Need help please, sick plants week 3

gjs4786

Well-Known Member
How confident are we im not going to burn my plants adding nutes next feed to solve the apparent N deficiency? ?
You MUST get yourself to the point where you can say with some confidence what your pH is.. I say this to the point of upsetting people. Check your pH first. pH problems will cause nutrient lockout so fast it will make your headspin. Relying on the type of probe you described, I can't advise. If you treat a pH problem like a nutrient deficiency, you're going to run into more and more problems. The fact that you transplanted and said you added peat moss leads me to believe that you may have an overly acidic pH. Peat moss is acidic, and it WILL lower the pH of your medium. It's also possible you may have some gaps in the soil from the transplant, to the point that the roots can't bridge the gap. Try pushing down around the stem until it gives some to make sure you have good contact with the new soil and the original root-ball. Get a fix on that pH though. I can't stress that enough.
 

Sparksabout

New Member
Gjs4786 thanks i will figure ph out tomorrow and try pressing roots as described, i just checked and i can see roots have just hit the bottom of the pot
 

gjs4786

Well-Known Member
Whats the best way to test soil ph?
Well, there are a few schools of thought on that. But the slurry method seems to be the most reliable. Take some soil in a cup, and add the same water you water with to the mix until it's the consistency of a thick, muddy water. Then use a decent pH tester to test the pH of that solution. If the pH tester you have is just a metal rod, forget about it. You can find more suitable pH testers for not too much money on Amazon and eBay. There are different schools of thought on what hardware to use, too. Some people insist you need a very expensive pH meter, while people like me feel that a well taken care of, cheap, calibrated pH pen (12 bucks) will do the job. Also, you can get the paper litmus strips for pretty cheap. They work via color-matching the exposed strip to a color-chart on the package that will tell you what color is what pH.

My first grow, I failed to test pH of the soil because it was a seedling-starter mix, and I was having all sorts of issues. I got a pH pen for 12 bucks, calibrated it, and found out the pH of that seedling starter mix was 3.4 or something. I knew immediately what the issue was then. That mix was 95% sphagnum peat moss, too.

Edit: I'm pretty sure this is the same resource I used to better understand the importance of pH: https://www.growweedeasy.com/ph
 

chickenpoffpie

Well-Known Member
I'm new here but from what I've read, since you're using a 600 watt hps on seedlings, I think you should keep the light at least 3 feet above the top of the plants, if you are able to. I would also put a small fan in the grow space to circulate the air around them. At their age I doubt they are having any deficiencies in soil. Also, from what I've read, I doubt ph will be an issue since you are in soil. Maybe look into adding some beneficial microbes though?
 

gjs4786

Well-Known Member
I'm new here but from what I've read, since you're using a 600 watt hps on seedlings, I think you should keep the light at least 3 feet above the top of the plants, if you are able to. I would also put a small fan in the grow space to circulate the air around them. At their age I doubt they are having any deficiencies in soil. Also, from what I've read, I doubt ph will be an issue since you are in soil. Maybe look into adding some beneficial microbes though?
pH is just as important in soil as it is with hydro. If not more so, because it takes longer to remedy soil pH issues. Not trying to call you out, but saying pH isn't important for soil couldn't be further from the truth. You illustrate exactly what I was trying to convey: Plants are pretty young to be having nutrient issues. What, so often, mimics a nutrient issue? pH problems.
 

chickenpoffpie

Well-Known Member
pH is just as important in soil as it is with hydro. If not more so, because it takes longer to remedy soil pH issues. Not trying to call you out, but saying pH isn't important for soil couldn't be further from the truth. You illustrate exactly what I was trying to convey: Plants are pretty young to be having nutrient issues. What, so often, mimics a nutrient issue? pH problems.
Yeah I know ph is important in soil too. But usually there are microbes in soil that help regulate the ph so you can just water with tap water and not have to worry about it. But like I said, maybe he should add some beneficial microbes to help with it.
 

Sparksabout

New Member
Did a ph test with a kit here are the results attached in pics, looks like 6.0-6.5 to me? Never used one before but my other cheap probe gave same readings so i guess they must be hungry, i noticed the soil i purchased had holes in the bags, a big no no for me and i usually use sealed bags but there are none, i was thinking maybe the soil bags sat in a pallet in the rain and got flushed out, and my plants are starving
 

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gjs4786

Well-Known Member
Looks to be between 7 and 7.5 to me, but I am ever so slightly colorblind. It also says to use natural light to compare but I feel like the difference would be negligible. It's very possible the mix they're in is too hot, and it's something your seedlings just have to grow through. Have you tried giving 1/4 strength feed to 1 or two plants to see what their response is? Heck, I might even start with 1/8th strength.If it's a nutrient deficiency, they will show improvement in new growth. Sometimes it's hard to tell between deficient and excessive, depending on the nutrient.

This graph shows what nutrients are taken in at a given pH. As you can see, the sweet spot is 6.5 for soil. 6.6 thru 7 - it's possible that you're plant isn't taking in Mn (manganese) and Fe (iron). Go ahead and treat one with a weak nute mix and see what happens. Two of the most common signs of nutrient toxicity are tip burn and dark leaves. Don't see that here. From this website: https://www.growweedeasy.com/seedling-problems/#nutrient-problems

"When there's too many nutrients, the plant can start getting light colored because some nutrients are getting locked out. The tip burn on the leaves is a good indicator that this problem is caused by too many nutrients. Also this grower started with a "hot" (nutrient rich) soil mix, and there's no way a plant this size could have already used up all those nutrients.

A lot of growers may think the way to fix this is add more nutrients since the plant leaves are pale, but that will actually make things worse! This plant just needs some plain water until it starts to use up the nutrients in the soil, and it will soon take on a healthy green appearance on new leaves."

Because you mentioned you added peat moss, which is considered soilless, I'll include this from the same link:

"Some growers may start in a soilless medium and not realize it has no nutrients (with a soilless medium like vermiculite, coco coir, pertlie, rockwool, etc, it’s up to the grower to provide all the nutrients since they are inert mediums and don’t contain any nutrients on their own) which results in a deficiency if grower isn't providing extra nutrients. Soilless mediums are easy to grow in, but they do require the grower provide nutrients from the beginning."

 

Sparksabout

New Member
Really thank you for that last response, very helpfull, i have given them all 1/2 strenght bio nutes yesterday and made sure i only watered lightly with about 1/2 a litre through each 4L pot, they definatly showed signs of improvment since then greening up and lifting up instead of drooping down, if you compare my last pics to my origional pics in first post you can see they definatly like it, i am now wondering how i should proceed now that im pretty sure they are starved, should i do a 1 of big hit with nutes or just start at full strength or keep feeding at 1/2 strength, the soil is 1 3rd perlite and 1 1/3 peat moss and 1 3rd potting mix so i guess theres not much in it, should i water lightly again today or wait a day or too? Soil is lightly moist and can see roots coming out the bottom of the pot
 

gjs4786

Well-Known Member
Really thank you for that last response, very helpfull, i have given them all 1/2 strenght bio nutes yesterday and made sure i only watered lightly with about 1/2 a litre through each 4L pot, they definatly showed signs of improvment since then greening up and lifting up instead of drooping down, if you compare my last pics to my origional pics in first post you can see they definatly like it, i am now wondering how i should proceed now that im pretty sure they are starved, should i do a 1 of big hit with nutes or just start at full strength or keep feeding at 1/2 strength, the soil is 1 3rd perlite and 1 1/3 peat moss and 1 3rd potting mix so i guess theres not much in it, should i water lightly again today or wait a day or too? Soil is lightly moist and can see roots coming out the bottom of the pot
Well, I love to experiment, so what I would do is pick a plant and give it a full dose of nutrients, see what happens. They are so tender and young right now that I don't know if a full dose of ferts is what they need. Plants that small don't need a total drench, either, and this confuses a lot of people, especially right after transplant, they aren't sure how much water to give because they are using a bigger pot now. I went from 16oz cups to 7 gallon fabric pots, so that was kind of challenging at first.

The potting mix, what brand is it? It's probably mostly peat as well, so in reality you're probably running 1/3rd perlite and 2/3rd peat. In other words, very little nutrients to speak of in the mix.

I think the only way, the safest way to know for sure, is to use one as a guinea pig. You probably wouldn't hurt it too bad. Another thing you should consider, is that it's easy to rush things when growing. Plants don't seem to grow an inch for what seems like forever, but the next thing you know you got buds. Patience is key. It will take 3-4 days until you see any kind of result. When things aren't 100%, like now, that can make a day feel like a month, so be mindful of the time the plants have had to respond to what you've given/not given to them. I'm guilt of it myself, going back into the grow room 2 hours later expecting something different.

If the soil is lightly moist, don't water yet. You could get away with it in later stages of growth, probably even this stage, but their root systems are still establishing themselves, and you want the roots to go out in search of nutrients and water. That's what i was referring to when I mentioned the possibility that after the transplant, the roots weren't able to bridge the gap. It's a real thing. If your plants aren't seated properly, from being overly careful transplanting, their roots will stay within the rootball they had originally.

Are you adjusting the pH of the water you feed them? Are you adjusting the pH after you mix in nutrients? Once won't hurt, but if occurs over and over, a wrong pH of the water will change the pH of your soil. I add my nutrients, mix, test, then add the proper amount of ph up or down until I reach 6.5. After a grow, you'll know how much you need to add of ph down, or ph up, and ya only have to check the pH every now and then, in case your water provider flubbed up, which happens. I don't suggest such complacency though...but it's better than not testing at all. Meters are cheap, every Marijuana plant deserves one.
 

gjs4786

Well-Known Member
If you could water one of the plants and test the pH of the run off that comes out, that would be cool. A lot of people will say it's a waste of time, but it's one more data point to consider that is directly affected by the medium. If/before you do that, also measure the pH of the water before hand.
 

Sparksabout

New Member
Ok i will do that next watering,

I just gave 1 plant a dose at twice strength it had before so 2ml/l algamic and 2ml/l biogrow i will report back once i see some changes thanks again for the help
 

Sparksabout

New Member
They are coming back to life now, thanks for all the help, turns out they were relly hungry but really bouncing back now, looking at replacing my 600w hps with a 600w equivalent viraspectra v600 to keep heat and costs down, pic attached
 

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skiz

Well-Known Member
https://amzn.to/2KVBH2n

Those Guardian Blue Labs are nice. There are obviously less expensive methods but the Blue Lab has been worth it for me. As gjs4786 mentioned, pH is super important. I personally don't test my runoff from the soil itself, just my water/feeding barrels. But knowing what the roots are actually getting with the soil is more accurate. Nute lock can suck, and over watering them when they are that small, in those 5 gals, can be a slow recovery. Also when they dry out again, try to water closer to plant stem, if you're using a head on your wand, I'd remove it to water. Are you feeding again soon? They may also just need to eat. Otherwise I'd say they look like they're recovering :)

Cheers! Hope this helps!
 

Sparksabout

New Member
Ok so they are recovering well and im 100% sure they are hungry, i gave them a full strength feed yesterday and they greened right up again,

What i am finding is when i feed them, they start to come green again and looking good, then after a day i notice they are slightly yellowing again, its as if i cant get enough food in them quick enough, should i keep feeding every other day as i am ensuring not to over water or should i give them more often than that untill they build up a store of nutes? My temps are a little high, ive decided against LED and am instead installing a split ac in the room next week. Thanks
 

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