Lockdowns didn't work.

hanimmal

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
abandonconflict said:
I did define it. There was no lockdown anywhere in which there is strong evidence that lockdowns had an impact on all cause mortality. If a state had a two week stay at home order in some part of 2020, you can not prove that this had an impact on the overall number of deaths over the entire course of the pandemic. Before you cry foul at this criteria, think about it for a moment. Did it save a life or not?

It's easy to say fewer deaths occured specifically to covid within a few weeks of such an order but you can not prove that they had an impact on the overall mortality. Such proof does not exist. However the reality of it is even harder to prove.

The lockdowns were meant to flatten to curve in order to prevent hospital capacity being exceeded. That was what was argued all along by local governments. They absolutely did not work as intended. But also, they didn't work at all.
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I don't know man, Australia did a pretty good job of keeping it contained in 2020.

And I disagree strongly that having a hundred people in a confined restaurant coughing all over one another did not help slow the strain on our hospitals. Which were struggling in 2020 and are still recovering. And if those hospitals buckled, I would argue that the death rate would have increased, but sure I can't prove it, so death cult trolls will pretend like they are right, so whats the point.

America never went on a lockdown though, and the virus mutated, and enough idiots got convinced by death cult trolls to be unsafe that it is pretty irrelevant discussion anymore.

Anyways, Welcome back.
 
cannabineer

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
abandonconflict said:
You have every right in the world to wear a mask. Businesses have the right to insist that patrons wear masks. Government offices have the right to enact policies as to the wearing of masks on their premises. I will likey continue wearing a mask for the foreseeabe future because I like it. I don't care if others wear a mask. If I don't like someone breathing near me, I get away from their throat, it's my prerogative.

As to the rest of your argument, I know that if you narrow the time frame, you could make it look like lockdowns had an impact but on the whole of the pandemic, they utterly failed to prevent the overloading of hospital capacity and it becomes very difficult to argue that any impact was made at all. It simply groups numbers. This has been rehashed ad nauseaum in many discussions including overall population all-cause mortality rates. The only case that can be seriousy made is in regard to the comorbid and the elderly.

You can't blame beachgoers for your grandmother's death.
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no link, no love.
 
abandonconflict

abandonconflict

Well-Known Member
hanimmal said:
I don't know man, Australia did a pretty good job of keeping it contained in 2020.
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Austrailia is able to control movement in and out of the country as a whole due to it being an Island continent and it is also very sparesly populated. That explains Australia's performance well enough. In any case, Austrailia's control over the pandemic directly correlated to its supply of mrna vaccines.

Here's a shocker, every country's control over the pandemic at all times, has directly correlated to supply of mrna vaccines.
hanimmal said:
help slow the strain on our hospitals.
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ok, prove that.
 
abandonconflict

abandonconflict

Well-Known Member
rkymtnman said:
prove it. show where sweden recorded that way and norway, denmark did not. until then, bullshit.
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You prove that Sweden suffered ten times more deaths to covid than all other Scandinavian countries combined. That was your claim. That is exactly what you said.

It is absolutely a clearly established fact that Sweden approached the pandemic differently, I posit that they also reported differently. I would be interested to see the average age of those who died of covid by country as well.
 
hanimmal

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
abandonconflict said:
Austrailia is able to control movement in and out of the country as a whole due to it being an Island continent and it is also very sparesly populated. That explains Australia's performance well enough. In any case, Austrailia's control over the pandemic directly correlated to its supply of mrna vaccines.

Here's a shocker, every country's control over the pandemic at all times, has directly correlated to supply of mrna vaccines.
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The ones that came out in November 2021? No shit that helped out after they were released, but the fact that they were able to keep the spread so low, shows that isolation works, even if people don't want to admit it.

abandonconflict said:
ok, prove that.
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lol sure. Let me just break out my spell book and look at a alternate universe where the hospitals that were at capacity, faired in a total free for all environment during the first months of the pandemic.
 
abandonconflict

abandonconflict

Well-Known Member
hanimmal said:
where the hospitals that were at capacity, faired in a total free for all environment during the first months of the pandemic.
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So when NYC was on a full blown lockdown, almost everything closed, the hospitals weren't at capacity?

Did that change because of those unconstitutional lockdowns or because the feds allocated resources to NYC? Beds and ventilators brought in just for Cuomo's little slice of paradise.
 
abandonconflict

abandonconflict

Well-Known Member
You deserve whatever misfortune befalls you if you're so willing to forego having evidence provided to you that Donald Trump's USA allowed mayors and governors to infringe on constitutional rights without proving that the measures were effective.

The fact is, it should have been possible for you to prove it by now.
 
hanimmal

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
abandonconflict said:
So when NYC was on a full blown lockdown, almost everything closed, the hospitals weren't at capacity?

Did that change because of those unconstitutional lockdowns or because the feds allocated resources to NYC?
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I don't know, I don't live in New York (where they in a 'full blown lockdown, and if so what were the specifics to that), and don't know anyone that works in those hospitals, nor do I know the particular statistics of their capacity.

I do know that they were asking for help from medical professionals from outside states though. And early on when hospitals were trying like hell to figure out how to treat this virus, it really was a crapshoot.

Anyways, let me know when you find the answer to your question.


abandonconflict said:
Did that change because of those unconstitutional lockdowns or because the feds allocated resources to NYC?
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lol what was 'unconstitutional', specifically what part of the constitution was being violated? And what lockdown?
 
abandonconflict

abandonconflict

Well-Known Member
The arguments I have seen are as follows:

"define work"
"define proof"
"define lockdown"
To which I answered.

Then it was "Sweden suffered ten times as many deaths as several other countries combined" with no citation included.

Then it was "But Austrailia" to which I replied that the success could be explained by other factors and that the the actual control of the pandemic clearly correlates to the supply of mrna vaccines just as it does in all other countries.

All else I have seen are memes and insults. Hopefully I see something better here in a day or two from those of you who were militant lockdown activists.
 
abandonconflict

abandonconflict

Well-Known Member
hanimmal said:
I don't know
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This is really all you had to say. You are arguing with more intent than evidence but the fact is, you don't know. You just want to have the last word I guess. You're kind of taking this in circles.

Let me refocus this for you.

The intent of the lockdowns, all along, was alway very specific. They were intended to "flatten the curve" in order to avoid a situation where hospitals were beyond capacity. It's pretty clear. Instead of trying to get bogged down with define this and define that. You either disagree with this fact or you are just politically motivated to argue against what you deem to be politically charged ideas in a political section of a forum. I understand you can't focus but you're the one who started following the thread and addressing me to debate.

There is no proof that any measure which could even looslely be defined as a "lockdown" resulted in a hospital avoiding overload. This is a fact. You might come in and say "well it seems like it would maybe help if people aren't going out to eat in restaurants" or whatever. Actually I think your little exclamation was even stupider but whatever. No proof.

In fact, you can't even prove that any non medical health effort had any impact on overall mortality to covid when you take the entire time span of the pandemic into account. Again, this is a fact because such proof does not exist.

The fact that I am rubbing this in faces notwithstanding, this is not ideological. This is factual.

Lockdowns did not work.
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
abandonconflict said:
This is really all you had to say. You are arguing with more intent than evidence but the fact is, you don't know. You just want to have the last word I guess. You're kind of taking this in circles.

Let me refocus this for you.

The intent of the lockdowns, all along, was alway very specific. They were intended to "flatten the curve" in order to avoid a situation where hospitals were beyond capacity. It's pretty clear. Instead of trying to get bogged down with define this and define that. You either disagree with this fact or you are just politically motivated to argue against what you deem to be politically charged ideas in a political section of a forum. I understand you can't focus but you're the one who started following the thread and addressing me to debate.

There is no proof that any measure which could even looslely be defined as a "lockdown" resulted in a hospital avoiding overload. This is a fact. You might come in and say "well it seems like it would maybe help if people aren't going out to eat in restaurants" or whatever. Actually I think your little exclamation was even stupider but whatever. No proof.

In fact, you can't even prove that any non medical health effort had any impact on overall mortality to covid when you take the entire time span of the pandemic into account. Again, this is a fact because such proof does not exist.

The fact that I am rubbing this in faces notwithstanding, this is not ideological. This is factual.

Lockdowns did not work.
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Welcome back, AC. Missed you.

What do you require for proof? A controlled experiment where we account for many factors and compare how many die in each group? That's not going to happen. If you demand certainty, you won't find it in science.
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
So nice to be able to have this discussion before and after the crisis.

This rather lengthy and dry summary of various studies show how there still isn't certainty one way or the other that "lockdowns do (or don't) work"

www.factcheck.org

What We've Learned About So-Called 'Lockdowns' and the COVID-19 Pandemic - FactCheck.org

Plenty of peer-reviewed studies have found government restrictions early in the pandemic, such as business closures and physical distancing measures, reduced COVID-19 cases and/or mortality, compared with what would have happened without those measures. But conservative news outlets and...
www.factcheck.org www.factcheck.org

As I said earlier, if you want certainty, go to Christian Evangelist websites, science is not where you'll find it. Especially when you are talking about meta data and happenstance experiments, such as "Sweden vs Denmark" or some such social data.

That said, the preponderance of data suggests that lives were saved and the various measures taken to slow the spread were effective. Some studies differ but they are in the minority. None of them are perfect. BTW, my own experience has been that masks, avoiding crowded public venues, not eating out, working from home as much as possible and wearing a mask while at work has been good. And following vaccination guidelines. I still haven't come down with Covid.

It all comes down to something that can be said with certainty. If one isn't exposed to a virus, they won't come down with the disease caused by it.
 
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