Lollipopping ( Any Scientific Evidence? )

Pass it Around

Well-Known Member
Stupid is as stupid does.

Scientific investigation requires strict control of variables and reproducibility of results to be valid. You will never see that in cannabis forums. You will be subjected to plenty of anecdotal evidence, hearsay, parroting of popular thought, hype and conjecture aka "seeing what you want to see".

UB
Yup, no actual scientific studies being done with a control group. I understand this and that is why my plants keep every leaf they have unless it has gotten nasty. I grow bushes not twigs.

My curiosity was in seeing if anyone actual does try to do an experiment at least it would be a step in the right direction. I really can't believe my buddy chops 1/3 of his plant off... I mean literally 1/3 of his plant is bare as a babys ass.
 

bf80255

Well-Known Member
Gawd, another defoliation thread?



Here we go again. When in the hell are you guys gonna learn something about photosynthesis, and what's this "energy" stuff? What energy are you talking about? Any leaf aka "sucker" on a tomato plant or cannabis contributes to the overall welfare of the plant doesn't matter where it's located. If it's not productive the plant will drop it on its own.

I grow tomatoes year long and have never pulled any leaves off. I mean, how stupid can you get?

UB
I know about photosynthesis for the most part (im no scientist) the main reason i suggest anyone defoliate is for airflow and pest and disease prevention ( ounce worth a pound of cure) with intensive SOG setups otherwise i would not suggest removing fans until they want to come off ( fall off or a light tapping knocks them off) you also have to use your better judgment and if a leaf is over 50% necrotic or yellowing (color yellow attracts pests like fungus gnats and root aphids) then its probably best to just yank the bitch.

"energy"
In physics, energy is a property of objects, transferable among them via fundamental interactions, which can be converted in form but not created or destroyed. The joule is the SI unit of energy, based on the amount transferred to an object by the mechanical work of moving it 1 metre against a force of 1 newton.[1]

Work and heat are two categories of processes or mechanisms that can transfer a given amount of energy. The second law of thermodynamics limits the amount of work that can be performed by energy that is obtained via a heating process—some energy is always lost as waste heat. The maximum amount that can go into work is called the available energy. Systems such as machines and living things often require available energy, not just any energy. Mechanical and other forms of energy can be transformed in the other direction into thermal energy without such limitations.

(from wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy )


Photosynthesis is a process used by plants and other organisms to convert light energy, normally from the Sun, into chemical energy that can be later released to fuel the organisms' activities.

(google search "photosynthesis")

i beleive the specific "energy" in question is radiant energy and removing fan leaves from the lower 40% of your plant has little effect on yield imo (again you are correct purely anecdotal but I do what works and this hasnt hurt me in the past so I advocate responsible defoliation lol) as long as you do it early in flower maybe 4 weeks in at latest then ease up. and why deny a proven strategy that tomato gardeners know to work and produce larger more marketable fruits just as with cannabis removing lower "popcorn" bud sites allows the plants energy to be focused on the main cola "marketable fruit" look into apples and other arboreal fruit species as well taking off smaller weaker fruits is common practice to get the biggest and best looking fruits. now if yield is a concern and its just to fill your personal jars you may get slightly more weight without the removal of the little buds but its negligible in my experience.

removing fans does remove some of the plants stored sugars and carbs but the plant is also designed (very well) to produce those same sugars throughout its entire life it wont suddenly starve and die lol I know this from personal experience. and again uncle ben is correct this should all be taken with a grain of salt because last i checked no one on RIU gows in perfect laboratory settings.... no one.
 

Stompromper

Well-Known Member
Gawd, another defoliation thread?



Here we go again. When in the hell are you guys gonna learn something about photosynthesis, and what's this "energy" stuff? What energy are you talking about? Any leaf aka "sucker" on a tomato plant or cannabis contributes to the overall welfare of the plant doesn't matter where it's located. If it's not productive the plant will drop it on its own.

I grow tomatoes year long and have never pulled any leaves off. I mean, how stupid can you get?

UB
I'm not talking about leaves I'm talking about branches. You obviously don't know shit about growing tomatoes either.
 

natro.hydro

Well-Known Member
When I was vegging these two clones I had going I was pinching off tops as often as I could and super cropping any stem I saw because I wanted them to have a great structure and pretty much flat canopy without SCROG. I accomplished that but I had to clean up the lower parts because there was no getting airflow into the middle of these things, just to much foliage and would have wind burned my plants just trying. Now I am sure most will say I only have to do this because I use LEDs and I agree to some extent, but selective pruning is necessary in my experience albeit limited to growing with LEDs since I have never used an HID.
Anyways here is a before and after pic of the last time I cleaned em up before they went to flower.
2014-03-07 17.19.31.jpg 2014-03-09 18.06.53.jpg 2014-03-09 18.06.59.jpg 2014-03-09 18.06.34.jpg
So this is why I lollipop/thin the lower branches. Not scientific I know but when I don't get aggressive with the pruning I end up displeased with what is down there at harvest. Not to mention I hate trimming those so they just go right to the hash pile.
 

Cannasutraorganics

Well-Known Member
I've done the side by side lollipop. I've done way more then that. And I only top my plants once and never cut the tip of a main branch. I take everything off below the top 20 inches indoors and top 2 feet outdoors. Let veg back five days and flip. I yield over 2.5 pounds per 1000 watt light in a 25 sqft area. In organics and soil.
 

Cannasutraorganics

Well-Known Member
image.jpg This is what one gallon pots look like in my garden. I can fit 36 under one light in a 5x5 tent. Produce 20 to 35 grams per plant. That's about 3 pounds per light. In soil. Organically. Welcome to the big leagues.
 

dankdope

Active Member
Gawd, another defoliation thread?



Here we go again. When in the hell are you guys gonna learn something about photosynthesis, and what's this "energy" stuff? What energy are you talking about? Any leaf aka "sucker" on a tomato plant or cannabis contributes to the overall welfare of the plant doesn't matter where it's located. If it's not productive the plant will drop it on its own.

I grow tomatoes year long and have never pulled any leaves off. I mean, how stupid can you get?

UB
the defolihater troll strikes again, clearly the people that want to talk about pruning, defoliating and lolipopping couldn't give a flying fuck about what you've read somewhere on google. being reasonably new to growing I would read all your posts you seemed knowledgable but know I realise you are a total arrogant joke with no life, most of your stuff seems copy paste crap from the www with piss all pics, proof and only a small backing from loyal supporters which almost seem like you under another account? mind your own f**king business and go back to admiring your precious avatar pic of a plant you may or may not have (but clearly %100 think you did) grow back in the 80s.
 

chuck estevez

Well-Known Member
View attachment 3264482 This is what one gallon pots look like in my garden. I can fit 36 under one light in a 5x5 tent. Produce 20 to 35 grams per plant. That's about 3 pounds per light. In soil. Organically. Welcome to the big leagues.
I don't chop nothing, grow 9 plants in a 5x5 area and get 112 or more grams per plant.using nutrients, call it organic or not, you wouldn't know. You are still in the minors son.
 

Stompromper

Well-Known Member
Soon as someone talks shit about someone pruning suckers off tomato plants throws flags for me.

Buffalo said.
 

chuck estevez

Well-Known Member
also found this,
Should I be pruning off the lower branches of my tomato plants? How far off of the ground should the lower branches be?

Pruning is not necessary, but some people do it to keep soil that might harbor diseases from splashing up on the leaves; 12 to 18 inches from the ground ought to do it.
Is it true that pinching off the flowers on the tomato plant helps it to produce more fruit?

It will not help production, but it could increase the size of the tomatoes left on the vine by a little bit.
 

chuck estevez

Well-Known Member
and this.
To Pinch out Suckers or Not

Some gardeners prune tomatoes by pinching out suckers or the leafy shoots that grow from leaf axils. The leaf axil is the "V" between the central trunk (stem) and lateral branches.

Here is how you determine whether to remove suckers or not.

If left on the plant, suckers will keep growing and usually produce fruit. It can be helpful sometimes to prune suckers out so the overall plant doesn't get top-heavy, or produce more fruit than the plant can mature in time for fall. Just keep in mind, if you prune them, you will get fewer, but larger fruit.

You can let some of the suckers stay on if you want, suckers don't hurt anything. It's up to you how you want your tomatoes to grow. For instance, if your plants are allowed to sprawl along the ground as I do with my tomato plants, I never remove any suckers at all!

If you just don't know, try pruning one plant and not another, and see how each one turns out. That way you'll know for sure which technique works best for you.
 

Cannasutraorganics

Well-Known Member
I don't chop nothing, grow 9 plants in a 5x5 area and get 112 or more grams per plant.using nutrients, call it organic or not, you wouldn't know. You are still in the minors son.
You have no math abilities do you? Your producing 2 pounds per light. I'm doing 3+. And I do nine 5 gallon pots under one light. But I produce 180 grams per plant. That's 3.5 pounds per light. I also do 16 three gallons under one light and get 4 pounds per light. And all are lollipopped. Go back to school. Dumbass...
 

Cannasutraorganics

Well-Known Member
you're the one that said you get 20 to 35 grams per plant, did you not????????????????
now it's 180 per plant? how is my math wrong when you said you get barely over an ounce per plant. Now that you changed it, sure, it adds up, but I only went off what YOU posted, so fuck you.
Said with 36 plants in the room. I was comparing apples to apples. He was talking about one gallon pots. I grow in many different sizes at the same time. I use pots you've never heard of. So when you brought up five gallons I explained my five gallon grow. You didn't do the math. I even said about 3 pounds and you still didn't add yours up. And how much of yours is little popcorn nugs? That's hash material at best and isn't included in my numbers. Only dense top grade buds.
 

chuck estevez

Well-Known Member
Said with 36 plants in the room. I was comparing apples to apples. He was talking about one gallon pots. I grow in many different sizes at the same time. I use pots you've never heard of. So when you brought up five gallons I explained my five gallon grow. You didn't do the math. I even said about 3 pounds and you still didn't add yours up. And how much of yours is little popcorn nugs? That's hash material at best and isn't included in my numbers. Only dense top grade buds.
yep. you're right, I thought you were talking about 5 gal plants with 9 at an ounce each, my apologies.
 

Stompromper

Well-Known Member
Pruning the suckers 1. Keeps more of the sugar producing leaving in direct sunlight, which believe it or not is important. And 2. Keeps the sugars produced by those leaves in the light flowing up one main vine.

Whoever said that it will not improve yield is full of shit. You will have much larger tomatoes on a properly pruned vine than one that is left alone. The vine that is not pruned and left to go will have more tomatoes but they will be smaller.

It also makes a difference if you are growing determinate or indeterminate plants.

Weed works the same way.. cut the suckers and more of the sugars will flow to the mains and not be wasted on a bunch of larf.

But I'm sure uncle know it all will tell us differently cause we're just stupid, uneducated retards.
 

Dankfactory

Well-Known Member
if you take all the stupid little airy buds off the bottoms of each branch it gives the plant no choice but to concentrate all its energy on the only buds remaining on the branch. it works really good for lst, or scrog grows.
This.
"Scientific Study" Thanks. That made me laugh.
Ever taken a look up into the sky? The sun rises one on end, travels over the earth and ultimately sets. If you were a cannabis plant in the wild this would provide you with plenty of light on the sides and undergrowth. In a grow room your lights are stationary. A plants yield is pretty much predetermined, it's simply up to the grower to maximize efficiency with certain techniques so there is zero dead space. All of that undergrowth is spindly, unlit mass that not only hinders airflow, it also pulls potential energy that could've been sent to the top of the canopy. Do I have a Stanford double blind study to prove this? Negative. But you'd have to be an inferior "grower" to dispute the results of thousands who have documented proof of success with the method.
 

reasonevangelist

Well-Known Member
Keeps more of the sugar producing leaving in direct sunlight, which believe it or not is important.
This is the part that makes the affirmative argument, for me.

How can the stuff that isn't getting direct light, still produce something worth the energy consumed? If those leaves are in shade (from the top of the plant), they aren't "pulling their weight," and so energy they should be harnessing for their own local fruit, has to be diverted from the energy harnessed by the upper leaves, which are in direct light... but in diverting that energy harnessed by those upper leaves, what impact does said energy diversion (or dilution) have on the top-local bud/fruit sites?

I would expect that if the top leaves are having to carry the whole load of light energy conversion, then they most likely won't be producing their best fruits at the top OR the bottom... because photosynthetic efficiency has limits, perhaps? How many buds can one whole leaf efficiently make?

However, increasing light penetration depth, would then move into the realm of having more leaves harnessing energy, per light source, in which case it might be much better to minimize pruning (or, it's always better to "minimize" pruning, in that you want to do it as little as possible, just on the "minimized" side of exactly the right amount). Pruning too much is obviously increasingly detrimental, after a point... but knocking off a couple shaded bottom leaves probably has an irrelevant amount of impact.

So, probably best to try to keep as much of the plant as you can, bearing in mind a few fundamentals, such as "leaves need direct light to photosynthesize at maximum efficiency, so shaded leaves will consume energy to grow, but won't give much back in the form of harnessed light energy..." so probably better to remove anything that isn't getting ANY direct light, and perhaps even stuff that gets less than 50% direct light.

You wouldn't want to spend a bunch of money on solar panels to harness sunlight, and then place them in the shade... so why would you want to spend a bunch of the plant's energy to grow leaves that won't touch enough light to be worth growing? Nip them as soon as you know they won't get enough light to be worth the energy required to grow them. Waiting longer is wasting energy (e.g. resources, nutrients, electricity, time...). If you wait too long and they become retarded branches (slowed and with little chance to fully develop), maybe try to manipulate the canopy so they get light... or just chop 'em.

All i can cite is the wealth of information available on this topic (this site and others), and limited personal experience.

I can see both sides here, but through my own experiences, have discovered which side of that line i reside. Sure, it's cool to "just let the plant do its thing, man!" but sometimes living things don't do their best (or what you want) unless you manipulate or modify them in some way.
 

Cannasutraorganics

Well-Known Member
So far nobody on this thread has hit the nail on the head about this. Some dancing around the facts and much conjecture.
In the wild they loose most leaves before the bud is half grown. Unless we water it often. And in the wild they all make seeds. So nothing we are doing is like the wild. Get that first. Now using natural responses to different stimuli is an effective way to get the results we want without manipulating and overloading crap in them. Entice them to do what you want. The information on weed Is vast from 100 to 600 years ago. Many cultures have detailed studied it and it's reactions to stimuli and changes in nutes and many other things. Go on MIT website for some great books. Some writings on it in china and India go back 3000+ years. Extraction and tinctures. Tricom development. Uses. How to increase potency. Asians are great at getting the most out of what the grow and do.
 
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