Max PPF/PPFD with and without Co2

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
Do you have land space to put up a wind turbine? Or even solar panels? Offsetting the power draw with alternative energy might be a solution to your problem.
Neither of those energy sources has the dependability necessary to be a substitute for grid power. Their problem is that they're both intermittent sources; the wind doesn't always blow and the sun doesn't always shine.

The best these sources could do would be to offset the demand. For 1000ft² it just doesn't really make sense.

A generator would have the necessary reliability, but it would be much more expensive than grid power.

200A @240V would provide entirely enough power to cover his needs, especially if he uses LED lighting.
 

Photon Flinger

Well-Known Member
Neither of those energy sources has the dependability necessary to be a substitute for grid power. Their problem is that they're both intermittent sources; the wind doesn't always blow and the sun doesn't always shine.

The best these sources could do would be to offset the demand. For 1000ft² it just doesn't really make sense.

A generator would have the necessary reliability, but it would be much more expensive than grid power.

200A @240V would provide entirely enough power to cover his needs, especially if he uses LED lighting.

Up here they do work well especially outside urban areas.

We found these black boxes that we call batteries to hold electrons for later use. :)

But yeah seriously, battery and solar tech has improved significantly over the years. 200a @240 is roughly 50kw, double that for turbines as a good start. And like you said, it is an offset.

Generator too expensive? Try using synfuel (aka wood gas) if you have access to lots of trees. There is also bio-diesel and some pig farmers have methane/natural gas reclamation.

Hydro is better known as electricity generation up here and there are a good number of options if you are near a creek or river.
 

Photon Flinger

Well-Known Member
Last time I checked in with them, they weren't selling fuel cell cogeneration to residential customers.

But I think this is the next frontier in energy efficiency.

Once material cost and r&d are recouped, it should be affordable. Their business plan was to use large enterprise applications to fund the development of the residential offering. 7 years running is pretty reliable so I will be getting one.
 

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
Once material cost and r&d are recouped, it should be affordable. Their business plan was to use large enterprise applications to fund the development of the residential offering. 7 years running is pretty reliable so I will be getting one.
I've been planning a purchase for years.

I'm still waiting. Meanwhile, Panasonic has been selling them in Japan for years, with over 100,000 units sold.

Recent news;
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-06-16/panasonic-aims-to-expand-home-fuel-cell-system-market-in-europe
 
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waveman

Well-Known Member
Ttystikk is right. My power provider says I'm safe with 120Amps continuous. After pricing COBs and drivers and watching a lot of Growmau5 vids I have picked a new favorite design to copy or buy. The PLC-6 seems to be VERY economical and if my build will allow for DIY LED I shall copy with pride his VERO 29B 6-100W COB set up. With the flowering room having 36 4'x4' areas each with a PLC 6 I'm drawing just under 100Amps from flowering lights leaving 20 Amps for veg lights, fans, dehumidifier, water pumps, etc. does anyone know how to size a really pro ceiling mount dehumidifier?
 

pirg420

Well-Known Member
Ttystikk is right. My power provider says I'm safe with 120Amps continuous. After pricing COBs and drivers and watching a lot of Growmau5 vids I have picked a new favorite design to copy or buy. The PLC-6 seems to be VERY economical and if my build will allow for DIY LED I shall copy with pride his VERO 29B 6-100W COB set up. With the flowering room having 36 4'x4' areas each with a PLC 6 I'm drawing just under 100Amps from flowering lights leaving 20 Amps for veg lights, fans, dehumidifier, water pumps, etc. does anyone know how to size a really pro ceiling mount dehumidifier?
What about AC?
 

waveman

Well-Known Member
No additional AC. With the dehumidifier, passive heat sinks, 12' high ceilings, and 60" ceiling fans I'm ok. Luckily I'm up in elevation and on the east side of a hill so it's rarely above 80 degrees even in the hottest months. The room is also inside an RV garage providing a buffer that can be cooled or heated with existing climate control.

An excellent question. There's no doubt that AC of some kind will be needed at this scale, LED or not.
 

Ussur D

Member
Does anyone know if there is a calculated correlation between the amount of CO2 in the air and the PPFD value? I am looking to equip a new greenhouse with a supplemental light system, and it can become quite pricey if I follow the vendors´ advice. The greenhouse is in a very sunny area but i will still have to add light to it, especially on shorter winter days. In any cas i am looking to create optimal conditions without overspending. Can anyone tell for sure how much light I should add if the only CO2 there is is atmospheric or ~350 ppm. If the average temperature is around 27C will the plants need a 1000 mmol/m2/s or is that gonna be an overkill? Is there a known chart that relates to that? Thanks everyone!
 

PSUAGRO.

Well-Known Member
Does anyone know if there is a calculated correlation between the amount of CO2 in the air and the PPFD value? I am looking to equip a new greenhouse with a supplemental light system, and it can become quite pricey if I follow the vendors´ advice. The greenhouse is in a very sunny area but i will still have to add light to it, especially on shorter winter days. In any cas i am looking to create optimal conditions without overspending. Can anyone tell for sure how much light I should add if the only CO2 there is is atmospheric or ~350 ppm. If the average temperature is around 27C will the plants need a 1000 mmol/m2/s or is that gonna be an overkill? Is there a known chart that relates to that? Thanks everyone!

You can buy led shop lights on the "cheap".... ul listed and plug &play. Usually thin (won't block much sunlight) and in four/ two foot options....... not as efficient as the top of the line stuff in here.
 

Gogojo

Member
Do I have the math correct in supposing that for an auto flower grow in 24/0 cycle, you are looking to maintain half the ppfd of the optimal range for a 12/12 photo cycle? From the conversations on dli I’m reading it seems to scale proportionately. Could one theoretically cut both their material cost of lights and their electricity bill in half by switching out from photos to autos?
 

wietefras

Well-Known Member
Do I have the math correct in supposing that for an auto flower grow in 24/0 cycle, you are looking to maintain half the ppfd of the optimal range for a 12/12 photo cycle? From the conversations on dli I’m reading it seems to scale proportionately. Could one theoretically cut both their material cost of lights and their electricity bill in half by switching out from photos to autos?
You use half the intensity, but for twice a long. So overall the amount of light to the plants stays the same, but also the cost of electricity stays the same.

You could saven money on the light itself if only half of it is needed.,
 
heyyy hello everybody.. please someone must know this.. Alright i have one of those PPDF - Photosynthesis Light Quantum Meter readers.. So i'm seeing everyone's saying 800' to 1500' which is fine and all buttttttt when i'm putting this Reader up to the Light to check the reading.. it says its only 220' to 300' and thats like right up snug to the Light like WTF.. i'm using 1000watt DE's too so i know they're nice and we produce good but dam.. Basically i'm wondering if this 800' to 1500' everyone's talking about is the LUX or something..??? there's different Modes on the device like LUX/FC and then Umole/m2/s.. i don't know it seems impossible to hit over 1000 unless the Top of the Canopy is directly under the Lights.. Unless its the LUX ya'll talking about that should be up around 1500'..??? i'm using KING WING DE' 1000watt Lights and they're a few feet up from the Canopy.. i got all different kinds of lights too and checked them all with the Reader and it just seems crazy to try and even get the Top of your Canopy near 1000' umoles.... hmm fawk.. any help or words would be awesome.. salute everyone
 
hey anybody know anything about how high the U'mole's are supposed to be at the Top of the Canopy..? People are saying 1000' to 1500' but that's not Umole's is it..? I got a nice PPFD reader but can't get the U'mole's part above 600' no matter how close the reader is to the light.. fml! Any input helps) cool) and I'm using nice 1000'watt DE's.. my plants are always good but when I put that Reader up it said 220' like wtf...
 
Hey is PPM the same as U'Moles bro.. I see eople are saying 1000' to 1500' but that's not Umole's is it..? I got a nice PPFD reader but can't get the U'mole's part above 600' no matter how close the reader is to the light.. fml! Any input helps) cool) and I'm using nice 1000'watt DE's.. my plants are always good but when I put that Reader up it said 220' like wtf...

1000ppfd without and 1500ppfd with

according to...... um let me find it

sorry can't find it but its from a study paper done within the last decade
If you are running standard 400ppm atmospheric CO2 then saturation occurs ~400 to ~600 umoles. Plants can handle more, they just won't use it.

If you want them to handle more, you can add in more CO2 above the 400ppm level but you need to keep the temperatures down under 30 celcius. >1000ppfd + >30 celcius has been shown to decrease the rate of photosynthesis.

You will have variances in strains and, of course, from your specific environment but those are safe starting points. Two things to keep in mind:

1. That is ~400 to ~600 for the entire plant, not just the top with only ~50 umoles hitting plant material below. High amounts of PPFD are great for the whole plant but you only get that with the Sun.
2. Consider increasing air circulation before adding in CO2. More air circulation will help increase CO2 to the plant and reduce temps.
 
Hey is PPM the same as U'Moles bro.. I see eople are saying 1000' to 1500' but that's not Umole's is it..? I got a nice PPFD reader but can't get the U'mole's part above 600' no matter how close the reader is to the light.. fml! Any input helps) cool) and I'm using nice 1000'watt DE's.. my plants are always good but when I put that Reader up it said 220' like wtf...
Here is the only study I have come across mentioning cannabis and PPFD.
That "Chandra" chart has always been a bit suspect. All in all it's pretty much like any light response curve, but it seems a bit too steep. People who tried different light intensities (including myself) did not see the exponential gains in yield/Watt which you would expect from that chart when lowering the light levels. In reality the relation between light intensity seemed much more linear between 400umol/s/m2 and 1000umol/s/m2.

A couple of years ago on the YOR (Yield-O-Rama) site they were looking into which factors attributed most to increased yields. For this they collected a lot of yield information from many growers. In total something like 175 grow reports were submitted.

I plotted those results in a chart showing the yield in g/m2 on the vertical axis and estimated light intensity in umol/s/m2 on the horizontal axis. The red line is a smoothed average. Blue points are without CO2 and green with CO2.

View attachment 3788419
This is based on grow reports with different genetics, different lights, different temperatures, different medium (hydro/soil), different stock (cuttings vs seeds) etc etc etc. Yet on average it looks pretty much like the chart we have all been using and it shows that adding more light well over 1000umol/s/m2 still increases yield. Only above 1500 umol/s/m2 does it really seem to taper off, but there is not enough data there to say anything definitive.

Still, the biggest difference compared to the "Chandra" chart, is that it indeed shows a much more linear slope between 400 and 1000 umol/s/m2 range.Based on the average line you could expect an average yield of 0.56g/umol/s/m2 @ 400umol/s/m2 and 0.48g/g/umol/s/m2 @ 800umol/s/m2. That would make it around 15% less efficient to run with 800PPFD instead of 400PPFD, but you would also get 70% more yield from the same space. Most likely more compact and harder buds too under the higher light intensity. So less grows needed for a certain amount, more yield from the same area and better (higher priced) product overall. That's why people tend to average around the 600 to 800umol range instead of 400.

It also demonstrates another major mistake in FUD's reasoning that the "optimal" value would be the saturation point. This chart indicates the average saturation point for cannabis is around 1500umol/s/m2. Yet virtually no one is growing at this "optimal" value. Or the other way around, even if the saturation point was around 400umol, it would be much more efficient to grow at 200umol/s/m2.

:edit: Added distinction between CO2 enrichment and no CO2
Well that's going to be controversial. My experience tells me plants will use PPFD over 600 in normal conditions.
 
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