LED Without LEDs -My First T5 Grow
- Thread starter pr0fesseur
- Start date
okthanks2
Active Member
Also, I want to add some interesting info I got from doing some research that may help ease some of your minds on this whole RED 660nm issue and not being able to get the "procolors" anymore:
"You can use 630nm rather than 660nm and it works no problem. Actually it works better because currently 630nm are available on more efficient chips than the 660s. Once we get our hands on the new high efficiency 660s we will experiment to find the most efficient ratio of 630s:660s.
As far as blue/red ratio, it very much affects stretch. So we use more blue during veg and also the first few weeks of flowering if you are trying to control a sativa dom. Red photons are more efficient at driving photosynthesis and they require significantly less power from the emitters per photon so it is beneficial to use as much red as you can get away with while still controlling stretch.
White light can help some strains ripen on time. White LEDs also have a convenient blue peak at 440-450nm. As an earlier poster mentioned, plants use photons from all the visible wavelengths for photosynthesis, including green. I expect that the small amount of these wavelengths contributed by the white LED is used very efficiently.
Plants may go through some period of adjustment when they are suddenly presented with a light of very different wavelengths. Therefore it may be useful to provide some white even during vegging. Since the white LED provides quite a nice peak of blue, it seems possible that a simple combination of white and red could be very effective. Another bonus would be a more even spread of wavelengths reaching each leaf."
SupraSPL
This is my reasoning behind using the 6500K T5 "white" bulbs mixed with procolors OR florasuns OR floramax OR plantgrow OR redsun. There is already MORE than enough BLUE in the 6500k bulbs. This is the point I've been trying to get at for awhile now. Plants use RED light waaayyyy more than blue. Blue light keeps plants from stretching more. Therefore, I have come up with a mixture of T5 lighting that should work appropriately for veggin. Pink(procolor, floramax, florasun, plantgrow etc.) x 4, 6500K x 4. THIS MIXTURE PRODUCED UNBELIEVABLE RESULTS AS I HAVE POSTED EARLIER. The only problem is the stretch that occured. So the mixture needs a bit more blue. Therefore, swapping out one of the 6500K bulbs for a blue plus(or equilvalent) should produce better results. Testing now, will post results in 10 days, as stated earlier. As far as flowering goes, I believe it would be safe to assume that all a person would need to get HUGE results would be half 6500K and half PINK(procolor, florasun, floramax, plant grow etc.) And, I wouldn't worry that much about whether the NM is 630nm, 647nm, 652nm or 660nm. I highly doubt plants are sitting there saying "gee where is my 660nm light? All I am receiving is 659nm and I can't grow." After all plants are NOT computers requiring an exact wavelength. If you actually think about it, plants don't need a specific wavelength at all, they need the appropriate balance for the desired outcome. Remember, numbers, math, computers, are all inventions of man, plants learned how to exist looooooong before humans came up with the idea of putting a label to the "type" of light plants require.
"You can use 630nm rather than 660nm and it works no problem. Actually it works better because currently 630nm are available on more efficient chips than the 660s. Once we get our hands on the new high efficiency 660s we will experiment to find the most efficient ratio of 630s:660s.
As far as blue/red ratio, it very much affects stretch. So we use more blue during veg and also the first few weeks of flowering if you are trying to control a sativa dom. Red photons are more efficient at driving photosynthesis and they require significantly less power from the emitters per photon so it is beneficial to use as much red as you can get away with while still controlling stretch.
White light can help some strains ripen on time. White LEDs also have a convenient blue peak at 440-450nm. As an earlier poster mentioned, plants use photons from all the visible wavelengths for photosynthesis, including green. I expect that the small amount of these wavelengths contributed by the white LED is used very efficiently.
Plants may go through some period of adjustment when they are suddenly presented with a light of very different wavelengths. Therefore it may be useful to provide some white even during vegging. Since the white LED provides quite a nice peak of blue, it seems possible that a simple combination of white and red could be very effective. Another bonus would be a more even spread of wavelengths reaching each leaf."
SupraSPL
This is my reasoning behind using the 6500K T5 "white" bulbs mixed with procolors OR florasuns OR floramax OR plantgrow OR redsun. There is already MORE than enough BLUE in the 6500k bulbs. This is the point I've been trying to get at for awhile now. Plants use RED light waaayyyy more than blue. Blue light keeps plants from stretching more. Therefore, I have come up with a mixture of T5 lighting that should work appropriately for veggin. Pink(procolor, floramax, florasun, plantgrow etc.) x 4, 6500K x 4. THIS MIXTURE PRODUCED UNBELIEVABLE RESULTS AS I HAVE POSTED EARLIER. The only problem is the stretch that occured. So the mixture needs a bit more blue. Therefore, swapping out one of the 6500K bulbs for a blue plus(or equilvalent) should produce better results. Testing now, will post results in 10 days, as stated earlier. As far as flowering goes, I believe it would be safe to assume that all a person would need to get HUGE results would be half 6500K and half PINK(procolor, florasun, floramax, plant grow etc.) And, I wouldn't worry that much about whether the NM is 630nm, 647nm, 652nm or 660nm. I highly doubt plants are sitting there saying "gee where is my 660nm light? All I am receiving is 659nm and I can't grow." After all plants are NOT computers requiring an exact wavelength. If you actually think about it, plants don't need a specific wavelength at all, they need the appropriate balance for the desired outcome. Remember, numbers, math, computers, are all inventions of man, plants learned how to exist looooooong before humans came up with the idea of putting a label to the "type" of light plants require.
I'll just leave this here.
okthanks2
Active Member
Really? Are you sure? The only difference between a 2' T5 bulb and a 4' T5 bulb is the area they will cover. As far as light intensity and wavelength, they are identical. Seems like you would know this best out of anyone. As far as combination goes, I've stated my bulb configuration every time, so if you've ACTUALLY BEEN READING my posts, you would have known by now.
okthanks2
Active Member
Haha, yeah.
okthanks2
Active Member
>Why is the 660nm wavelength so important for flowering plants?
Lab tests have shown that chlorophyll absorption peaks at deep red 660nm, so many grow lights use a lot of this wavelength. Plants need the whole red spectrum, but too much deep red causes the plants to stretch.
Lab tests have shown that chlorophyll absorption peaks at deep red 660nm, so many grow lights use a lot of this wavelength. Plants need the whole red spectrum, but too much deep red causes the plants to stretch.
okthanks2
Active Member
I really don't think the KZ Fiji Purple bulbs are necessary. I am getting excellent results now with cheapo 6500K bulbs mixed with, Pink Procolor(floramax, florasun etc.) 50% 6500K and 50% PINK, and ONLY 1 ATI blue bulb for vegging. I would switch the ATI blue bulb out for another pink bulb for flowering as the 6500K bulbs have enough blue in them already. I don't see why everyone is acting like the KZ bulb is so amazing. The company isn't willing to present the spectral analysis, AND they are extremely expensive. I've had very similar results using the red sun bulbs in place of ANY of the red/pink colored bulbs. I would put the redsun bulbs in the same category as the procolor, floramax, florasun, plant grow, aqua-glo, etc. etc. I have been using verilux flouros which are also pink in color for the last 10 years for vegging. I haven't seen any T5 verilux's in the USA yet but the T12's have been doing fine for vegging with quality. BTW the procolors and all other pink bulbs have peak wavelengths in the blue region already, so NOT MUCH more blue is necessary.
overTHEman
Active Member
You've gotten everyone's attention plenty of times on this thread. If you don't like the way people are responding to your posts, change the content of what you write or perhaps use different words. We all know that you don't like the Fiji and your favorite is the 6,500k.
I used the 6,500k bulbs during veg and was pleased with the growth I saw. After reading this thread I realized I did not fully understand the implications of "6,500k" or "2,900k", so I looked into the way light is measured. A month later, I purchased the recommended PAR bulbs and witnessed much improvement in my plant's growth. Since then, I have shown this community, including you, my results. Many others have done the same.
So far, telling us hasn't worked. If you like the 6,500k - explain your thesis and plan. Carry out that plan and show us what happens. If no one believes you, show us again.
It took the pr0fesseur six months to show us twice.
Undercover Cop
Active Member
yet you still continue to argue taking up another page trying to prove points that we're already familiar with, we all know the 6500 bulbs have blue and red in them, they use triband phosphors, we know you need a balanced distribution which is why we have to explain to noobs not to use ALL aquarium bulbs and that it is all about providing a balanced spread for the plants. You like the pink bulbs, we all hear you and some undoubetly will go out and get some pink bulbs and will grow amazing plants with them (Ive been looking at a few myself) Thank you for your contribution... now please chill with it. Present your findings from switching and be happy with the growth you're getting. You said you were leaving, Im not holding you to that but if you do stick around, please chill with the rhetoric, you aint running for office here.Seems to me like all you want to do is argue your "point," no matter what it may be... So I leave you with "your" thread! Great, you've earned it, or something? Anyway, have fun with your little fake idea, you're sure got everyone believing that you know your stuff! HA HA
Undercover Cop
Active Member
yet you still continue to argue taking up another page trying to prove points that we're already familiar with, we all know the 6500 bulbs have blue and red in them, they use triband phosphors, we know you need a balanced distribution which is why we have to explain to noobs not to use ALL aquarium bulbs and that it is all about providing a balanced spread for the plants. You like the pink bulbs, we all hear you and some undoubetly will go out and get some pink bulbs and will grow amazing plants with them (Ive been looking at a few myself) Thank you for your contribution... now please chill with it. Present your findings from switching and be happy with the growth you're getting. You said you were leaving, Im not holding you to that but if you do stick around, please chill with the rhetoric, you aint running for office here.Seems to me like all you want to do is argue your "point," no matter what it may be... So I leave you with "your" thread! Great, you've earned it, or something? Anyway, have fun with your little fake idea, you're sure got everyone believing that you know your stuff! HA HA
*** note okthanks2 deleted about 8 rather negative posts between these two, which is why I repeated my post.
organicbynature
Active Member
Peace?
I think if there is value to be taken out of this argument it is in the comparison between a set of bulbs focused around 6500ks and "pink" bulbs vs a more traditional (for this thread) mix of bulbs. Personally, I'd be interested to see that comparison if anyone is moved to do it and post pictures.
Beyond that, it's kind of a bummer when this thread gets all heated. That's not what we're here for. I'm sorry if I've upset anyone at some point in this thread and my vote is we all chill out and get back to enjoying life and this excellent plant and the sharing and experimentation that is this thread at its best.
And if that doesn't work for you, try some of this skunk kush because it totally worked for me.
I think if there is value to be taken out of this argument it is in the comparison between a set of bulbs focused around 6500ks and "pink" bulbs vs a more traditional (for this thread) mix of bulbs. Personally, I'd be interested to see that comparison if anyone is moved to do it and post pictures.
Beyond that, it's kind of a bummer when this thread gets all heated. That's not what we're here for. I'm sorry if I've upset anyone at some point in this thread and my vote is we all chill out and get back to enjoying life and this excellent plant and the sharing and experimentation that is this thread at its best.
And if that doesn't work for you, try some of this skunk kush because it totally worked for me.
Redoctober
Well-Known Member
Well I put a couple of vegging plants under 4 lamps (Flora Sun--Coral Sun--Flora Sun--UVL Super Actinic) about a week ago, and growth has pretty much stalled out.
Any ideas as to why?
Too much Blue?
What should I switch to to get that explosive veg growth with super tight nodes that I've seen so many pics of?
hyroot, I'm thinking of duplicating your setup.
Any ideas as to why?
Too much Blue?
What should I switch to to get that explosive veg growth with super tight nodes that I've seen so many pics of?
hyroot, I'm thinking of duplicating your setup.
hyroot
Well-Known Member
No amount of any spectrum should cause them to stall. You might have nute lock....
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Okthanks. You constantly put everyone down and say you are not going to argue. You make all sorts of implications then deny ever saying anything. You obviously havent run all the light you say. Because some of what you say is ass backwards. You keep talking about this one pic that is not on this thread. you say you have bad results here in there and state why and then you say you never said you had bad results. You are a walking contradiction. Make up your damn mind. You definitely have a kanye complex and yet have not produced any proof of your so called findings. Scientist have to show documented proof before they can publish findings. If not its just theory. Im sure your going to attack me after this since you cant seem to be civil at all. Ever admit when your wrong. You keep. Calling everone a teenager. I bet you just turned 20. Tht still makes you a youngin. Reading all your posts is like watching a soap opera. Geez. Get over yourself and your ego.
again ive posted good results despite other setbacks. Ive posted even better results. Try using the original bulb selection thats recommended. I did and it worked.great. Also there is definitely a difference between 2 ft and 4 ft. For.one 4ft has 2.5 times more lumens. 2 inches at each end of the bulb does not put out light. So you lose 4 inches on each bulb. Thats a big difference.
Everything prof said about you. Did you forget that you attacked him and this concept.way before all of this. Yesterday you made a post talking so much shit and how bad your results were..... then deny ever having bad results and still say these bulbs dont work. That does not make any sense. Maybe its just you....
You praise the 6500k.so much that its implied thats it your favorite. Thatw why everyone said that. It hard keeping track of bullshit.....
UnderCurrentDWC
Active Member
okthanks2
Active Member
RedOctober, the reason growth has stopped is because these bulbs do not work for some strains. Seems as though some strains prefer the RED over any blue at all. Try the 2 Flora Suns and 2 6500K for a week and see what happens, I'm sure you will be shitless with surprise.
red causes stretching, blue causes tight internodes
okthanks2
Active Member
These bulbs suck, had 2 burn out already after 1 week
overTHEman
Active Member
Yeah man, stoke that fire.
okthanks2
Active Member
For those of you that are doing grow comparisons with these T5 bulbs right next to a HPS light, that isn't going to show how the T5's are stand alone vs HPS. If you actually want to do a valid comparison, you have to keep the T5 lights far away from any other light source. And, no I'm not 20, I actually just turned 110. I'm going to post this again, since it seems you have failed once again to understand. Not all plants respond to light in the same way. Even different strains of the same type of plant DO NOT always respond the same way. When I first started out with all 6500K bulbs, nothing grew at all. When switched to colored T5's only, nothing grew. When I switched to 50% 6500K and 50% Flora Suns, explosive growth followed. Soil, nutes, water, ph, time started were all the same for each trial. Try that and see what happens. The Flora Suns are a 5000K bulb which means they have more red in them. They still have the same amout of blue as regular 6500K bulbs do however. The only difference between 6500K bulbs and the FloraSuns, ProColors, FloraMax, Plant Grow bulbs is that the 6500K bulbs do not have the deep red added. The wavepoint bulbs are very similar in that they are all 6500K bulbs with either more red or more blue phosphors added to them. Not all 6500K bulbs are created equally. The best ones I've found are the Zoo Med Ultra Suns. They are very bright and have a real nice clear appearance. Another good bulb combo I've tried is 50% Zoo med Ocean Sun and 50% Flora Sun. It won't grow plants fast, but it does work. Add a couple 6500K bulbs to that mix and the plants will grow faster. The whole point in adding the 6500K bulbs is to add more blue without screwing up the balance of wavelength and to prevent stretch. If you only use the Flora Suns, the plants will stretch like crazy. Also, the colored bulbs do not put out many lumens, so by adding 6500K bulbs you will add about 4x the lumens and provide more energy for the plants to grow. Proper wavelengths + lumens = quality grow. If you want to see my journals that I've done over the last 4 years, you can find them on gardenscure.com, but it won't be of much interest to most of you on this thread because they are mostly HID grows not with aquarium bulb, I do have one where I used HID MH with LED supplement in the 660nm + 420nm and it is some amazing amazing shit people. Just search HID MH with LED supplemeeei zoif djlfle
organicbynature
Active Member
I wonder if any of the divergent results that are being reported have to do with light height.
The type of combination that okthanks 2 is talking about has bulbs with more complete spectrums, as opposed to the aquarium mixes that have some narrow spectrum bulbs. I believe we've concluded that with the aquarium bulbs its better to keep the lights a bit higher than usual to allow the spectrums to blend. Putting narrow-spectrum bulbs close to the canopy should result in poor growth. Similar issues have come up in the LED community in terms of distance to canopy and spectrum mixing. Putting your LEDs too close doesn't work well.
How high off the canopy have you been putting your lights okthanks2 and RedOctober?
Anybody thinks this might be a factor in what we're hearing lately?
The type of combination that okthanks 2 is talking about has bulbs with more complete spectrums, as opposed to the aquarium mixes that have some narrow spectrum bulbs. I believe we've concluded that with the aquarium bulbs its better to keep the lights a bit higher than usual to allow the spectrums to blend. Putting narrow-spectrum bulbs close to the canopy should result in poor growth. Similar issues have come up in the LED community in terms of distance to canopy and spectrum mixing. Putting your LEDs too close doesn't work well.
How high off the canopy have you been putting your lights okthanks2 and RedOctober?
Anybody thinks this might be a factor in what we're hearing lately?