Monsanto cannabis yes or no? The DNA Protection Act of 2013

Genetically Engineered Cannabis yes or no?


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cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
What I tried to say was it doesn't really matter where the genetic alteration came from the end results are the same. So you can go the quick and precise route or you can take the slow, 'hands off' approach. Personally I think it's a false dilemma. But this is a field I don't have the background to 'have' an opinion worth anything LOL.

Merry Christmas, CN and everyone.
Merry Christmas Annie!

I would say that there is a difference of kind and not just technique. Yes, they both introduce directed genotypic change. But selective breeding is "natural" in the sense that we are using the unaltered mechanisms of heredity and selecting the results.

In current genetic engineering, we chemically select the gene we seek (and, with the polymerase chain reaction we can Xerox a few trillion copies) and then use talented enzymes to rather clumsily duct-tape the selected coding string (ideally the gene, the whole gene and nothing but the gene) and hope that there is one viable, complete cell that expresses the sought trait. If so, success.

But there is potential in this mode of engineering for something easily conceived but not easy to reduce to practice.
Until epigenetics and proteomics taught us that the DNA molecule is not a simple linear data tape, the direct ambition was to make a library of known gene sequences, prepare a combinatorial spread of changed sequences, and pan for gold in all that gravel.
But combinatorial approaches are less desirable when the core chemistry (prepping and inserting maybegenes) remains costly.
So we need to devise a more spare and clever approach. But with molecular genetics not yet out of surprises, that approach is not currently clear.

If we arrive at the point where, probably by a convergence of analytical and computational chemistries, we can predict the consequences of a change in a coding base (in a given gene in a given chromosome of one genotype of a species), then the promise of rational genetic engineering will begin to be realized. But the sheer size of the problem means that it'll be a large, long-term project. cn
 

desert dude

Well-Known Member
After reading through this thread, I am left with a simple question: Why ban genetic engineering? I see nothing but good coming from it. The worry that a bacterial gene inserted into a plant, or animal, or human is "unnatural" strikes me as absurd. All life arose from the same soup. We all share the same genetics.

The knee jerk hatred of Monsanto is occu-tard silliness. The claim that all of this genetic engineering has resulted in nothing useful is laughable; why would anybody buy GM corn seeds if they were not useful?

And the final bottom line is this: the genie is out of the bottle and she is not going to be put back in the bottle by a bunch of superstitious Luddites.
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
After reading through this thread, I am left with a simple question: Why ban genetic engineering? I see nothing but good coming from it. The worry that a bacterial gene inserted into a plant, or animal, or human is "unnatural" strikes me as absurd. All life arose from the same soup. We all share the same genetics.

The knee jerk hatred of Monsanto is occu-tard silliness. The claim that all of this genetic engineering has resulted in nothing useful is laughable; why would anybody buy GM corn seeds if they were not useful?

And the final bottom line is this: the genie is out of the bottle and she is not going to be put back in the bottle by a bunch of superstitious Luddites.
I'm as interested in the claims that GM crops are causing harm. I've heard it stated as fact, but when I've looked for a confirmed instance, none has emerged. I can sympathize with the idea that GM crops could be dangerous or abused ... but for it to go beyond vague generic sympathy, I'd need to see a chain of evidence. And shrill doomsaying blogs don't ever provide one, and that's apparently all Google finds for me. cn
 

desert dude

Well-Known Member
I'm as interested in the claims that GM crops are causing harm. I've heard it stated as fact, but when I've looked for a confirmed instance, none has emerged. I can sympathize with the idea that GM crops could be dangerous or abused ... but for it to go beyond vague generic sympathy, I'd need to see a chain of evidence. And shrill doomsaying blogs don't ever provide one, and that's apparently all Google finds for me. cn
Yeah, me too. The claims that GM crops are useless are likewise unconvincing.

Frankly, it's all just superstition as far as I can tell. I am perfectly willing to let everybody practice their superstitions but I am not willing to remake the world to suit them. If one is convinced that GM food is dangerous then, by all means, don't eat it. I will be happy to eat your share.
 

OGEvilgenius

Well-Known Member
I'm as interested in the claims that GM crops are causing harm. I've heard it stated as fact, but when I've looked for a confirmed instance, none has emerged. I can sympathize with the idea that GM crops could be dangerous or abused ... but for it to go beyond vague generic sympathy, I'd need to see a chain of evidence. And shrill doomsaying blogs don't ever provide one, and that's apparently all Google finds for me. cn
They've never been proven safe. If you think 90 day studies, where when reviewed by 3rd parties that don't have direct ties to the corporate interests (like the FDA) have shown statistically significant negative changes to the mice in question anyway (unless you're the FDA or GE or Monsanto) but claimed otherwise (falsely), you feel that's good enough?

How about we prove they are safe with extensive independent long term study?

So far the only long term study has shown danger.

I've seen it criticized, but not with any legitimate criticism. They used mice more prone to tumors. Oh no. Humans are also more prone to tumors than mice typically are (which most likely why this breed of mouse was used). If the results were barely statistically significant, this might be a reasonable criticism. They weren't even close.

Meanwhile actual cancer rates continue to rise.
 

OGEvilgenius

Well-Known Member
Yeah, me too. The claims that GM crops are useless are likewise unconvincing.

Frankly, it's all just superstition as far as I can tell. I am perfectly willing to let everybody practice their superstitions but I am not willing to remake the world to suit them. If one is convinced that GM food is dangerous then, by all means, don't eat it. I will be happy to eat your share.

How about we prove it's safe before we use it? Because that's never happened.
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
They've never been proven safe. If you think 90 day studies, where when reviewed by 3rd parties that don't have direct ties to the corporate interests (like the FDA) have shown statistically significant negative changes to the mice in question anyway (unless you're the FDA or GE or Monsanto) but claimed otherwise (falsely), you feel that's good enough?

How about we prove they are safe with extensive independent long term study?

So far the only long term study has shown danger.

I've seen it criticized, but not with any legitimate criticism. They used mice more prone to tumors. Oh no. Humans are also more prone to tumors than mice typically are (which most likely why this breed of mouse was used). If the results were barely statistically significant, this might be a reasonable criticism. They weren't even close.

Meanwhile actual cancer rates continue to rise.
I know they haven't been proven safe. But I have heard people say they've caused e.g. livestock deaths. I've not been able to confirm such stories.

When you say the long-term study "has shown danger", what danger? And does danger mean "bad things happened" or something less definite? cn
 

OGEvilgenius

Well-Known Member
I know they haven't been proven safe. But I have heard people say they've caused e.g. livestock deaths. I've not been able to confirm such stories.

When you say the long-term study "has shown danger", what danger? And does danger mean "bad things happened" or something less definite? cn
It means drastically reduced life span, increased rates of cancer and organ damage. Short term studies have shown organ damage as well.

Statistically significant findings of toxicity did show up in Monsanto's own 90-day feeding trial on the maize, as revealed by Prof Seralini's team's re-analysis of Monsanto's data:
de Vendomois, J. S., F. Roullier, et al. (2009). "A comparison of the effects of three GM corn varieties on mammalian health." Int J Biol Sci 5(7): 706–726
 

Dr Kynes

Well-Known Member
I know they haven't been proven safe. But I have heard people say they've caused e.g. livestock deaths. I've not been able to confirm such stories.

When you say the long-term study "has shown danger", what danger? And does danger mean "bad things happened" or something less definite? cn
there was a study done, that particular mouse developed for it's pretty much 100% chance of growing huge nasty tumors for cancer research were fed BT corn (starlink) and shockingly, the mice who were DESIGNED to grow tumors grew tumors.

the wacky thing is those mice were genetically modified specifically to encourage the growth of tumors, and theres a variety of "Onco-mouse" which is practically guaranteed to develop just the tumor you want to study.

you could feed them pure natural organic heirloom grown pesticide free corn in a grass hut on san cristobal island surrounded by magic anti-cancer totems while dosing them with coffee enemas and they will STILL grow tumors.

flawed study is flawed.
 

Dr Kynes

Well-Known Member
It means drastically reduced life span, increased rates of cancer and organ damage. Short term studies have shown organ damage as well.

Statistically significant findings of toxicity did show up in Monsanto's own 90-day feeding trial on the maize, as revealed by Prof Seralini's team's re-analysis of Monsanto's data:
de Vendomois, J. S., F. Roullier, et al. (2009). "A comparison of the effects of three GM corn varieties on mammalian health." Int J Biol Sci 5(7): 706–726

The study you reference: http://www.biolsci.org/v05p0706.htm


thats a different study than the one i was looking at before. this one at least appears to be designed for science rather than a groteque freakshow of genetically modified tumor-mice with their entirely expected tumors.

BT corn was designed to produce a toxin which fucks up bud worms but is largely harmless to any non arthropod. stuffing a mouse with this stuff till his belly pops and then examining the "damage' is hardly damning. . theres hundreds of compounds which are harmless to people animals, plants etc in normal doses that turn toxic if you overdose.

even nutrients which are essential for life become toxic if you consume too much (like vitamin b12 which can kill you very slowly if you dont get any, but can kill you in an afternoon if you get too much). this study even declares:

"If a “sign of toxicity” may only provoke a reaction, pathology or a poisoning, a so-called “toxic effect” is without doubt deleterious on a short or a long term. Clearly, the statistically significant effects observed here for all three GM maize varieties investigated are signs of toxicity rather than proofs of toxicity, and this is essentially for three reasons. Firstly, the feeding trials in each case have been conducted only once, and with only one mammalian species. The experiments clearly need to be repeated preferably with more than one species of animal. Secondly, the length of feeding was at most only three months, and thus only relatively acute and medium-term effects can be observed if any similar to what can be derived in a process such as carcinogenesis [19, 20] or after endocrine disruption in adults [21]. Proof of toxicity is hard to decide on the basis of these conditions. Longer-term (up to 2 years) feeding experiments are clearly justified and indeed necessary. This requirement is supported by the fact that cancer, nervous and immune system diseases, and even reproductive disorders for examples can become apparent only after one or two years of a given intervention treatment under investigation, but they will not be evident in all cases after three months of administration when first signs of toxicity may be observed [22, 23]. In addition, large effects (e.g. 40% increase in triglycerides) in all likelihood will be missed with the protocol of the current studies, since they are limited by the number of animals used in each feeding group and by the nature of the parameters studied. Thirdly, the statistical power of the tests conducted is low (30%) because the experimental design of Monsanto (see Materials and Methods). However, it is important to note that these short-term (3-month) rat feeding trials are the only tests conducted on the basis of which regulators determine whether these GM crop/food varieties are as safe to eat as conventional types. Given that these GM crops are potentially eaten by billions of people and animals world-wide, it is important to discuss whether the experimental design, the statistical analyses and interpretations originally undertaken are appropriate and sufficient"

IF BT corn causes the ingestion of possibly toxic levels of the natural budworm killing pesticide in mammals thats one thing, but without ACTUAL examples of critters with BT poisoning the issue remains a myth.

one would think it owuld be fairly straightforward to feed a group of rats nothing but BT corn and a second group of rats regular corn and see which group of rats dies from the anti-budworm toxin. i kinda think it will be NEITHER group.

proving something harmful is fairly simple, proving something "safe" is nearly impossible. how about we try to prove harm rather than demanding that everything be perfectly safe, since even plain ordinary coffee can be declared unsafe if a dumbass pours it on her pussy. cha-ching, wheres my 12 million dollars?
 

OGEvilgenius

Well-Known Member
there was a study done, that particular mouse developed for it's pretty much 100% chance of growing huge nasty tumors for cancer research were fed BT corn (starlink) and shockingly, the mice who were DESIGNED to grow tumors grew tumors.

the wacky thing is those mice were genetically modified specifically to encourage the growth of tumors, and theres a variety of "Onco-mouse" which is practically guaranteed to develop just the tumor you want to study.

you could feed them pure natural organic heirloom grown pesticide free corn in a grass hut on san cristobal island surrounded by magic anti-cancer totems while dosing them with coffee enemas and they will STILL grow tumors.

flawed study is flawed.
Except that the control group didn't have the same outcomes (not even close).

This criticism is weak.
 

DNAprotection

Well-Known Member
...
In current genetic engineering, we chemically select the gene we seek (and, with the polymerase chain reaction we can Xerox a few trillion copies) and then use talented enzymes to rather clumsily duct-tape the selected coding string (ideally the gene, the whole gene and nothing but the gene) and hope that there is one viable, complete cell that expresses the sought trait. If so, success.

But there is potential in this mode of engineering for something easily conceived but not easy to reduce to practice.
Until epigenetics and proteomics taught us that the DNA molecule is not a simple linear data tape, the direct ambition was to make a library of known gene sequences, prepare a combinatorial spread of changed sequences, and pan for gold in all that gravel.
But combinatorial approaches are less desirable when the core chemistry (prepping and inserting maybegenes) remains costly.
So we need to devise a more spare and clever approach. But with molecular genetics not yet out of surprises, that approach is not currently clear.

If we arrive at the point where, probably by a convergence of analytical and computational chemistries, we can predict the consequences of a change in a coding base (in a given gene in a given chromosome of one genotype of a species), then the promise of rational genetic engineering will begin to be realized. But the sheer size of the problem means that it'll be a large, long-term project. cn
cb doesn't your quote above qualify for an argument in favor of some kind of better regulative law(s) at this point in the technologies evolution?
Not saying that such a law(s) should or would ban development of said technologies, but this isn't like marketing a new product where it can sell or not and if it doesn't fly, then the only folks who really lose are the investors etc, this is a deal where if the product fails it could have devastating consequences far more reaching than just the investors etc, so from my perspective a precautionary 'do no harm' approach should be the first concern of anyone that is in that field, let alone all of us who are not.
It would seem to me that unless ones motive was just to gain money and power, if this was someones field they would be the first to be calling for regulation and the strictest protocol because after all after the first 'oil spill' if you will, the whole field gets a bad reputation.
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
cb doesn't your quote above qualify for an argument in favor of some kind of better regulative law(s) at this point in the technologies evolution?
Not saying that such a law(s) should or would ban development of said technologies, but this isn't like marketing a new product where it can sell or not and if it doesn't fly, then the only folks who really lose are the investors etc, this is a deal where if the product fails it could have devastating consequences far more reaching than just the investors etc, so from my perspective a precautionary 'do no harm' approach should be the first concern of anyone that is in that field, let alone all of us who are not.
It would seem to me that unless ones motive was just to gain money and power, if this was someones field they would be the first to be calling for regulation and the strictest protocol because after all after the first 'oil spill' if you will, the whole field gets a bad reputation.
My main concern about pre-emptive lawmaking in this area has to do with who makes laws: legislators advised by attorneys. Both professions are heavily populated by the sorts of person who, in college, would point at my sort and shout Nerd. I forgive them their bigotry, but the lasting lesson is that many many legislators and attorneys add to scientific illiteracy a sort of distaste or contempt for science. This makes it hard to directly assail the illiteracy, which shows in the essential cluelessness in the text of many laws governing scientific and engineering endeavors. I would want to know that the folks pursuing such law are those rarest of birds: attorneys who don't just satisfy their need to understand the topic by reading digests prepared by other humanities majors, and understand not only the technical but esoterically cultural aspects of the science. Someone who speaks authentic Attic Geek, so to speak, and can be trusted to at least see the boundaries between the baby and the bathwater.
If I'm rambling worse than usual, blame the Christmas tree. ;) cn
 

DNAprotection

Well-Known Member
My main concern about pre-emptive lawmaking in this area has to do with who makes laws: legislators advised by attorneys. Both professions are heavily populated by the sorts of person who, in college, would point at my sort and shout Nerd. I forgive them their bigotry, but the lasting lesson is that many many legislators and attorneys add to scientific illiteracy a sort of distaste or contempt for science. This makes it hard to directly assail the illiteracy, which shows in the essential cluelessness in the text of many laws governing scientific and engineering endeavors. I would want to know that the folks pursuing such law are those rarest of birds: attorneys who don't just satisfy their need to understand the topic by reading digests prepared by other humanities majors, and understand not only the technical but esoterically cultural aspects of the science. Someone who speaks authentic Attic Geek, so to speak, and can be trusted to at least see the boundaries between the baby and the bathwater.
If I'm rambling worse than usual, blame the Christmas tree. ;) cn
Making perfect sense to me cb so no need to start blaming trees lol.
I have had similar experience and conclusions about legislators and lawyers etc, would only add that such are also (owned for the most part) unduly influenced by corporate interests which they define as 'national security' interests etc.
Though I am not a lawyer, I have had to play one in court many times in my life and in multiple areas of law which has led me to the belief that the laws need to start coming from the people instead of the corporate delivery room, that's why I'm here discussing this law with you.
I think you or people of your heart and mind should be helping to write this law.
In here we are discussing a naturally born idea that is born of necessity, whereas any 'group' that has any 'hand' or leverage at all, be it this issue or any other is then unduly corporately influenced at the end of the day.
So just like redesigning DNA, the corporate reality influence has its effect on the lawmaking process whether it comes from places they own like executive and legislative branches of gov, or even if it comes from what looks like dissent groups or what I would rather call controlled dissent.
The official reason for prop 37 (just an example) not having been a ban GMO's campaign is because there was 'professional' = corporate polling that said the people would not vote for a ban but were in majority support for labeling so the money chose to go with labeling and in the end counting on polling to 'do the right thing' got prop 37 about as far as counting on polling got Mitt Romney.
Bring something like this to the groups before there is equity built up in the grass roots is kind of like begging to be ignored or rejected or even worse, co-opted.
I just as soon do this here with you and with others who are just still people and then if it gets 'traction' people could go to the groups, legislators etc with some leverage...as in put up or get out of the way.
As for the California part, because 'the people' no longer have influence on the 'elected' officials in congress (as if we the people ever really did) California law becomes key not only for cali, but for the rest of the country in that cali is one of the only states (and certainly the biggest by economy) to have a ballot process that can create a law that cannot be amended by the states legislative or executive branches if passed by a vote of the people. It can however still be challenged in court just like anything else.
So because the corporate powers control both state and federal legislative and executive branches of gov in the USA, it seems to make sense to start where 'the people' have the power = cali ballot initiative process.
and my rambling I will blame on this mornins coffee.
 

desert dude

Well-Known Member


"Golden Rice". Genetically engineered to make beta carotene, a vitamin A precursor. Illegal to grow in California under your proposed law.

Salmon that grow at twice the rate as "natural" salmon. Illegal to grow in California.

California is the largest agricultural state in the US. Outlawing GM crops will severely damage California's already politically damaged economy.

""The world is undergoing dramatic change and it won't be long before people are thinking 'where is my next meal coming from?' Where GM has been proved effective at either increasing yields or else resistant to diseases it should be used in the UK. GM crops need to be looked at one by one. They are not the only solution to world hunger but they are part of it."


The report entitled Reaping the Benefits: Towards a Sustainable Intensification of Global Agriculture, was commissioned in July 2008 in response to a UN report which predicted that world food production needs to double by 2050 to sustain a global population expected to reach nine billion. "
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/6359130/Britain-will-starve-without-GM-crops-says-major-report.html

"How important are GM crops in Sub-Saharan Africa?
Most of the traditional food crops we use in Africa are not benefiting from GM interventions yet. The GM crops used are mostly products from developed nations like maize, soybeans, canola, and cotton.

But things are moving. There is a cassava plant virus that is resistant to conventional treatments. GM varieties that can handle this virus are in a field trial stage and might be available in four to five years.
Cowpeas are another example. They are one of the most important crops in West Africa and an important source of protein. But yields suffer a lot from an insect pest called Maruca. Farmers do a lot of spraying to contain this, but still lose out. Field trials with GM cowpeas that are resistant to the Maruca larvae have just started in Ghana, Nigeria, and Burkina Faso. In two to three years, farmers should be able to use these improved varieties."
http://www.knowledge.allianz.com/environment/food_water/?503/will-gm-crops-feed-africa
 

Samwell Seed Well

Well-Known Member
GMO agriculture is in its infantsy as a science

i don't think that its moral or ethical to just abuse the genetics code without long term studies on sociological and agricultural as well as economic effects for the future

with great power comes great responsibility . .i know cliche . . buts its true . . everyone thought DDT was the godsend as well
 

canndo

Well-Known Member
The question the op essentially asked is should we legislate genetic engineering? What I'm saying is we have a duty to keep legislation off the backs of our scientists. My argument is that with the exception of CN most likely none of us have earned the ticket to an opinion at this level. This is rare air stuff and it's best we trust our scientists and the peer review system to try to keep as much legislation off their backs as possible. So far as I'm aware all of our scientists are human and have as much to fear from an accident as any other of us.

Frankly I think prohibition is a failure, no matter the venue; gun, drugs, science etc...


Your faulty presumption is that scientists work in a vaccuum and that they are never influenced by big business. When they are, they should be regulated just as harshly as business. They are no longer interested in "pure" sicience but in "profit" science. That is the more dangerous kind.
 
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