More on Lincoln ...

ViRedd

New Member
LINCOLN AND HIS LEGACY
by Joe Sobran

At this point it is probably futile to try to
reverse the deification of Abraham Lincoln. Next year, if
I know my countrymen, the bicentennial of his birth will
be marked by stupendously cloying anniversary
observances, all of them affirming, if not his literal
divinity, at least something mighty close to it.

No doubt we will hear from the high priests and
priestesses of the Lincoln cult: Doris Kearns Goodwin,
Garry Wills, Harry V. Jaffa, and all the rest of the
tireless hagiographers of academia, who regularly rate
Honest Abe one of our two greatest presidents, right up
there with Stalin's buddy Franklin D. Roosevelt, father
of the nuclear age and defiler of the U.S. Constitution.
Such, we are told, is the Verdict of History.

But if Lincoln was so great, we must ask why nobody
seems to have realized it while he was still alive. The
abolitionists considered him unprincipled, Southerners
hated him, and most Northerners opposed his war on the
South. Only when the war ended and he was shot did people
begin to transform him into a hero and martyr of the
Union cause. But that cause was badly flawed.

The Declaration of Independence, which Lincoln
always quoted selectively, says that the American
colonies of Great Britain had become "free and
independent states" -- separate states, mind you, not the
monolithic "new nation" he proclaimed at Gettysburg. The
U.S. Constitution refers constantly to the states, but
never to a "nation"; and this is a fact we should ponder.

Alas, it appears that Lincoln seldom thought about
it. For him the Union was somehow prior to its members,
except in his younger days, when, oddly enough, he had
been a passionate advocate of the "most sacred right" of
secession -- in other countries. When and why he changed
his mind, or the reason he never applied this principle
to his native country, we do not know; but Gore Vidal,
among other keen observers, has called attention to this
most striking inconsistency of his career. What he called
"saving the Union" simply meant the denial of this most
sacred right, and he was willing to pay any price in
blood to achieve it.

No wonder his favorite play was MACBETH. He may have
seen himself in the tyrant who had waded too far into a
river of gore to turn back. Far more Americans died in
his war than in any other in our history.

A few books have told the dark story of Lincoln's
suppression of liberty in the North, including the
thousands of arbitrary arrests and hundreds of closings
of newspapers; his war on the South required a war on the
Bill of Rights in the North as well. All in the name of
freedom, of course.

Despite his symbolic importance, most Americans know
little about Lincoln. He was very secretive about himself
and his family, and he remains something of an enigma to
his biographers. One fact is clear, though: he was poorly
educated. He made up for this with his rare rhetorical
and political genius; his eloquence continues to create
the illusion of greatness.

Maybe it would have happened anyway, but since
Lincoln the Constitution has meant not what it says, but
whatever the U.S. Government decides it shall mean. The
very meaning of constitutionality has become entirely
fluid, so that the law itself has become exactly what law
should never be: unpredictable.

Think of the U.S. Supreme Court's notorious 1973
abortion ruling. Nobody before then had ever suggested
that abortion was a constitutional right, but the Court
suddenly discovered that it was, protected somehow by the
Ninth and Fourteenth Amendments. The laws of all 50
states were struck down at a blow, but thanks to Lincoln
the remedy of secession was no longer available to them.

Today's United States of America would be
constitutionally unrecognizable to the authors of the
original Constitution, because today the government has
become the wolf at the door. Do I exaggerate? A
television commercial asks, "Is the IRS ruining your
life?"

Imagine what Washington and Jefferson would have
said about that question! They never dreamed that their
countrymen would live in dread of the government created
to secure their liberty. But that is what has happened to
this country, and much of this is Abraham Lincoln's
 

7xstall

Well-Known Member
since Lincoln the Constitution has meant not what it says, but
whatever the U.S. Government decides it shall mean.

excellent article! i wish all the so called "liberals" would wake up and realize that massive, centralized government is NOT compatible with liberty... idiots.






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medicineman

New Member
since Lincoln the Constitution has meant not what it says, but
whatever the U.S. Government decides it shall mean.

excellent article! i wish all the so called "liberals" would wake up and realize that massive, centralized government is NOT compatible with liberty... idiots.






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You call us idiots, yet your party is the one that advocates killing for profit. For people that claim to be Christians, your party is the most bloodthirsty party ever seen, and yet you scream about the few abortions going on. Does the word Hypocrite mean anything to you? What is this liberty you speak of? The one that only exists for the wealthy? The one that says "buy your way out"? You right wing assholes think that the world should only be for the wealthy and poor people should just disappear. (Bilderbergs 2-3 Billion population numbers) Why are you always crying about liberty? If you have money, you are way more likely to be free. I think it is hypocritical greed and avarice that allows you Bible thumpers to keep up the facade.
 

7xstall

Well-Known Member
You call us idiots, yet your party is the one that advocates killing for profit. For people that claim to be Christians, your party is the most bloodthirsty party ever seen, and yet you scream about the few abortions going on. Does the word Hypocrite mean anything to you? What is this liberty you speak of? The one that only exists for the wealthy? The one that says "buy your way out"? You right wing assholes think that the world should only be for the wealthy and poor people should just disappear. (Bilderbergs 2-3 Billion population numbers) Why are you always crying about liberty? If you have money, you are way more likely to be free. I think it is hypocritical greed and avarice that allows you Bible thumpers to keep up the facade.
my party? lol, the idiots i was refering to are obviously those who think more government is going to solve problems. now, unless you're changing your stand on that, we should agree..

highly centralized government is the enemy of liberty. y/n?




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ViRedd

New Member
since Lincoln the Constitution has meant not what it says, but
whatever the U.S. Government decides it shall mean.

excellent article! i wish all the so called "liberals" would wake up and realize that massive, centralized government is NOT compatible with liberty... idiots.
~lol~ ... How would one go about waking up folks who honestly believe that FDR wasw the Second Coming? :mrgreen:

Vi
 

boooky

Well-Known Member
You call us idiots, yet your party is the one that advocates killing for profit. For people that claim to be Christians, your party is the most bloodthirsty party ever seen, and yet you scream about the few abortions going on. Does the word Hypocrite mean anything to you? What is this liberty you speak of? The one that only exists for the wealthy? The one that says "buy your way out"? You right wing assholes think that the world should only be for the wealthy and poor people should just disappear. (Bilderbergs 2-3 Billion population numbers) Why are you always crying about liberty? If you have money, you are way more likely to be free. I think it is hypocritical greed and avarice that allows you Bible thumpers to keep up the facade.
Thank you holy shit.......I agree 100% to the end great post.:joint:
 

mockingbird131313

Well-Known Member
I have heard a lot of arguements about Abe. From the history I have read, civil war was inevitable. Most of the issues were states rights, and many of those issues still remain. By todays standards, Abe was racist. By the standard of his times, he was very pro Negro; almost anti-white or anti-southern. I do not believe any president, who has ever served, would have done a better job at saving this nation from self destruction. Go Abe go!
 

7xstall

Well-Known Member
Do you want to take Med's last rant on, 7x ... or do you want to do it? :mrgreen:

Vi

since he avoided going into the centralization vs. liberty pigeon hole i'll give it a shot. :)


your party is the one that advocates killing for profit.
"we cannot take any option off the table in sending a clear message to the current leadership of Iran" Hillary Clinton

if we go to war with Iran what motive can there be other than profit for the oil industry? you allege that we went into Iraq to bolster oil profits but Iraq is more of a refinery center than a production center. how can your party justify all this "bomb Iran" rhetoric when it has nothing to do with our security?

your boy obama even said we should ignore Pakistan's borders and bomb them on a whim. wouldn't an expansion of the "war on terror" be a profit driven enterprise, just as you say the initiation of the original war was?


For people that claim to be Christians, your party is the most bloodthirsty party ever seen, and yet you scream about the few abortions going on.
since 1973 more than 43 million babies have been murdered. if your "conscience" is ok calling that a "few" you're a bloodthirsty, savage wild beast, imo. you've lost all your humanity. you'll grand stand about 1 million Iraqis, and i stand beside you on that, but you consider the most defenseless to be nothing more than waste. pathetic.
Does the word Hypocrite mean anything to you?
apparently, we have different understandings of the meaning of this word so i'll just put what Mr. Webster thinks:

1 : a person who puts on a false appearance of virtue or religion
2 : a person who acts in contradiction to his or her stated beliefs or feelings

you falsely claim the virtue of compassion. your religion is that of submission to state. your belief that killing is wrong is applied selectively - at best. you, sir, are the hypocrite.



What is this liberty you speak of? The one that only exists for the wealthy? The one that says "buy your way out"? You right wing assholes think that the world should only be for the wealthy and poor people should just disappear. (Bilderbergs 2-3 Billion population numbers) Why are you always crying about liberty? If you have money, you are way more likely to be free. I think it is hypocritical greed and avarice that allows you Bible thumpers to keep up the facade.
i want liberty for the people who have none. i want liberty for the unborn who are subject to state sanctioned execution for the crime of inconvenience. i want kids on college campuses to be able to arm themselves. i want people to know that evolution is only a theory. i want people to keep more of the money they earn instead of having the federal government rape them into a check to check lifestyle while we finance the most corrupt and evil money worshiping bank system ever devised by human beings. i want people to have the liberty to buy their own insurance by throwing the parasitic lawyers to the curb and wiping out the wasteful corporate federal tax agency called the FDA. i want children in the USA to have playgrounds and more time for recess instead of flat "safe play areas" and test prep sessions. all people deserve liberty.




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medicineman

New Member
kids on college campuses to be able to arm themselves. i want people to know that evolution is only a theory.

Thump-Thump-Thump. Accordint to you thumpers, the earth is only about 6-8 thousand years old. I believe carbon dating has proven this wrong. I'm a theorist that believe this: Intelligent design may be from another planet in the universe that came here and planted the human species in mesopotamia 6-8 thousand years ago, I mean, Why are there still apes? Of course man had to make up a story of how he got here, hence genesis. I do believe in a higher power, and I do believe the Jesus story, all of it. I have had a personal relation with Jesus, I just don't go around spouting off about it and trying to get everyone else to be like me. As far as your students bringing guns to school, I think you have lost your sanity. I am a gun enthusiast and own upwards of 20+ guns, but I don't believe adolescents with their stormy hormones should be carrying guns to school. How many students are killed each year in schools by guns, 100, 200, far less than killed by automobile crashes or suicides. These deaths, although heart rendering and senseless, would be accelerated grossly if students were allowed to bring guns. Instead of a few heated words or a fist fight, some asshole would pull out a gun and the gunfight at the OK corral would be on. Sometimes 7X, I believe you to be confused, an intelligent person, but confused.
 

7xstall

Well-Known Member
if i was never confused then i must not be thinking of very complicated things often enough; confusion is the gymnasium of the mind. :)

well, i hate to inform you of this but carbon dating was proven wrong years ago. if you go past a few hundred years it gets really inaccurate really fast. some scientists use it to go back a couple thousand years but it is only a "guide" and no longer considered solid evidence.

my point with the theory of evolution is that we can't keep indoctrinating kids in schools with state religion. science cares not for the passions of zealots of any persuasion.

with guns i'm talking about college campuses, aka "fish in a barrel" institutions where the people do have some wisdom to counter their youthful naivety and as adults are entitled to all the rights you have. in public schools all the teachers/administrators who want to do so should be able to carry concealed. i detest the notion of a "gun free zone". might as well be a "un-American zone"!

hope that clears the confusion.




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medicineman

New Member
if i was never confused then i must not be thinking of very complicated things often enough; confusion is the gymnasium of the mind. :)

well, i hate to inform you of this but carbon dating was proven wrong years ago. if you go past a few hundred years it gets really inaccurate really fast. some scientists use it to go back a couple thousand years but it is only a "guide" and no longer considered solid evidence.

my point with the theory of evolution is that we can't keep indoctrinating kids in schools with state religion. science cares not for the passions of zealots of any persuasion.

with guns i'm talking about college campuses, aka "fish in a barrel" institutions where the people do have some wisdom to counter their youthful naivety and as adults are entitled to all the rights you have. in public schools all the teachers/administrators who want to do so should be able to carry concealed. i detest the notion of a "gun free zone". might as well be a "un-American zone"!

hope that clears the confusion.




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I'm not confused, but tell me, do you actually believe the earth is only 6-8 thousand years old, then I'll know where you're coming from and your comments will be less credible than ever. Surely you can't take that 7 days creation thing as a literal 7 days?
 

7xstall

Well-Known Member
I'm not confused, but tell me, do you actually believe the earth is only 6-8 thousand years old, then I'll know where you're coming from and your comments will be less credible than ever. Surely you can't take that 7 days creation thing as a literal 7 days?
lol, i don't know exactly how old it is nor do i really care.

i have an even weirder story that i actually believe word for word, med. it's in the new testament and it's all about a man who was born to a virgin. He died on a cross for all our sins and on the third day He rose from the dead and went to His followers who had all lost faith... everyone of them had given up!! upon seeing Him and talking to Him they were deeply inspired, so much so that the year of our calender is based on His perfect life.

i fully believe the story of the man called Jesus and i really don't care what you think about it, med.




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ccodiane

New Member
Jason Lewis, guest host for Limbaugh, today..............

"We fought a great Civil War to allow a group of people to keep the fruits of their labor..."

perfect
 

ccodiane

New Member
Hate to do it, but I must attack the messenger.:mrgreen:

Sobran was named the Constitution Party's vice presidential nominee in 2000, but withdrew from the race.

"The Constitution Party" asserts the rights of states to secede without interference from the Federal Government.

In 2001 and 2003 Sobran spoke at conferences organized by Holocaust denier David Irving.[1] Other speakers from the Holocaust denial movement sharing the podium with Sobran included Paul Fromm, Charles D. Provan, and Mark Weber, director of the Institute for Historical Review.

Sobran was fired from National Review in 1993

Sobran claimed that founder William F. Buckley told him to "stop antagonizing the Zionist crowd", and Buckley accused him of libel and moral incapacitation.

David Irving Irving's status as a historian has been widely discredited[2] as a result of controversy arising from his noted Holocaust denial and misrepresentation of historical sources. During an unsuccessful libel case Irving brought against American historian Deborah Lipstadt and Penguin Books in 1998, an English court found that he is "an active Holocaust denier; that he is antisemitic and racist and that he associates with right-wing extremists who promote neo-Nazism." The judge also ruled that Irving had "for his own ideological reasons persistently and deliberately misrepresented and manipulated historical evidence."

Paul Fromm
, is a Canadian neo-Nazi leader and far-right political activist.

Mark Weber (b. OpenDNS, OpenDNS, October 9, 1951) is president of the Legion for the Survival of Freedom and director of the Institute for Historical Review, an American Holocaust denial[1] organization.
 

medicineman

New Member
lol, i don't know exactly how old it is nor do i really care.

i have an even weirder story that i actually believe word for word, med. it's in the new testament and it's all about a man who was born to a virgin. He died on a cross for all our sins and on the third day He rose from the dead and went to His followers who had all lost faith... everyone of them had given up!! upon seeing Him and talking to Him they were deeply inspired, so much so that the year of our calender is based on His perfect life.

i fully believe the story of the man called Jesus and i really don't care what you think about it, med.

Well alrighty then, I see you believe in fairy tales. I was asking about the 7 day story of creation. Can you give me a straight answer or do we have to believe you believe in fairy tails oh righteous one. Remember, thou shall not judge, eh. I also believe that Jesus existed, there is actually pretty good history about that. I have had a personal experience with the lord, so I don't appreciate your condescending drivel. I just want to know if you believe that fairy tale about the earth being createds in 7 fucking days, and if it was when Adam and Eve were installed in the Garden 6-8 thousand years ago. Come on, commit.
 

medicineman

New Member
Med ...

It was actually six days. God rested on the seventh. :blsmoke:

Vi
So you believe the 6-7 days fairy tale also, figures. I noticed 7X didn't answer, I guess he didn't want to embarass himself. What if a year in Gods time amounted to 700 million years, that would make the earth around 4.2 billion years old, something similar to scientific theory, that may make sense, but to believe the earth was created in 7 days 6-8 thousand years ago, scuuuuse me, i'm gonna call Santa and complain, right along with the tooth fairy, the Easter bunny, and that alien grey that just left my house.
 
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