Multichip LED, Remote Phosphor - Guess who it is.

FranJan

Well-Known Member
Fran: "Large" chip size for me is 42mil Reds and 45mil Blues. That's what's in my COB. Also, you say larger chips absorb more light. Why not use whatever the best size chip is for the blue portion, selectively coat that with phosphor, and then use whatever size chips you want for the rest of the COB? And how do other LED technlogies circumvent this better than COB's do? And, similarly, couldn't you run multiple COB's at lower current and achieve the same efficacy? VanQ's panels that I was talking about: http://www.vanqled.com/ledgrowlight/index.asp?bigclassid=52&class=245 Magnum: http://www.357magled.com/G2-PARmaxx-Parabolic-450w-LED-Grow-Light_p_19.html Those aren't 50W COB's? Not sure what the difference is between an "array" and COB. You're right about the Diamond series, but the rest of this stuff looks like a bunch of COB's to me. I'm not sure if we're speaking the same language, though. You say wait for COB's to reach 90 degree viewing angle. Why?
Sorry BS I can't answer you the way I'd like cause the editor isn't working for me at the moment and I'm too stoned to write the html code instead, but here it goes. Also I'm just trying to sort all this COB/SMD stuff out, not just to argue or anything. There's enough fuzzy knowledge around RIU IMO, don't you think? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Magnum G2s and any Vanq panel are using SMDs, not COBs. If there is more than 1 spectrum on the array/SMD it can't be a COB since you can only run one color/one type of die/chip in it as the article states. Also COB's die/chips are much tighter. SMDs need to be spread out a bit more, since the high power ones use bigger die/chips and cooling is important. Plus you can see the wires connecting the dies/chips on the Vanqs which is another indicator of a SMD. The only proof about the G2 I have though is a reviewer notes it has one green diode, again this can't be a COB. And COBs will always have remote phosphors, SMDs can be designed with or without, though I'm not 100% sure about that. If your chip is running more than 1 spectrum you are using a SMD, also known as an integrated LED. So you aren't running a COB with Reds and Blues. Also COBs and SMDs are both arrays, but I tend to say array for SMDs because that's what a lot of dealers were calling them in the beginning, so my bad. And 90 degrees is for trying to keep the beam on your plant, not on the walls :). COBs aren't there yet in radiometric power IMO, so trying to keep your light on the plant is paramount to me if you want to grow with a COB right now. As Chroni, (What up bro?) has pointed out LED light bulbs are using COBs now and while 120 degrees is great for lighting a room it isn't the best for growing and flowering cannabis when your light source isn't all that. Yet. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You know what's funny Bumping? I was just reading something and it stated that according to Haitz's Law, sometime in 2015 RGB based white diodes will pass phosphor based whites in performance, (Shhh. Don't tell SDS, He got all bent out of shape last time when I stated that RGBs are better than his fuckin precious phosphors. LOL) So basically, you'll probably see the death of remote phosphors around 2016 and questions about what pump to use will probably be moot, but who knows. From what I know all COBs are remote phosphors but the phosphor is in the body of the device, not on the chip so you want the highest efficacy for your chips, with the least amount of cooling necessary. Still you do need a certain level of performance to grow with so ideally you want the smallest chips that produce the most light. Of course this may be cost prohibitive to most, so compromises need to be made. But then again this is just all talking till companies start putting out MCOBs and maybe phosphors will still have a place in our future. Peace.
 

CaliJoe

Member
So basically, you'll probably see the death of remote phosphors around 2016 and questions about what pump to use will probably be moot, but who knows. From what I know all COBs are remote phosphors but the phosphor is in the body of the device, not on the chip so you want the highest efficacy for your chips, with the least amount of cooling necessary. Still you do need a certain level of performance to grow with so ideally you want the smallest chips that produce the most light. Of course this may be cost prohibitive to most, so compromises need to be made. But then again this is just all talking till companies start putting out MCOBs and maybe phosphors will still have a place in our future. Peace.
From what I know about LEDs, there are a very limited amount of phosphors that can be used on the chip, making spectral output limiting. Remote phosphors allow for a much larger range of spectral output. Correct me if I am wrong.
 

FranJan

Well-Known Member
How many shades/colors can a RGB monitor produce with just three elements? I forgot but it's not a small number. Plus you have direct control over each chip. Less heat, less production costs once efficiency is there. Then again who knows where it will go? Someone may just discover a better way of making phosphor based LEDs with even better phosphors and bang everything I just said and read will be false. Still you have much better color control over an RGB element than you do phosphors. It's all pros and cons but phosphors add another step to the process of producing light and if it can be eliminated, especially the heat they generate from the conversion, then your saving money and time, which is what manufacturers want. If you really want to see what RGB whites can do check out film making sites. They are really going to drive RGB LED tech. I can't wait to dim my greens when I flip my plants or dim my blues during flowering. But yeah remote phosphors, or even phosphor based tech will probably be around longer than I stated.
 

CaliJoe

Member
Honestly, I think it is all a moot point anyway. By 2020 we will all just tape a sheet of OLED paper to a board and put it above the plants and then we can mimic anything we want, true skies, sun moving across, clouds, moon, stars, etc. OLEDs are almost there now. The intensity is almost to the point it can grow things, but today they are still extremely expensive ($24,000 for an 80" OLED TV). They have been making huge leaps in intensity in the last couple years.
 

Bumping Spheda

Well-Known Member
Fran:
Oh... Well then SMD's are the future, not COB's! :cuss: Thanks for the clarification.

RGB's will never be the best for growing, though, right? They'll still use narrow band dice and one of the big benefits of using White LED's over Red/Blue is the broader spectrum coverage, I thought.

I've got a 30W RGB LED and it uses:
Red: 620 - 630nm
Green: 520-530nm
Blue: 460-470nm

I've thought about giving it a heat sink and wiring up just the Red and Blue to like a 20W driver. It'd allow me to move the 50W Warm White in my veg tent over to flower.


BS, be careful directly cooling the heat sinks, a few inches above, no problem, but directly through could cause diodes to struggle to reach nominal temps.
Wait, what? I though LED's increased in efficiency at low temps, even past freezing. You think there's a problem if my heat sink is cool (below ambient)?
 

FranJan

Well-Known Member
COBs are the near future, they just need to catch up a bit. But whatever, here's the future today. Fuckin hell, you just can't make any damn statements anymore without some wiseass inventing the next big thing while you're asleep. LOL. Courtesy of LED Inside

http://www.ledinside.com/products/2013/8/genesis_photonics_launches_3d_cob



News Source:
Genesis Photonics




Genesis Photonics’ (GPI) 3D Chip On Board (COB) successfully integrates blue LED components with a variety of remote phosphors. Compared to the average COB product, 3D COB has better lighting quality and has the advantages of greatly reducing lighting system costs, and expanding the market for new lighting applications. Moreover, using a combination of high powered blue LED components with patented remote phosphor offers lighting fixture manufacturers additional patent protection.

GPI’s 3D COB integrated solution can be used with dimensional lighting or plane lighting remote phosphor solutions. Compared to single or group LED packages, where phosphor is placed very close to the die and receives near range concentrated light source stimulation, the remote phosphor used in 3D COB are is located further away from the die and excited by long range light source. The advantages provided by such an arrangement include excellent lumen maintenance, small differences in hot-cold factor, and slight color shifts. In addition, by applying remote phosphors in GPI’s high luminous efficacy Match LED, it is also able to get improved color uniformity and diverse color temperature options. For luminarie manufacturers, these technological advantages open up a lot of opportunities for luminaire manufacturers to create more flexible light fixture designs.


Comparison of Light Source Solutions3D COBNormal COB
Color UniformityExtremely goodAverage
Lumen MaintenanceExcellent.
Small differences in hot-cold factor.
Good
Hot-cold FactorSlightlyNormal
Design OptionsCan be matched with many remote phosphor stimulation solutions.Phosphor painted on the package interior
Luminaire design/ components usedFlexible with low inventory risks.Standard specifications that are prone to inventory risks with changes in client demand.

Standard specifications can cause inventory risks when client demand changes. GPI’s 3D COB’s core light source employs the patented blue light Match LED component, a technology developed by the company. The component is constructed on the foundation of AT chips, and includes the following features: wire-bond free, compact arrangement, low thermal resistance, and high light efficiency. From the AT die, MATCH LED component, to the 3D COB light source solution, GPI has been cooperating with top international phosphor brands, to provide sophisticated light efficiency levels and patent protection. This also helped improve luminaries’ clients’ opportunities of entering the global market. Currently, GPI’s 3D COB is being introduced to lighting manufacturers in the U.S., Japan, Europe and China. The company is currently cooperating with a top global distributor to promote and sell 3D COBs.
Photo references: Successful application of Genesis Photonics 3D COB solution in candle lamps, bulbs, downlights, and bay lights.

Picture 1: A successful 3D COB candle light that mimics real flameworks effects.

Picture 2: A successful case of 3D COB bulb emitting omnidirectional light.

Picture 3: A 3D COB down light that offers a variety of remote phosphor solutions for luminaire manufacturers to choose from.

Picture 4: A successful 3D COB bay light that gives excellent color uniformity, and equipped with excellent hot-cold factor.
Genesis Photonics
No. 5, Dali Third Rd., Tainan Science Park, Tainan, 74144, Taiwan
 

PetFlora

Well-Known Member
Fran:
Oh... Well then SMD's are the future, not COB's! :cuss: Thanks for the clarification.

RGB's will never be the best for growing, though, right? They'll still use narrow band dice and one of the big benefits of using White LED's over Red/Blue is the broader spectrum coverage, I thought.

I've got a 30W RGB LED and it uses:
Red: 620 - 630nm
Green: 520-530nm
Blue: 460-470nm

I've thought about giving it a heat sink and wiring up just the Red and Blue to like a 20W driver. It'd allow me to move the 50W Warm White in my veg tent over to flower.



Wait, what? I though LED's increased in efficiency at low temps, even past freezing. You think there's a problem if my heat sink is cool (below ambient)?
In the words of the infamous Donald Rumsfeld "We know what we know, and we don't know what we don't know"

I'm winging my answer, but it seems like some heat is necessary to promote growth (~80-85*s for veg & ~ 75-70*s for flower), so how much you cool them will depend on ambient temps

In the end there is more than one way to utilize leds. Along as the tech minimizes holes, such that plant development is not compromised, I'm ok with it. When diodes are too far apart (or run in parallel instead of staggered rows) they create dark spots (holes) in the coverage.

One thing for sure, no way I'm spending big bucks on current commercial offerings, BUT, clearly A51, Apache, Astirgrows... lights work extremely well

Heading out for a motorcycle ride before it gets too hot.

Later dudes

 

Bumping Spheda

Well-Known Member
Duuuuuude, wtf. :wall: I found an ant and a little spider (one of the little jumpers you find on the side of your house) in my veg tent today! They must have come through the 10" exhaust duct from my window AC that's hooked up to the attic.

Anyone have experience with these?
http://www.hydrogalaxy.com/climate-control/bug-screen-w-active-carbon-insert-10in/

I guess it's also got activated carbon in it so that can't hurt with keeping myself stealthy. I'm more wondering if people noticed decreased air flow, or if bugs still got in (if so what kinds), etc. Please, let me know, guys. If I don't get a response soon I'm just gonna go for it because seriously an ant and a spider are freaking me out right now, I do not want to have to deal with this shit.

Dude, fuck pests. They make me so fucking angry...
 

CaliJoe

Member
Duuuuuude, wtf. :wall: I found an ant and a little spider (one of the little jumpers you find on the side of your house) in my veg tent today! They must have come through the 10" exhaust duct from my window AC that's hooked up to the attic.

Anyone have experience with these?
http://www.hydrogalaxy.com/climate-control/bug-screen-w-active-carbon-insert-10in/

I guess it's also got activated carbon in it so that can't hurt with keeping myself stealthy. I'm more wondering if people noticed decreased air flow, or if bugs still got in (if so what kinds), etc. Please, let me know, guys. If I don't get a response soon I'm just gonna go for it because seriously an ant and a spider are freaking me out right now, I do not want to have to deal with this shit.

Dude, fuck pests. They make me so fucking angry...
You can make those things much cheaper by just going to your local pet store/wal-mart, picking up some aquarium filter floss (blue+white kind, usually $5 a bag), and a small container of carbon. Cut a rectangle piece, pour carbon on 1/2, fold it over, and tape it to the vent. Probably cost you $10 and you can make a dozen of those filters. Any restriction will reduce air flow, but it will be very minimal.
 

Bumping Spheda

Well-Known Member
Hey, thanks for the info. I've got some 4x8 mesh coconut fiber charcoal already so that'd be "free." I wonder if the charcoal will restrict air flow too much, though, it definitely restricted the air flow of the Panasonic Whisper ceiling fan I've been using for extraction. Hrmmm.
 

The BLaKsmith

Active Member
Pretty cool, I just found this and had to post it somewhere.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/10W-20W-30W-50W-Blue-554nm-Red-660nm-Hydroponic-Plant-Flood-LED-Grow-Lights-/251248529710?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&var=&hash=item3a7f94512e

Typo in the auction title, it says lower in the description 445nm Blue. Yea, it's $2/W, but how cool are these, right? If the prices get any lower it'll be hard to keep me away, I think. Judging from the pics in another thread these have AMPLE amounts of Red in them. Mixing Warm White flood lights in a 1:1 ratio with these would be kinda crazy awesome if you ask me.
I got the 10w one a few weeks ago, seems well built can't say much for how well it works but everything is still growing so can't be bad. I plan on getting a couple of the 20/30w ones for side lighting
 

Bumping Spheda

Well-Known Member
Cool. You've got just the 10W flood, or are you using it as supplemental? I think mixing these Red/Blue floods with some Warm White floods could be really cool actually. If you're interested, check out your plants grown under these R/B floods in natural lighting and take some photos. I guarantee if you cut some White floods in there next grow even clones of the same plant will be noticeably lighter green and less "waxy" in texture. A little Green/Yellow/Orange light should go a long way as far as what ?genes?...?hormones? your girls wanna express.


Oh, and for everyone else, the heat sink has arrived and everything is curing right now. Update soon on the Cree transformation project.
 

Bumping Spheda

Well-Known Member
Alright. Well I lapped the heat sink and straightened out the metal core PCB as much as possible. As you can see there are tiny gaps between the heat sink and PCB.
qf1r.jpg

I applied the thermal plaster and found some pieces of wood to sit on either side of the LED's as it cured.
k4dh.jpg

Then I put a piece of plywood on top of those two pieces and placed a 10lb weight on top of that very carefully. I left the LED's on for a few minutes to warm the plaster up and help it spread evenly with no bubbles. The weight also made the LED sit nearly perfectly flush with the heat sink.
tdth.jpg

Later, while the plaster was curing still, but when it was relatively firm I took it inside and put some JB weld over the wires to keep them from shorting out and act as strain relief. I also put a bit of JB Weld around the metal core PCB to secure it more to the heat sink just in case I have a derp moment later in this spot light's life. JB Weld also has rather impressive thermal transfer characteristics so it helps a tiny bit. I left the light on for a few hours as the JB Weld cured. I was afraid how warm the heat sink was getting. I put in my flower tent (veg room is asleep) once the JB Weld was hard enough and the heat sink is no longer getting warm. I realized the higher temps were from having the heat sink upside down on my bed which was trapping heat in. The heat sink doesn't even feel warmer than ambient now that it's in the tent with the little bit of air movement it sees from fans and what not.

Well here she is in action.
fkwl.jpg
Can't really see any difference, the 100W RP spot light overpowers it.

Cost of mod:
$13 for Cree bulb
$7.50 for the heat sink
I had the wires, power chord, PlastiDip, thermal plaster and JB Weld lying around.
Total: ~$20.50 ($7.50 too much, I'm sure some would say, but I like all the light being directed towards my plants!)

Looks pretty bright to me. I'm sure Misty and her clones will love it.
:peace:
 

jimjim2609

Well-Known Member
:o:hug:
Sick plant. So that's ~100W total? Would love to know final weight once she's done.
I think it works out at about 91W. Total of 49 3w leds run at 620mA (49x3x0.62=91.14). I'm excited to see how she goes too. I'm just not sure if all the hairs have to turn brown before its ready or whether they just stay white and i should go on the colour of the trichs?
 

caretak3r

Well-Known Member
I've been away for awhile so I'm way behind on what's new around here. I just wanted to say I've been really impressed with my 24x1W panels by Merry for the cost and lack of heat. In no way am I totally dialed in or anything - still working out kinks in my setup and cabinet, but I pulled about 25grams from 2 colas that were under ~48W of lights (2 panels) - There was plenty of room for more plant, it was just the fact that my clones were so tiny when they went in 12/12 they only put off 1 each. I haven't even gotten around to adding my 50W XPG floods or anything fun like that. I have more lights/stuff than time and energy to put into it lately. I did totally redo my veg cab with 1 50W XPG CW flood and the plants are loving it.
 
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