Kassiopeija
Well-Known Member
that's right medium hard tap will already contain it sufficiently
magnesium, Iron or zinc deficiency
- Thread starter AkZuz
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McShnutz
Well-Known Member
I hope people dont start dumping copious amounts of calcium in now. Sulfur is predominantly used by the plant. Sulfur interacts with almost every element macr, secondary, micro and trace. Why is it that alot of growers don't pay attention to it. I'm adding sulfur anytime I increase cal mag and K.
Brawndo G
Active Member
It's apparent to me that y'all will never believe anything I write regardless of how much "proof" I provide, but high calcium does not block the uptake of p or k. Low calcium will definitely block p uptake though. Hard water isn't good for nutrient availability. It's more likely the hard water is making ca unavailable which in turn makes p unavailable. Also, it's very important to let a soil sit for 4-6 weeks after amending it. Soil and nutrient manufacturers are completely clueless when it comes to formulating a balanced soil or nutrient formula. I know that doesn't make sense, but it's the way it is. There is absolutely no reason to increase soil volume to provide proper nutrition to a plant. People do that because they don't know a better way. Why are you guys so adamant about your beliefs and unwilling to accept that there may be a better way?
PadawanWarrior
Well-Known Member
PadawanWarrior
Well-Known Member
I wasn't trying to be a dick. Just having some fun with ya. But too much Ca can lock out K, P, and Mg, plus other stuff.
Brawndo G
Active Member
That chart may apply to the soil solution which is basically the nutrients in the water portion of the soil, but it has absolutely zero correlation to the composition of the soil which is what I was talking about. There are cation exchange sites in the soil where the positive ions(cations) attach themselves and displace hydrogen thus raising the pH of the soil. The cec of the soil is a measurement of how many cation exchange sites there are and thus how much nutrition it can hold. Calcium, magnesium, and potassium are the cations we want attached to the base exchange sites. Calcium acts as the master key in the soil. The ideal base distribution is 85% ca, 10-12% mg, and 3-5% k. High calcium in the soil matrix is absolutely not an antagonist to anything. It is true that one cation will push out another cation, but that will only be a negative thing with calcium when it is over 85% saturation and nobody ever adds enough calcium to their soil for that to occur. Like I said, it's imperative that a soil has time to "cook" after it is amended for it to finish reacting and be a balanced soil.
The reason I say soil and nute manufacturers are clueless is because they disregard the importance of manganese, zinc, copper, boron, calcium, and the p/k ratio. The metals in the proper ratios, along with sufficient calcium on the base exchange sites will maximize yield, quality, and resistance to pests and pathogens. Also, cannabis and other fruiting and flowering plants go through a root flush at the beginning of flowering. Those new roots want calcium and dislike salts. Adding a bunch of k at the start of flowering totally stunts root growth and reduces yield. Also, elemental p needs to be equal to or greater than k throughout the life cycle of the plant for maximum p uptake. So in n-p-k terms, p needs to be 2x k to be in the proper ratio. Look at the p/k ratio in bloom nutes(or even veg nutes). K is usually ridiculously high. Adding a bit more k toward the end of flowering is beneficial, but by that point most people have already lost a significant amount of yield.
The reason I say soil and nute manufacturers are clueless is because they disregard the importance of manganese, zinc, copper, boron, calcium, and the p/k ratio. The metals in the proper ratios, along with sufficient calcium on the base exchange sites will maximize yield, quality, and resistance to pests and pathogens. Also, cannabis and other fruiting and flowering plants go through a root flush at the beginning of flowering. Those new roots want calcium and dislike salts. Adding a bunch of k at the start of flowering totally stunts root growth and reduces yield. Also, elemental p needs to be equal to or greater than k throughout the life cycle of the plant for maximum p uptake. So in n-p-k terms, p needs to be 2x k to be in the proper ratio. Look at the p/k ratio in bloom nutes(or even veg nutes). K is usually ridiculously high. Adding a bit more k toward the end of flowering is beneficial, but by that point most people have already lost a significant amount of yield.
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Kassiopeija
Well-Known Member
About what type of soil you are actually refering to? Sandy loam? Please name its composition completely otherwise we'll be just heading down in a wild goose chase with a guy that just denied up-potting to fresh soil won't increase nutritions or jumps from soil compositions to bottled nutes ratios in the very same paragraph.
And yeah that PK is for fruiting plants. Like eggplant or tomatoes. These contain much water. Unlike cannabis that grows an achene. With potassium being mainly the physiological regulator of water inside plants.
And yeah that PK is for fruiting plants. Like eggplant or tomatoes. These contain much water. Unlike cannabis that grows an achene. With potassium being mainly the physiological regulator of water inside plants.
Kassiopeija
Well-Known Member
Maybe the problem is with these shady US fake soils that mostly sport non-composted woodchips, bark, sand or whatever they could come up with... here, and only here at RIU, I been informed that neither wormcompost is fertilizer and peat totally inert... so a typical US "soil" must contain NPK 0-0-0 which -of course- creates the incentive for the customer to buy 100 fancy bottles that are mostly expensive water.
Kassiopeija
Well-Known Member
I just read 4 posts & that guy seems to be a lout spewing forth bro'science nonsense in every 2nd sentence. He's refering to Coco as soil, that has too high Mg in it, that must be flushed out with gypsum because the Ca will increase oxygen and of course the 100% idiot theory that more water will equate more oxygen to drowning roots.... then he suspects the bicarbonates in hard tapwater prevent that and blocks the Ca but that guy actually uses rainwater, then suddenly it's the low P and so on & forth....
Brawndo G
Active Member
It seems like you just want to argue with me because you keep twisting my words....or you don't read carefully. I wrote there is no reason to up-pot a plant to provide proper nutrition. Yes, it will increase the amount of nutrients in proportion to the increase in soil volume. If there are only 2 or 3 ppms of zinc in the soil to begin with and there need to be 25 ppms, are you going to increase the soil volume 8-10 times? That seems absurd to me when adding a very small amount of zinc sulfate will make the same adjustment. That was the point I was making.
As far as cannabis being different that a fruiting plant, I have no clue. I do know that cannabis still undergoes a root flush at the beginning of flowering, and the new roots are stunted by K.
Kassiopeija
Well-Known Member
could you cite a scientific source to backup this statement
Brawndo G
Active Member
I can, but I have no reason to since you've totally ignored all the other data I've provided and continue to argue with me.
Kassiopeija
Well-Known Member
well I went over to ICMag but that guy isnt a good source of info. If he's a weedhead he destroys his memory & ability to make correct associations anyway
Kassiopeija
Well-Known Member
I did not ignore but reject based on the questionability of the source
Kassiopeija
Well-Known Member
how do you know this when a veg fertilizer was given?
also ppm without relation to the netto amount of medium used is a worthless info anyway...
Brawndo G
Active Member
I came back because I realized that increasing the volume of the soil by using the same soil will keep the ppms of all nutrients the same as ppms are a ratio to begin with not the total amount in the soil. That brings me back to saying the correct course of action is to increase the amount of nutrients in the soil, not the soil volume. I don't know that there were only 2-3 ppms of zinc to begin with in the OP's soil, but he was using FFOF soil, and I happened to find results from an actual soil analysis performed on two different bags of FFOF soil. That's the best I could do. I don't see anyone else providing a soil analysis on FFOF soil, so we'll have to settle for the ones that I found. It is possible that the OP's veg nutes had some zinc sulfate and manganese sulfate in them, but as far as I'm aware those would only be contained in a micronutrient blend which wasn't mentioned. So again, I am making the most educated guess I can given the info provided. However, I didn't claim that the soil didn't need anything added for 30 days without any sort of evidence to the contrary just because it says so on the bag like you did. Also, I can tell by looking at the pics of the plants that they are zinc deficient. I've seen it multiple times before, and I've never seen a bagged "soil" with zinc sulfate added. Like I've stated before, it is necessary to add zinc sulfate to get anywhere near the required amount. Debate me all you want, it won't change that fact.
PadawanWarrior
Well-Known Member
It would help if you would break up those paragraphs. Makes it easier for the reader.
I started with FFOF and now it's no-till soil. Never tested it, but just guess what it wants and keep feeding the soil. Just keep up with top dressing, which I get lazy about sometimes.
Just took a few pics tonight of my old soil. Took some last night too, but that's a different thread. Still don't have organics mastered though.
Bordello clones. 1 week since flip.
Just watered and took a couple pics, so said what the hell. Hopefully I can take them the distance, but it's not like I'm out of weed, :mrgreen:.
www.rollitup.org
Kassiopeija
Well-Known Member
Is it realistic what he says that in the US a veg formulae doesnt contain all essentials?
How would that grow a plant in rockwool then?
How would that grow a plant in rockwool then?