LED Without LEDs -My First T5 Grow

While I will say that it is a little strange that pr0f hasn't shown or even gone into much detail at all about a harvest and keeps stating it's not about yield, just a test, etc. He never stated that you or anyone else should invest large amounts of money into testing/experimenting unless you have the time and money to spend on it. I personally went with the t5 and a mixture of bulbs in this thread due to the time i found the thread was the time I was starting some new plants so it was perfect for vegging my plants and didn't need to add any inline fans or duct work for cooling the lights(i knew i'd be moving in a couple/few months and didn't want to invest money into a room only to tear it down in a couple months). This was a major factor in my choice to try it out. I did like the results in the tight spacing of the nodes. I also used the 8 lamp fixture in conjunction with a 400 hps during flower with the t5 as side/angled lighting. While I am no scientist or botanist I do have common sense and have had many successful outdoor vegetable gardens and a handful of friends who have been growing with hps/mh for years and did comment that they were VERY suprised/impressed of the quality of the plant before I even added the 400hps. So there is something to the bulbs, but until we can get the intensity of the HID lights i think it won't make a huge difference in smaller plants, but larger/bushier plants would probably suffer a bit from the lack of intensity unless you had way, WAY more money invested in several, 5+, t5 fixtures and bulbs arranged in a pentagon type shape around the plant and above or something like that.

pr0f i do appreciate this thread and have had good results so far, i've actually removed the 400 hps because i didn't notice much of a difference between having it on and having it off. Like i said before i mainly added the 400 hps during flower to make sure it worked reliable for a month. I do still plan on getting a 600 or 1000 watt hps for flowering to compare the results to what i got with the t5 this time, and just because my gut feeling is that a combination of two, t5 and hps, will give ME what I am looking for.

bottom line, don't blame OP for telling you to try this or "help" him test it out. He was just trying to show that there are other options that could be as viable if not more viable than the current way of doing things. If something is working for you and has been for a while, there aren't too many people who will dump money/time/effort into trying to find a new/better way of accomplishing the same goal. I think this is more of the track that this thread was started in, a lets see what happens when we try this, because going by the papers/numbers this looks like it could potentially save us a bit of money on cooling lights, less amps on the fixtures, etc. just my 35 cents.

Indeed, for a semi-noob like me who has to use either t5 or CFLs (I live in New Mexico, it can easily go well over 100 every day for months at a time in summer, no way in hell can I afford to cool HID with what I have to invest in my personal medical grow.) Being able to get a bigger healthier crop out of my 1-2 plants with what $ I will be able to work with excites me and I'm grateful people are doing these tests to educate the poor-asses of the world like me. I'm sorry you feel so gypped, I'd be interested in buying your gently used bulbs if you're getting rid of them and it would be cost effective to ship.

Big thanks to everyone who's been posting their tests of various bulbs, especially the ones/brands to avoid. Any thoughts on a 4 or 6 bulb t5, what dimension lengthwise I'd be looking at to get a fairly square light footprint for a tent scrog? Talking to my dispensary turns out the LSD is much slower flowering and benefits from a longer veg than the Lemon Skunk (they offer both as clones) so I'll probably be a one-plant fussypants babied gardener. Plan is to flip the skunk fairly quickly, maybe just fim or top it a couple of times before finishing veg and going to flower. Then once that's cut start my LSD and give her the time she needs in veg fimming all the way to a box-encompassing scrog (insert evil laugh here) to get her hopefully producing a bit more. Organic soil grow, toying with the idea of trying a small yeast farm for CO2 supplementation. Need to look more into it. Legal medical grow so stealth isn't a huge issue, but with kids about in the neighborhood discretion still is.

So yeah, thanks guys!

okthanks2 said:

Heh, no comment eh? You like to go around telling people they are wrong and then not correcting yourself? Seems to me everyone is doing the actual testing of these bulbs for you. I've spent over $800 on T5 bulbs and have found the only real results to be with the ProColors or PINK plant bulbs. If you have results to show, why don't you show them? I haven't seen any photos from you and yet you are the one that started this thread. Is this just some idea that you had that you wanted others to test for you? I'm not getting it so far. People, stick with HPS and MH. Plants don't like low intensity lights, save your money!

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I have to say, I see where you're coming from here. There does seem to be a disconnect between Pr0f's theoretical expertise and actual accomplishments. Personally, what bothers me is the apparent (to me) mixing of good information and bad information along with a healthy dose of self-righteousness.

According to Pr0f, his efforts were to test the viability of the concept, not to compete with other forms of lighting technology (or even against other T5 setups including bulbs he does not have, presumably). So there are no experiential grounds there for some of the self-assured proclamations of bulb value that we're hearing repeatedly (and of course there's the die-hard Fiji promotion that makes everyone who comes to this thread believe they must have these $30 bulbs).

Of course, when it comes down to it we're all responsible for our own choices and Pr0f isn't making anyone do anything that they don't want to. He wasn't the first person to come up with this concept, but it looks like he was the first to do so on RIU and whether or not it is optimum as the only light to be used in flower, choosing PAR-focused T5s definitely makes sense to do if you're using T5s.

Speaking for myself, I'm very happy with them as side-lighting at this point, both with HPS and LED. I am interested in doing an all-T5 grow, but would like to see more people have success with it before I take the plunge.

I do not thank Pr0f for some of the (IMO) misinformation that he spreads, but I do thank him for starting this thread and sharing a very worthwhile concept with us. Does he over-sell it? Possibly. But we don't have to buy.

I do understand where your frustration comes from.

This is starting to get weird. First of all I never "blamed" anyone for purchasing T5 bulbs. I did however state that the PINK T5 bulbs, i.e. ProColor, FloraSun, Plant Grow, work for REAL! I just wouldn't veg under them due to the stretch. So far, all the blue bulbs I have tried, i.e. Fiji Purple, Blue Plus, Actinic, have only cause growth to get stunted. What I would like to see are some actual results (photos) of healthy plants. So far I have only seen one post with nice growth (undercurrent). I have done the testing already and my results STILL stand. My answer STILL stands: do not waste your money on these expenisve ass aquarium bulbs except for the pink ones. If you have a temp problem get an aquarium chiller or a/c. It is ALOT cheaper than buying T5 bulbs that may or may not even work at $25 a piece. Reality check!

Are you saying the blue bulbs stunted your plants growth in veg, flower, or both? Did the pink ones stretch your plants in veg in the presence of blue bulbs?

okthanks2,

okthanks2 said:

Heh, no comment eh? You like to go around telling people they are wrong and then not correcting yourself? Seems to me everyone is doing the actual testing of these bulbs for you. I've spent over $800 on T5 bulbs and have found the only real results to be with the ProColors or PINK plant bulbs. If you have results to show, why don't you show them? I haven't seen any photos from you and yet you are the one that started this thread. Is this just some idea that you had that you wanted others to test for you? I'm not getting it so far. People, stick with HPS and MH. Plants don't like low intensity lights, save your money!

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This the pr0fesseur's thread and he has earned his keep.

We are participating because we believe in this idea and are willing to take risks for experimentation's sake. If that does not describe you; sell your PAR equipment, get that HID and a bigger fan.

Otherwise, post a pic and ask a few questions. There are plenty of experienced individuals here who would be more than happy to help diagnose any issue you may be having.

I already did post a photo of the gnarly twisted stunted growth I got under the blue lights. Since then, I switched back to pink and 6500k and everything is fine. There is PLENTY of blue light already in regular 6500k bulbs because it is the nature of flourescent lighting to have useful blue light in them. The intense blue light that comes from the "blue only" bulbs is problematic. Balance of wavelengths is important. I still laugh when someone says sunlight has a bunch of wasted wavelengths yet still proves to be the best light for growth. And Yes, to answer your question, the blue T5s have been stunting in flower and veg. I have tried about 100 different light combos and am not finished testing yet. So far, however, the tests I've done indicate what I have stated already about 4 times. I'm trying to present helpful info here through testing myself. Who knows, maybe the strain that is being tested reacts to blue light differently than yours? That will never be known. All I can do is present info I have gathered from my own experience.

I firmly beleive that these aquarium bulbs should be used as supplement to 6500k lights or HID. I think they would prove as a great addition much like LED. Bring on the photos of good, healthy vigorous growth people!

Just be positive here, we PAR T5-ers are a small community and would benefit from sticking together.

Also, do you have a link to your grow journal? It would be great to follow along, regardless of the outcome.

okthanks2 said:

I already did post a photo of the gnarly twisted stunted growth I got under the blue lights. Since then, I switched back to pink and 6500k and everything is fine. There is PLENTY of blue light already in regular 6500k bulbs because it is the nature of flourescent lighting to have useful blue light in them. The intense blue light that comes from the "blue only" bulbs is problematic. Balance of wavelengths is important. I still laugh when someone says sunlight has a bunch of wasted wavelengths yet still proves to be the best light for growth. And Yes, to answer your question, the blue T5s have been stunting in flower and veg. I have tried about 100 different light combos and am not finished testing yet. So far, however, the tests I've done indicate what I have stated already about 4 times. I'm trying to present helpful info here through testing myself. Who knows, maybe the strain that is being tested reacts to blue light differently than yours? That will never be known. All I can do is present info I have gathered from my own experience.

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From what ive seen in my garden. The fijis have produced the best results. The side of the light with more fijis, the buds swell up more than the side with more redsuns. So I swapped one redsun for a fiji. The results are definitely comparable to hid size. Ive been hunting like crazy to find a another bulb like the fiji and cheaper but not have been successful.

For me the best combo for flower is fiji / redsun / coral wave / fiji / fiji / coral wave / redsun / fiji.

For veg I set aside the bulbs I got and saving for next flower t5. Instead got all coralifes. 3 actinics and 3 6700k having them placed every other slot in a 6 bulb.

Have you run the pro colors by themselves? When I've seen them, they appear very red.Thats why I want to use them. When next to a mostly blue bulb, they appear pink. Just like the fiji looks very purple but when placed next to a red bulb it appears blue. For reef tanks, people want mostly blue and in every reef forum no one likes the pro color because its too red. Run every bulb by itself first.

Also if pink bulbs are producing more stretching in veg then obviously there is more blue than red in that bulb and would only be good to use one or two in flower. Ive seen first hand with cfls and t5 and hid how much more blue causes more stretching during veg. As soon as I added red the stretching stopped. It went from 6 to 8 inches between nodes to half an inch or an inch between nodes.

So I think you might have your spectrums backwards for your experiment. All those bulbs you like have peaks in the right places but very low peaks. The ones I use dont.


Ive noticed with prof, he has several times said some thing wrong or backwards and I have even called him on it. Sometimes he says you're right my bad bro. Or he just likes your post and doesn't say anything. if anyone makes a post that is obviously asinine to everyone. he does not say anything unless it involves explaining it in a mathematical way. He is not god and you treat him as if he is infallable. Yes he can come off more arrogant at times. Doesn't everyone.

Also dont you use 2ft t5? You cant compare that to a 4ft. The 2ft puts out much less light than a 4ft.



Happy growing

hyroot - are the par t5s you use ho or vho

i have been thinking about useing the fiji and the redsun but im only going to have 4 bulbs in my t5 ballest so what do you think would be a good combo for veg and flower

Im using ho, we all are. Not all these bulbs come in vho, plus vho burns rheough bulbs twice as fast.

Day 26 Time for a little update.
They are all coming along nicely but the HPS plants are much larger. The T5s are a little more smelly though, but about 50% the size. Here are some pics for size comparison.

I am thinking about putting a Flora Sun or two to get into the 660nm range and add some green. I would pull the 454 at that point and maybe a red sun. Any thoughts?

Strain: Lemon Kush
Lights: 600w air cooled HPS eye Hortalux with a digital ballast.
T5 Bad Boy 8 bulb with 4 Red Suns, 3 Fijis, 1 454
Temps with the lights ON 75-77 degrees OFF around 62-65
RH 23-30

Calrt said:

Day 26 Time for a little update.
They are all coming along nicely but the HPS plants are not much larger. The T5s are a little more smelly though, but about 50% the size. Here are some pics for size comparison.

I am thinking about putting a Flora Sun or two to get into the 660nm range and add some green. I would pull the 454 at that point and maybe a red sun. Any thoughts?

Strain: Lemon Kush
Lights: 600w air cooled HPS eye Hortalux with a digital ballast.
T5 Bad Boy 8 bulb with 4 Red Suns, 3 Fijis, 1 454
Temps with the lights ON 75-77 degrees OFF around 62-65
RH 23-30

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Looks good are you using both lights together or doing a comparison between the two?

hyroot said:

Looks good are you using both lights together or doing a comparison between the two?

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Side by side comparison. 600w air cooled HPS eye Hortalux with a digital ballast in one tent and T5 Bad Boy 8 bulb with 4 Red Suns, 3 Fijis, 1 454 in the other. Same nutes, close to the same temps as I can. The HPS is running away with yield at this point. This is my first grow as well....

Calrt, lookin real nice! What did you veg under? What bulb colors etc.?

Hyroot, you have it backwards. BLUE is for veg, red for flower. I've never heard of blue light causing plants to stretch. Blue light is supposed to keep the internodes closer together and make growth more compact.

And no, I am not giving up yet on the T5 "christmas light" growing yet, after all I did spend $800 on the bulbs. I'm only advising people not to invest in them quite yet until we get some rock solid results from more than 1 person.

I am starting another test: 2 fiji, 2 ati blue, 2 ati pink(procolor), 2 red sun. This will be for veg. I have a plant under those bulbs and one under 6, 6500k spectralux and 2 ati pink(procolor). This should be an ultimate deciding factor if the other pretty colors are advantagous or just pretty colors and nothing more. I will report back in 10 day time.

I would like to add, even though my plants haven't taken off under the purple/blue lights, they are staying quite a bit more green than my plants under the HPS light. Its making me think that these expensive T5 aquarium lights are like vitamins to plants. They are keeping things green but not providing the energy or main food source. Just food for thought. I think 6500k lights have been preferred for so long by growers because of the balance of red and blue in them. Anything higher and plants get stunted, anything lower and they start to stretch. More food for thought. The best growth I have ever seen has been under 6.4k sunpulse bulbs. Keep in mind, I am only talking about veg here. Do not think for one second I am referring to flower. I pointed out about 30 pages back that I joined this thread to find the perfect veg combination light. So far it has been the 6500k/pink T5 mixture or the sunpulse 6.4k. The only downfall with the pink is the stretch. I hope to solve the problem by adding a couple Fiji to the white/pink t5 mix.

okthanks2 said:

Calrt, lookin real nice! What did you veg under? What bulb colors etc.?

Hyroot, you have it backwards. BLUE is for veg, red for flower. I've never heard of blue light causing plants to stretch. Blue light is supposed to keep the internodes closer together and make growth more compact.

And no, I am not giving up yet on the T5 "christmas light" growing yet, after all I did spend $800 on the bulbs. I'm only advising people not to invest in them quite yet until we get some rock solid results from more than 1 person.

I am starting another test: 2 fiji, 2 ati blue, 2 ati pink(procolor), 2 red sun. This will be for veg. I have a plant under those bulbs and one under 6, 6500k spectralux and 2 ati pink(procolor). This should be an ultimate deciding factor if the other pretty colors are advantagous or just pretty colors and nothing more. I will report back in 10 day time.

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I didnt say I swapped blue for red. I added red to the mix. You want more blue than red in veg but you want some red to keep from stretching. In flower you want some blue to keep it from stretching. You want both spectrum in both veg and flower. 60/40 or 70/30. Try running bulbs that are competely blue with no red and see what happens. Mh and hps bothe have blue and red in them.

Like I said too fijis are my friend. anyway those do seem to be the best bulb for flower anyway so
far. For veg im having good reslults with the coralife actinics and 6700k

Hyroot, I never said that YOU said you swapped blue for red. I never even used those words so I don't know where you are getting that from in my statement. But I also have never heard that adding red would prevent stretching, I beleive you have that backwards. Anyway, this is really getting hard to communicate when people keep adding things or ideas to my statements that I never said. Please read and re-read if it doesn't make sense. I would still like some feedback as far as veg goes i.e. light configuration that has worked for anyone imparticular. It seems like people are responding to only one sentence in my post rather than the whole post. I know I've clearly presented more than one idea at a time. Please read the entire post so ideas don't have to be repeated over and over anymore.

okthanks2 said:

Calrt, lookin real nice! What did you veg under? What bulb colors etc.?

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Vegged under 600w MH, they were "extras" from a friend

I'm ready to join this grand experiment!
Just got my 4' 6 bulb badboy and 8 bulbs from AS

I Currently have the following bulbs:
- 2x Fuji Purple
- UVL Super Actinic w/internal reflector
- ATI T5 12000K Aquablue Special
- UVL 75.25 w/internal reflector
- 3xUVL Red Sun

(I ordered the UVL 454 w/ internal reflector but alas, they are on back order)

I was planning on vegging (as per pr0f's suggestion) with:
- 2x Fuji Purple
- UVL Super Actinic w/internal reflector
- ATI T5 12000K Aquablue Special
- UVL 75.25 w/internal reflector
-UVL 454

BUT I DONT HAVE THE 454 yet.
What would you guys recommend for my vegging configuration in light of this fact?