MY True HP Aero Plug&Play Pods

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fatman7574

fatman7574

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Essex said:
Fatman, how does this compare to what u got for MJ nute uptake profile?

Veg,
MAJOR ELEMENTS, Three different sets of tissue samples: The first two are Indica and the third an Indica dominant. The samples were a mix of both bract and bud leaf tissue. Total THC: 22.9, 21.8 and 20.8
Total Nitrogen (N) 4.6%...........3.25.....4.2......4.4
Total Phosphorus (P) 1.5%.......0.35....0.50....0.65
Total Potassium (k) 3.6%.........2.55....3.75....3.00
SECONDARY ELEMENTS,
Total Magnesium (Mg) 1%........0.25....0.50....0.50
Total Calcium (Ca) 4.7%..........2.45....3.45....3.10
Total Sulphur (S) 4.2%............0.25....0.25....0.45

Flower,
MAJOR ELEMENTS,
Total Nitrogen (N) 1.2%...........3.75....4.25....3.60
Total Phosphorus (P) 1.3%.......0.75....0.90....0.75
Total Potassium (k) 2.6%.........4.1.....4.5......4.3
SECONDARY ELEMENTS,
Total Magnesium (Mg) 1%........0.40....0.50....0.50
Total Calcium (Ca) 3.8%..........1.40....1.30....1.25
Total Sulphur (S) 3.2%............0.30....0.35....0.35

As you can see they add a butt load of extra nutrients for buffering in recirculatory reservoirs. Would I use tissue analysis ratios for a ratio for recirculatury nutrients resviors? NO. I would use closer to that you posted. I would use the tissue samples analysis ratios to formulate drain to waste. I am finding I need a bit more Phosphorus than the tissue samples would indicate. I believe that is coming from some phosphorus precipitation on calcium bicarbonate precipitation caused by long term storage of diluted nutrients in a non airtight storage container at temps close to 100 degrees F where the CO2 levels are over 1500 ppm.

Am I close yet?

Cant find any info out there and what is out there seems incomplete?
Three Different sets of tissue samples: The first two are Indica and the third an Indica dominant. The samples were a mix of both bract and bud leaf tissue. They were run in a University Lab so I know they are accuratte.

If you have a clone strain you like and want to develop a nutrient for so as to optimize growth here is a good ecomomical place to have tissue samples tested. http://www.mmilabs.com/tissue.html Set it up where you just email them to get the lab results, rather than them mailing you the results. They do not care what the sample is as long as you do not tell them it is mj. Most people just say an ornamental house plant. It is about $50 to test for Total Nitrogen, Phosphorus, Potassium, Calcium, Magnesium, Total Sulfur, Boron, Copper, Zinc, Iron, Manganese and Molybdenum. That is a very god price for 12 tests.


Have u got any books ya recomend? or links?
Three Books: http://www.mmilabs.com/mmi_publishing.html Especially the Plant Analysis Handbook II.

Thanks man, ya the only person I have found that seems to be in the know!
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There typically isreally is not a huge variation in mj tissue samples except in the THC department. However, plant nutrient uptake can be up to about 35% or even 50% for some straiduring veg growth so idealizing a nutrient for a particular strain can make a huge difference in quality and yield and particularly in the time required for growth.
 
Essex

Essex

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fatman u are a god!!! you have the best info ive seen! that mix aint what "they" made thats just my organic tea I couldent find any calcium or sulphur uptake so I had only the n-p-k-Mg to work it out to, it is for a organic recirculatury hydro system. athough now Im thinking the sulphur is to high to be usefull and will have to adjust my ingredients.

I was planing for testing the nutes in a TAG, would this be ok? as then I dont have to post weed :-) that link is cheap as chips m8, thanks
I thought that a nute designed for a particular strain would be rather beneficial, and im also guessin by adjusting ratios could be brought to finish faster?
what do you think happens to uptake in the first 2 weeks of flower? ive seen some strange uptake stats for this bit reported and was thinking it needs its own mix?

Ill have a go at them books m8! thanks, now to get my head around chelating, lol

thanks again! :-)
 
fatman7574

fatman7574

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Sulfur ratios can very a great deal without causing problems. Typically your atlkin only a need for a ratio of 0.6 to 1.0 in comparison to Phosphorus. Where thing sget skewed is in recirculating reservoirs. There are huge amounts of playing with high EC and hugh macro and secondary nutreints and low trace ni utrients to try to compensate for recirculating resrvoirs. None of the manipulations work well. However it is hard to convince peole who are already produing mj that costs to much to switch to system where they can grow drain to waste. So manafacturers still keep producing formulations and supplements for use in recirculatory su sytems without ever trying to explain to people what is going on in their reservoirs. Even Fat MiKie Of AN with his Underground Growers site never really tells peple what is really going on. He just writes about palny ts tsissues and plant uptakes but avoids the issues of bufferings that are the reason g fotr all the nutrients above and beyond what plants store in their tissues.
 
Essex

Essex

Active Member
wont changin a huge recirculating rez a lot overcome probs and avoid needed manipulations? this MJ only cost a lot to produce if ya use fat mike n his $3000 nute system, I dont know why I wouldnt trust him to give good advise, lol. I wish more people was as helpfull as u :-)
 
fatman7574

fatman7574

New Member
Essex said:
wont changin a huge recirculating rez a lot overcome probs and avoid needed manipulations? this MJ only cost a lot to produce if ya use fat mike n his $3000 nute system, I dont know why I wouldnt trust him to give good advise, lol. I wish more people was as helpfull as u :-)
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Your cost to produce mj should be less that about $2.00 (and that is a very high cost) a gram or you need to stop growing until you have studied up on the subject abit more.

For an example NASA for its smallest NFT system used a 6 " wide flat trough for a plant that has almost no roots (sweet potato), but growers of mj wonder why they are having problems with mj plants that have larger root masses in 4" wide troughs. A single layer of roots with the potatoes that do not even cover the tube bottom versus a thick matt of roots covering the full tube bottom if not the full tube. Hell the system was develped for leaf lettuce plants. Aero was designed for a deep chamber or tents where the roots had 3 or 4 foot before reaching the bottom. Duh, mj growers wonder why they have problems with 3 or 4 inch diameter tubes. Commercial growers spary a mist. Most aero growers use high volume low pressure pumps with sprayers thar trickle out streams of water. And they wonder why they have problems. But we all know they can fix it all with an air stone and low reservoir temps.
 
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AeroTrek

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fatman7574 said:
This thread is more about very quick efficient growth the large trees in reality so that tends to mean minimal primary roots, a very large amount of lateral roots covered with a hugh amount of hair roots. This however tends to bonzai plants and shorten the internodal space so much it can look almost like the branches are almost on top of each other. Great for SOG's but it requires a lot more experimentation on cyclic timing to allow for trees as palnts given a choice always strive for fast maturity and reproduction not yield to the grower (height). Can you imagine how quickly a Ruderalis would bud in a HP or air atomized aero.
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Fatman,

Would you be able to get taller plants with the same node spacing if you were to distance the light a little further from the plants (essentially stretching the plant). I know that you keep your lights 2 to 3 inches from the canopy top and was wondering if the close node spacing was due to this or Hp aero or both.
 
fatman7574

fatman7574

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The closer light just means more photosynthesis in given time period is possible. It seems that the root development leads to hormonal differences I have cut my PAR down changing my wattage to 41.66 from 62.5 and I still have short internodal spacing. The only thing that has changed that is to appreciably lower the amount of hair roots by over watering by watering to much when you spray or too often. Mainly too much when spraying.
 
laceygirl

laceygirl

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Fatman, I have had a ridiculous amount of trouble with my aerocloner... A whitish whispy looking fungi thing has returned twice to my aerocloner reservoir... I just want my clones to grow roots, I am using EZ Clone misters, in a 14 gallon rubbermaid roughneck... Its a great system, but I can't understand why this keeps happening... I've dismantled the entire unit and soaked it in disenfectant, rinsed it thoroughly and let it dry... Will re assemble it next week when the rest of the parts arrive...

I use Clonex Cloning solution with low pH tap water in the res... I don't use a water heater in the res anymore, my areocloner is in a cloning tent, with an extraction fan... The temps are always excellent....I can control the climate completely....
WHAT AM I DOING WRONG PLEASE...? I've been reading about bleach? How much bleach per gallon would I need...?? Can I still use my cloning solution if I use bleach???

Any information you could provide me would be great...

Laceygirl...
 
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Aeropuff

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Hi all!

I just read the whole thread and I love it! Props to Fatman, Atomizer, Tree Farmer and the rest of you for the great info!

I'm also working on my own project but I still have a long way to go...

Fatman I have a question regarding the Omron H5CX timers that you use. They come in either "100 to 240 VAC" and "12 to 24 VDC/24 VAC" supply voltage. Does this mean that the unit itself is supplied by that voltage or whatever the unit controls should be that voltage? or both?

For example I found these solenoids on ebay: http://cgi.ebay.com/1-4-Electric-Solenoid-Valve-12-volt-Air-Water-BBTF-/300418883920?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item45f25c6150

First of all , are these solenoids any good considering they are only $16 a piece? And could I control a few of these with the Omron H5CX?
 
fatman7574

fatman7574

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I use some of the same solenoids rated at 120 volts for gravity feed nutrients lines for air atomized aero. They work fine for that but I have never tried them with a higher pressure. The H5CX has a seperate feed wire to supply the outlet power from to the solenoids they are not fed by the same line as the inlet normally. It can be done with a jumper wire but that increases chances harming the timer circuitry raher than just a simple relay. IE $200 damage verus $10. But yes you can control a 12, 24, a 120 or 240 volt relay with either timer. The low voltage timer is available cheaper and more often on ebay then the high voltage timer. I use the Omron to control its own relay. That relay feeds power to a remote relay that actually supplies power to two pods with 3 solenoids each (1 for air and 2 for nutrients).
 
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Aeropuff

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Thanks for the answer!


I hope you don't mind but I have a couple more questions...:lol:


I made this simple diagram based on your drawing you posted earlier (page 111). The diagram is missing a pressure release valve as I'm not exactly sure where to place it. I know it goes before the accumulator tank and after the pump, however I'm not sure where to place with regards do the pressure switch and check valve.


Is there anything else missing in the diagram?


If I could find cheaper solenoids that would withstand the higher pressures (100psi) I would put them right before each nozzle.
 

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fatman7574

fatman7574

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The check valve is generally after the pressure switch and before the relief valve. The relief valve can be on either the inlet or outlet side of the pump. Jusy put no valves between the relief valve andthe tank. Most typically the solenoid valve controls more than one valvewith HP aero. typicallly it controls flow to all the mmisters in one chamber. If air atomized all the air for at least one chambers nozzles(s) is controlled by just one solenoid. If the water is fed by gravity a seperate nozzles is needed for that for each nozzle. They just like the HP spray Solenoid(s) go close to the nozzle(s) so that very little spray or drippage occurs after each spray cycle.
 
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Aeropuff

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ok I see...here is the updated version of the diagram. One more thing, I noticed in your sketch that you added a pressure regulator after the accumulator tank. Is this necessary or is it more of an additional safety precaution? Doesn't the accumulator tank in a way act as a pressure regulator?

Im sorry for the newbie questions...
 

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fatman7574

fatman7574

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The presure regulator assures that the pressureflows at the pressure or lower. IE if your pump outlet is 125 psi and your pressure regulator is at at 50 pis the pressure going to yout nozzles will be 50 psi. There is also a pressure switch that turns the pump on and off. Say on at 65 psi and off at 125 psi. The accumultor tank is mainly just a storage tank. It is used so that one can use a larger capacity pump then is needed. This is more efficient, and cost effective then using a smaller pump. The pressure tank allows the larger pump to run shorter periods of time and turn off until needed again. The accumulator tanks now used most often have a rubber bladder inside which is precharged with water to near your low end usage pressure. As air is more compressible than water this allows more water usagevbefore the pumps comes on that with just compressing water. The other option is a bladderless tank that you just add air to, but the water eventually absorbs the air and then you would need to periodically pump in more air.
 
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Aeropuff

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ok I get it...

Im planning on running a system that would be between 80 and 100 psi. and one thing that confuses me is the pressure switch...lets say I get a shurflo high pressure demand pump, more specifically the "SPECIAL BUILD" 8030-813-239 model found on this website: http://www.pumpagents.com/ShurfloPumps/8030-813-239.html which states that the pump turns on at 80 psi and shuts off at 100 (exactly the rating that I'm going for) does this mean I don't need a pressure switch such as the Dwyer Mercoid CXA-S3/S2 http://www.dwyer-inst.com/Products/Product.cfm?Group_ID=582&Product_ID=970&sPageName=Ordering

To rephrase my question: Is a pressure switch like the Dwyer Mercoid CXA-S3/S2 necessary if you have a pump like the "SPECIAL BUILD" 8030-813-239 that I linked above? To me it seems that you would need a pressure switch only with a pump that does not have one allready installed. Is this right?
 
fatman7574

fatman7574

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I would not buy a pump with a built in pressure switch as they seem to be pretty undependable and are typically non adjustable. The point with the pressure tank is that a pump is going to provide more air then you need, So the tank stores that extra air under high pressure. Typically you have your pump kick on at a pressure setting higher for kick on then that you are using for misters and higher yet for a kick off pressure. Say you are going to run 60 psi through your misters. Set your pump pressure switch so that your pump comes on at 65 PSI and turns the pump off at 95 psi. Set your pressure release valve at 100 psi. Set you pressure regulator at 60 psi. You pump will only run a few minutes every few hours depending on how many misters your using, their size(s) and your spraying times. Using a larger tank means longer the pump runs when it comes on, but that means it can go a very longtime before it needs to run again.
 
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Aeropuff

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Thats good info...you never know when you will want to change or adjust the pressure...so I guess the adjustable pressure switch is the way to go. Ok now I get the the whole set up idea....However choosing a pump can be quite strenuous (at least for me) as there is so many different models to choose from. For example I have no idea what "demand" means and then there are the "bypass" models...and then the "demand with bypass"...and to tell you quite honestly thats where I get lost...


Im trying to make a shopping list for all the items I would need.

So far I have purchased the bio-controls 0.016" Spray jets and a few solenoid valves from Ebay...

The accumulator tank will most likely be a Varem Tank http://www.varem.it/ (as I live in Europe and I heard great things about Varem's products and there is local distributor near by)

What pump do you recommend I purchase? I dont want to go under 60 psi and over 100 psi...
 
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Atomizer

Well-Known Member
fatman7574 said:
The relief valve can be on either the inlet or outlet side of the pump.
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Typo`s like this could maim someone or even cost them their life.

Guys, if you want to replicate Tree Farmers results, just follow the detailed information/photo`s he posted in the thread from several runs with the setup.
 
fatman7574

fatman7574

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Atomizer said:
Typo`s like this could maim someone or even cost them their life. So could tripping over a pebble. Damn how long did a few pele run their HP systems with no reiief valves at all dude. So give me a break Dude and next time just point out my simple error and maybe contribute something by saying where I should have said to put the relief valve rather than my just thinking it but writing something different. It was obvious others knew what I was indicating even with the the error. If you notice the drawing in the next reply is correct Dude.

Guys, if you want to replicate Tree Farmers results, just follow the detailed information/photo`s he posted in the thread from several runs with the setup.
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Lets not go there dude.

No one but a few individuals has seen anyhing he has grown so what makes you think anyone wants to replicate his results. No one knows what he has done and few are seeming to replicate his set up to any great extent, other than using a few using an accumulator tank and maybe one person considering using a shurflow pump. There are many ways to do things sucessfully and some are judging success differently then others.

I would be quite happy to let you and tree farmer answer all the HP system questions but I do not see you making the effort Dude. The last time you seemed to appear it was with the same bad attitude.
 
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