My New Double Decker Aero Design, Please Critique

Please critique my design. +rep for any decent input.

This is my plan for a new aeroponic system that I'm soon going to be building.

It is two stories, being retrofitted into an existing grow box.

The boxes are going to be the "Tough Boxes" that you can see in SOGs journal.

All white lines are 3/4" PVC.

This will be adapted to 1/2" black poly tubing to protrude through the reservoirs and the misters threaded into it.

I'll push this through a grommet on each side of the res to secure and seal it.

Roots will hang suspended from 3" net pots w/ hydroton.

I'm considering leaving 2-3" of water below the drain with a couple air stones as a safeguard incase of pump failure.

I don't know if individual ball valves to control a consistent spray would be necessary or not.

I'm also undecided about the pump. The total head from the pump to the top misters will be about 6 - 6 1/2'. There will likely be a total of 24 180' and 12 360' sprayers. I'm thinking 900GPH with a bypass to handle overflow.

The nutrient will circulate up through the sprayers and then back down through the drain tubes. I'll likely run the sprayers on a recycling timer.


For the return, I'm considering 1 1/2" or 1 1/4" PVC.
I will install this through a grommet for a good seal and easy removal.

Quick disconnects (john guest fittings) or unions will be used to make each individual res removable.

Notice the 3rd reservoir. This will house the bulk of the nutrient solution as well as the pump and the bypass. It will be housed externally from the box. This will help temps and make nutrient and ph adjustments easy and feasible even during lights out.

In addition, I'll install another bypass off of the main upright line. I'll use this to draw samples for ph and tds testing and I'll connect a garden hose fitting for easy draining.

I'll probably let temps dictate whether or not to install a chiller, or maybe I'll just install one anyway to ensure consistent temps.

I believe I've decided on one 3', 6 bulb T5 for each level.

I'm undecided whether to use a 4" or 6" centrifugal fan. It should only be about 40 cubic foot, but I use intake filters and exhaust filters, so there is some loss.

I'll clone directly into this box. I'll root & veg to about 12" tall, and then switch to flowering while still in this box. At this point I will lollypop and then keep strong blue light from the T5s on these to reduce stretch during these crucial weeks. After probably 2 weeks, they will get one more trim, then off to the HPS flowering box.

This brings me to one last concern. The box is about 14" tall. That leaves quite a bit of room for roots to hang. I think that if I allow them the proper drying out time, they won't ball up too bad and removing them for transfer should be pretty easy, but the plants will be pretty big at this stage and I'm not sure how much root mass to expect.

So, what do you all think? Did I miss anything?

What do you think about the pump sizing?
Sprayer count?
Ball valves to control flow?
3/4" PVC or 1/2" PVC for feeds and manifolds?
1 1/2" or 1 1/4" PVC for drain?
4" or 6" exhaust fan?
Do you think I'll be able to fit the net cups/ roots back through for transfer?

there are a bunch of things i can comment about
I'm not sure they will all be in place since I'm not familiar with your exact situation
why r you running 3 res for 2 systems?
unless you place a pressure gauge on the lines with the valves
you will not be able to tell the pressure on the line!


get two small pump instead, you will have redundancy this way
if the pump goes it will not lose both sites!

one more thing I'm missing, is your return to main res!!!
i see it being pushed up with the pump, hows it getting back to main reservoir ???

BTW: search functionality has been restored to the site, no need to use google anymore

ebay has a 1560gph for $50, the seller is named "muca" this pumps are very good,i think you will need it to get decent mist on the second level, wont need control valves, you dont have a drain pipe back to the rez, but thats a simple fix im sure you forgot that in your sketch,i like the idea of running the plumbing through the wall to keep the rez away from that heat, but to be perfectly honest with you, ditch the rubbermaid with the pots in it, you can do way more damage with the stinkbud method

as for PVC sizes, i just love 1/2", i know most use 1in and 3/4"

morrisgreenberg said:

as for PVC sizes, i just love 1/2", i know most use 1in and 3/4"

Click to expand...

i don't see the benefit in running the manifold at 3/4"
this will require building up more pressure with a bigger pump
stay with the 1/2" lines for spray lines and manifold
you still deliver the same amount of water through a 3/4 or 1/2
the question is how much pressure you will need to run them properly
id even recommend to go even lower the 1/2" if you can find piping that will work

Thank you both for your input.

Yes, the drain is not shown as the picture was already pretty rough and it started getting really cluttered.
I'm not sure if I should use 1 1/2" PVC, 1 1/4" PVC, or even something smaller?

With your advice, I'll definitely go to smaller plumbing. Thanks.

I'm concerned that because of the additional head to the top box, that without restriction, the bottom will spray well, but the top will be much weaker. Maybe just one ball valve on the feed to the bottom manifold?

The reason I am using the tall box vs. a tube, is because I already know from my aeroflo that by the time these plants will be ready to transfer, the roots will be intertangled if they are in a tube. I'm hoping that because they grow straight down, that it will be easy to remove them. I was wondering if anybody had any experience with this.
Plus, it would be a bitch to run the tubes through the walls, though I was initially considering this.

This also basically explains why 3 res's. The two in the box are really just rhizospheres. I'm thinking about leaving a little water in them as a safeguard, but there primary purpose is as a chamber to mist the hanging roots in. The 3rd exterior res will hold the bulk of the nutrient solution.
SOG, it's basically like one of your units, except two of the same tough boxes will serve the function of your fence post.

Thanks again, and any other comments are welcome.

Usually the fan's power is compromised by about 1/3 its original CFM with filtering, HEPA or charcoal. Therefore I'd go with the larger 6" centrifugal on account of the loss.

I know your diagram's not scale, so how far apart are you planning on spacing the hydroton pots in the T5 veg box? I don't think there should be too much root entanglement if they're only going to get to be 12" tall before flip, but if you let them co-mingle at the bottom of the Tough Box for to long and some damage is sure to be incurred.

I agree with SOG's two pump solution: 1) it's always better safe than sorry, and the store's not open on Sundays at midnight to save you from potential disaster. 2) this might up the Res temp enough to justify chillers, but it'll also nullify the disparity in head pressure with the top and bottom boxes you're concerned about.

Schematic question for you - will the top box be directly over the bottom box and its T5? What are the dimensions you're dealing with?

AeroKing said:

I'm concerned that because of the additional head to the top box, that without restriction, the bottom will spray well, but the top will be much weaker.

Click to expand...

you can calculate the pressure buildup in the pipes
sift through my posts there should be a link to download it
or experiment with this design
try to route your top feed in a way the the solution will have to go through and pressurize the portion first
for example:
run the top line first so the solution enters on one side on the top
and travels through it before it get to drop down
this will ensure the pressure is being built from the top instead of the bottom

Old Frog said:

Usually the fan's power is compromised by about 1/3 its original CFM with filtering, HEPA or charcoal. Therefore I'd go with the larger 6" centrifugal on account of the loss.

Click to expand...

Agreed. I'll go with the 6". Thank You +rep

Old Frog said:

I know your diagram's not scale, so how far apart are you planning on spacing the hydroton pots in the T5 veg box? I don't think there should be too much root entanglement if they're only going to get to be 12" tall before flip, but if you let them co-mingle at the bottom of the Tough Box for to long and some damage is sure to be incurred.

Click to expand...

They will be pretty close. The worry of entanglement was directed at the suggestion to use tubes instead of tubs. My concern is fitting the root ball out of the 2 7/8" hole when I go to move the cups into my other system. I'm hoping that because the roots hang vertical, that it won't be an issue.

Old Frog said:

I agree with SOG's two pump solution: 1) it's always better safe than sorry, and the store's not open on Sundays at midnight to save you from potential disaster. 2) this might up the Res temp enough to justify chillers, but it'll also nullify the disparity in head pressure with the top and bottom boxes you're concerned about.

Click to expand...

I'd thought about that to. The benefits are substantial... I guess I kind of have a feeling that if 1 box shits out, I'm fucked anyway. I still may take your advice on that. You've definitely got me thinking about it.

Old Frog said:

Schematic question for you - will the top box be directly over the bottom box and its T5? What are the dimensions you're dealing with?

Click to expand...

Yes:
Cieling
T5
Plants
Res
Shelf
T5
Plants
Res
Floor
Total height is just over 6', so about 3' vertical height in each chamber.

For ventilation, I'll probably just drill ports through the shelf and install the intake at the bottom, fan at the top.

SOG said:

you can calculate the pressure buildup in the pipes
sift through my posts there should be a link to download it
or experiment with this design
try to route your top feed in a way the the solution will have to go through and pressurize the portion first
for example:
run the top line first so the solution enters on one side on the top
and travels through it before it get to drop down
this will ensure the pressure is being built from the top instead of the bottom

Click to expand...

That is fucking genius. Definitely what I'll do if I stick with one pump.
As far as calculating it, I don't like math. It's more likely I'll just buy a pump that is overkill and run it with a bypass. Thanks again, SOG.

That is fucking genius. Definitely what I'll do if I stick with one pump.


As far as calculating it, I don't like math. It's more likely I'll just buy a pump that is overkill and run it with a bypass. Thanks again, SOG.

Click to expand...

hey King i forgot to mention in my previous post
i posted a link to a program called Pipe Flow Expert
Software for the Design of Pipe Networks, which will calc everything for you




another little tip for you
don't glue the pipes when you build your manifold
i found if you cut your pipes at a straight line (i used a miter saw),
they will snug very tightly when pushed together,
enough to hold the sealed pressure, without having anything permanently glowed
perfect for testing before you close it down
its very hard to pull back out,
still better then re cutting and glowing again cause you need it an inch shorter etc...

Thanks again, SOG.
So you're saying not to glue for the prototype phase, but then once everything is tested then glue it for permanent install?

Thanks for that link. I think I've decided to go with 1/2" PVC and use the "up and over" technique you'd suggested.

I've decided to use only one pump. If one tray fails, the other is worthless to me anyway.

Right now, the only safeguard I'll provide is 2" of nutrient solution in the bottom of the chambers with a micro-pore air diffuser. My operation's centralized Air Pump is protected from power loss. I hope the splashing from the bubbles will hold them for a day or so if I lose power or pump.

I may later split the side spraylines on one pump and the middle spraylines on another, but for now simplification rules - and you've helped me with that a lot!

One thing that I'm starting to re-think, though is converting to black poly tubing.

I really want the spray lines to be removable from the chambers. The plugs for the poly tube are the same OD as the tubing, so I could install a plug and still be able to slide it out.
With PVC, the cap is bigger than the OD of the pipe.

What I'm thinking about is using the John Guest "push in" fittings or the PVC compression "repair couplers" where they connect to the manifold, so the spray lines can be disconnected from the manifold and then pulled out through the other side.

Again, just looking to simplify and not having to adapt to poly tubing is appealing.

I have 2 concerns.
The repair couplers are big and bulky - I'm not sure if they'll fit.
I don't know if 1/2" PVC pipe will work with the push in fittings as I believe they are designed for tubing sizes.
The push in fittings are made of brass. I don't see many people using brass connectors in hydro systems. I'm not sure if this is because of cost or if it can leach chemicals into the solution. hmmm....

AeroKing said:

Thanks again, SOG.
So you're saying not to glue for the prototype phase, but then once everything is tested then glue it for permanent install?

Thanks for that link. I think I've decided to go with 1/2" PVC and use the "up and over" technique you'd suggested.

I've decided to use only one pump. If one tray fails, the other is worthless to me anyway.

Right now, the only safeguard I'll provide is 2" of nutrient solution in the bottom of the chambers with a micro-pore air diffuser. My operation's centralized Air Pump is protected from power loss. I hope the splashing from the bubbles will hold them for a day or so if I lose power or pump.

I may later split the side spraylines on one pump and the middle spraylines on another, but for now simplification rules - and you've helped me with that a lot!

One thing that I'm starting to re-think, though is converting to black poly tubing.

I really want the spray lines to be removable from the chambers. The plugs for the poly tube are the same OD as the tubing, so I could install a plug and still be able to slide it out.
With PVC, the cap is bigger than the OD of the pipe.

What I'm thinking about is using the John Guest "push in" fittings or the PVC compression "repair couplers" where they connect to the manifold, so the spray lines can be disconnected from the manifold and then pulled out through the other side.

Again, just looking to simplify and not having to adapt to poly tubing is appealing.

I have 2 concerns.
The repair couplers are big and bulky - I'm not sure if they'll fit.
I don't know if 1/2" PVC pipe will work with the push in fittings as I believe they are designed for tubing sizes.
The push in fittings are made of brass. I don't see many people using brass connectors in hydro systems. I'm not sure if this is because of cost or if it can leach chemicals into the solution. hmmm....

Click to expand...

i think part of simplifying your build will be to use a smaller pump
the 900gph is an overkill, your already messing with pressure dropping
with 900gph running through 1/4" i don't know where...
but something will give, in the form of joints or pipes cracking
its to much pressure in a very short distance
unless your ruining somewhere around 40 misters,
I'm having a hard time justifying a 900gph with all the extra mess it brings to the table

Estimating 36 total sprayers. 1/2 PVC, no 1/4"??? I'm hoping the bypass will take care of excess pressure and I'll kick myself if I buy a pump that's inadequate. Head to the first manifold is about 4' from the pump. Do you still think I should get a smaller pump and if so, which size?

AeroKing said:

Estimating 36 total sprayers. 1/2 PVC, no 1/4"??? I'm hoping the bypass will take care of excess pressure and I'll kick myself if I buy a pump that's inadequate. Head to the first manifold is about 4' from the pump. Do you still think I should get a smaller pump and if so, which size?

Click to expand...

I'd say the 633GPH should be enough to run up to 40 misters
and all should be smooth without dropping pressure, etc...
its best is to test it out, once your happy with the performance, make it permanent

I won't buy those crappy sunleaves pumps anymore. I broke the little plastic holder tabs off of the impeller cap on my last one trying to get it off. Cheap plastic piece of shit.I can't get a new one, so the pump is junk. So, maybe a 700GPH pro-pump? The 500GPH version drops to about 325 GPH at 4', so the 700 should probably do about 500GPH at 4'. Think that'd be adequate?

AeroKing said:

I won't buy those crappy sunleaves pumps anymore. I broke the little plastic holder tabs off of the impeller cap on my last one trying to get it off. Cheap plastic piece of shit.I can't get a new one, so the pump is junk. So, maybe a 700GPH pro-pump? The 500GPH version drops to about 325 GPH at 4', so the 700 should probably do about 500GPH at 4'. Think that'd be adequate?

Click to expand...

you should calc a min of 15gph and no more then 20gph per mister Clicky

Gotcha, thanks again.

Thanks for the link to your grow.
The only recommendation I have is to forget the hydroton
and use neoprene.
I hope you post some pictures.

Earl said:

Thanks for the link to your grow.
The only recommendation I have is to forget the hydroton
and use neoprene.
I hope you post some pictures.

Click to expand...

Earl, thanks for stopping in!

I read in one of your threads that you use the neoprene collars only.

I'm going to lollypop them and they will need to be transfered into a different system at about 12".
I'm worried that I'll knock one loose and damage the roots while fucking with them.
Are they really solid? Do you think I'd be OK with just the neoprene, Earl?

I don't post journals. Security is my biggest concern. If they lower the penalties in my state, then I will. I'll post pictures of the system when it's done, either way.

Thanks, Earl.