proof they need without having to search for it.

BlueB said:

I have to agree with this, even though I'm the one the most responsible for flooding this place with LED ideas. What U.C. is trying to say is, let's keep this place as an information source for people that do not have access to anything other than T5's, or are only interested in using one source of light. Agreed, so we need to wrap this thread up before it gets way to big. Let's finish this thread by filling it with successful photos of T5 only buds so that if someone comes in here they will have the proof they need without having to search for it.

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That's a nice idea! Haha.

To be honest, some of us are probably just getting "too comfortable" here. LoL. I know that I post in this thread more than anywhere else, heh. It's like a home to me on this site, so I'm hesitant to agree to pull the plug! But you are right. I should probably start a journal or something, lol.

I liked BlueB's idea so, here's a summary post for my T5-only grow's flowering period...

This is an 4-foot 8-bulb grow with the following: 2 fiji purps, 2 coral waves, 2 red suns, a Super Actinic Blue, and a UVL 75/25.
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DIY "air tube" for T5 ballasts (also sucks some of the heat off the bulbs from the crack between the ballasts and the reflectors) --this worked really well, easily bringing my room temps as a whole down a lot more compared to just pulling the air out of the top of the room.:




































Partial-Harvested my first batch probably too early due to newb error and worrying about a deficiency I never pinned down. Still, I pulled 182g's off of 7 plants under 430watts now, and then later another 3 oz's probably a little late for a total of roughly 10oz (260-something grams) off 7 plants in 430 watts so I felt pretty good about it, considering I botched it with my newb errors on timing the harvests and all my other errors...

Unfortunately I did not take as many well-lit harvest pics as I would have liked...













a Late Harvesting of the last of each plant..




Yielded another 3 oz's of small but fairly dense buds, which are curing in these jars now... might take some out later and take some more pics:





That's a rap on this... I learned my lessons in harvest timing and in good photo lighting. :0)

PetFlora said:

Yep. I think it has served its' purpose, but I would miss you guys.

As I see it, at this point, we somehow need to band together to petition a mfg to produce a bulb that is concentrated in 630-660- possibly even 700. May need to create an escrow account to show money is there. I would upfront $$$ to buy 4-8.

Could the reason be it is too expensive to produce?

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Good question and an interesting idea... I would probably throw in for some if the price was right.