New LED lights stretching

My completely unprofessional thoughts are that you are not suffering from a lack of light at all. The far red light (730nm and above) is sending a signal to the plant that there are other plants above it. As a result it is growing taller to compete.
Why?
Longer wavelengths generally penetrate much deeper into leaf tissue and appear to be the main range of wavelengths that reach below the canopy. The plant seems to respond to this imbalance by reaching higher to compensate. I guess you could classify it as a "shade avoidance" tendency. I've had a similar problem with red-heavy lights and got the situation back under control by simply turning off the far reds.
The tendency for shade avoidance combined with the Emerson effect leads to a healthy though slightly yellow plant that is very tall and lanky (but still fundamentally viable.)
If you think about this tendency in the context of plants that stretch in dim light, it's really the same thing. The Color Signals that it's receiving tell the plant that there must be competitors stealing it's light.
The other side is that in flowering, far red can tell the plant that fall is coming (the sun is lower in the sky) and as a result, those competitive instincts can lead to more bud sites, as the plant become more sexually frustrated, and knows it needs to mate.
Listen to Dr. Bruce Bugbee talk about this at minute 12:00 in relation to cell expansion.

calyxico said:

My completely unprofessional thoughts are that you are not suffering from a lack of light at all. The red light (630nm and above) is sending a signal to the plant that there are other plants above it. As a result it is growing taller to compete.
Why?
Longer wavelengths generally penetrate much deeper into leaf tissue and appear to be the main range of wavelengths that reach below the canopy. The plant seems to respond to this imbalance by reaching higher to compensate. I guess you could classify it as a "shade avoidance" tendency. I've had a similar problem with red-heavy lights and got the situation back under control by simply turning off the reds.
The tendency for shade avoidance combined with the Emerson effect leads to a healthy though slightly yellow plant that is very tall and lanky (but still fundamentally viable.)
If you think about this tendency in the context of plants that stretch in dim light, it's really the same thing. The Color Signals that it's receiving tell the plant that there must be competitors stealing it's light.
Listen to Dr. Bruce Bugbee talk about this at minute 12:00 in relation to cell expansion.

Click to expand...

Emerson effect is more about far red and deep red interactions. 630nm is below those interactions. 660nm to 750nm is where it occurs.

Drasik said:

The best way to know if their numbers are solid or not is to see if they testing in a integrating sphere. It's the best way most appropriate way to isolate the light form the unit and drive to an accurate result. Gavita uses integrating spheres for testing. A company like Spider Farmer openly admits to testing in tents. In tents you can get additional boost from refractory properties of the walls and light pollution. Another way is to look at their advertised numbers and their DLC results if they are certified. I've noticed a few companies advertised results can be different from their DLC stated specifications.

Do you have a citation for those testing studies done in Israel?

There have been some decent studies in recent years that are supporting the use of different spectra.

Magagnini shows a comparison between HPS and LED https://www.karger.com/Article/Fulltext/489030#ref22

The Jenkins has data on UV https://www.scirp.org/journal/paperinformation.aspx?paperid=113836

(PDF) Influence of Light Spectra on the Production of Cannabinoids

PDF | In recent years, more attention has been paid to cannabis from both medical and political points of view. This study investigates the influence of... | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate

www.researchgate.net

The Amrein really breaks down spectra and show direct correlation to yield

(PDF) Influence of Light Spectra on the Production of Cannabinoids

PDF | In recent years, more attention has been paid to cannabis from both medical and political points of view. This study investigates the influence of... | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate

www.researchgate.net

While this is great research its just the tip of the iceburg, there needs to be more research conducted. Forums like this are appreciated but different geno and chemotypes of plants can also produce difference results. We're still in the wild wild west of fully understanding spectral cultivation.

Click to expand...

Reading a research paper with "Pootie Tang" as a test sample made my whole damn week.

PJ Diaz said:

Emerson effect is more about far red and deep red interactions. 630nm is below those interactions. 660nm to 750nm is where it occurs.

Click to expand...

I updated it to say 730. Thanks!
Edit: What I am trying to indicate is that the accelerated metabolism that comes with the Emerson Effect in addition to the Shade avoidance tendency, leads to a thin, tall, but overall healthy plant.

jimihendrix1 said:

Not really

The HLG 650R is 630w, has the same umol as the Gavita. The HLG 650r has 2592 Diodes, and the Gavita has 3336 Diodes.

So that right there gives 744 more Diodes with the Gavita. Easing the load and heat production per diode. Extending the life of the diode.

The Gavita spreads the light out better

You can get the Gavita for $1002 at Hydrobuilder

The HLG 650R costs $1100 at Hydrobuilder

The Gavita runs cooler

• While the HLG may be, but Ive not seen it advertised as CE and CB compliant, and the Gavita has a wider ambient air operating temperature.

The Gavita is rated as being suitable for growing in wet areas. Also has protection from dust, and oil.

Wet Rating
IP66 wet rated and UL8800 compliant for use in wet environments which allows versatile placement in growing spaces.

Its IP66 wet rating provides complete protection from dust, oil, and water, allowing you to mount this light source in low rooms, on vertical racks, over rolling benches


The Gavita has Phillips Driver

HLG has a Meanwell. Not saying mean well arent good. But Ill take the Phillips any day. Phillips has been in business making electronic equipment for 131 years. Since 1891

Mean Well has been in business since 1982

Mean Well Drivers are made in China

Phillips Drivers are made in Netherlands

As of 2012, Philips was the largest manufacturer of lighting in the world

The HLG has a 3 year warranty.

The Gavita has a 5 years warranty.

Ill take the Gavita anyday, everyday.

The only drawback with the Gavita is that you have to spend another $$78 at Growers House for the dimming module. Some places want as much as $130. Gavita still comes in cheaper than the HLG 650R. HLG $1100 vs $1080

I dont see 1 advantage with the HLG vs the Gavita. Especially since the Gavita has 744 more diodes, and 2 more years on the warranty. 5 years vs 3 years. Gavita has a 40% longer warranty

Click to expand...

There are a few benefits with HLG 650R over the gavita:
- More efficient diodes. Even with 700something extra diodes the gavita spends more power on creating the same light output. But hey its only 2% so maybe not the biggest deal.
- spectrum: upgraded diablo boards have a spectrum which broaden the blue peak from 450 to 435-450nm. This means its much more apt to hit peaks in the actionspectrum (photosynthesis and syomata aperture/transpiration). No other brand of diodes has been able to do this without lowering efficiency, samsung mnaged to do it increasing efficiency. Hlg seems to have north american monopoly on these diodes.
- 650R and scorpion does not use meanwell, they use inventronics due to higher reliability and better voltage ranges.

You are right in stating the there are huge differences in spread favoring the gavita. Id go for the scorpion even if its a bit more expensive.

jimihendrix1 said:

Not really

The HLG 650R is 630w, has the same umol as the Gavita. The HLG 650r has 2592 Diodes, and the Gavita has 3336 Diodes.

So that right there gives 744 more Diodes with the Gavita. Easing the load and heat production per diode. Extending the life of the diode.

The Gavita spreads the light out better

You can get the Gavita for $1002 at Hydrobuilder

The HLG 650R costs $1100 at Hydrobuilder

The Gavita runs cooler

• While the HLG may be, but Ive not seen it advertised as CE and CB compliant, and the Gavita has a wider ambient air operating temperature.

The Gavita is rated as being suitable for growing in wet areas. Also has protection from dust, and oil.

Wet Rating
IP66 wet rated and UL8800 compliant for use in wet environments which allows versatile placement in growing spaces.

Its IP66 wet rating provides complete protection from dust, oil, and water, allowing you to mount this light source in low rooms, on vertical racks, over rolling benches


The Gavita has Phillips Driver

HLG has a Meanwell. Not saying mean well arent good. But Ill take the Phillips any day. Phillips has been in business making electronic equipment for 131 years. Since 1891

Mean Well has been in business since 1982

Mean Well Drivers are made in China

Phillips Drivers are made in Netherlands

As of 2012, Philips was the largest manufacturer of lighting in the world

The HLG has a 3 year warranty.

The Gavita has a 5 years warranty.

Ill take the Gavita anyday, everyday.

The only drawback with the Gavita is that you have to spend another $$78 at Growers House for the dimming module. Some places want as much as $130. Gavita still comes in cheaper than the HLG 650R. HLG $1100 vs $1080

I dont see 1 advantage with the HLG vs the Gavita. Especially since the Gavita has 744 more diodes, and 2 more years on the warranty. 5 years vs 3 years. Gavita has a 40% longer warranty

Click to expand...

yes really...

i was thinking more of a direct comparison to other bar lights out today not anything from hlg but a couple of points anyway.

you cant compare diode numbers between lights and extrapolate operating temps when they are not using the same diodes, do you know the exact specs of the diodes used? typical forward voltage, max forward current ect.
i agree if they were using the exact same diodes and the same bins then you could use a diode count to roughly point to which light should stand the test of time the best all other things being equal. but things like pcb thickness and layout, heatsink design ect are all going to play a role so its defo not straight forward...

for the price comparisons neither gavita or hlg are known for the value for money, they are not the dearest lights out there but they is defo arent the cheapest.

as for the ip ratings ect one might be better than the other but its not as deal breaker really is it? they are both decently constructed and wont electrocute you so meh...

i would rather use the meanwell drivers than philips personally, the gavita philips drivers have suffered massive failure rates, gavita even had to make a youtube video to show people how to do the warranty replacement. im not saying i have never seen a meanwell fail but they do stand behind their product with the best warranty in the buisness.

whos been in buisness the longest isnt really a good metric for quality, if i have been growing longer than you does that make me a better grower? of course not...

also you missed the single biggest selling point of todays lighting industry, efficiency. hlg is 2.84 ppf and gavita 2.6 ppf.

anyway my main point was for the op who is based in the uk i think?, was the link he posted for the gavita was from onestopgrowshop.
if i had to buy a light from onestopgrowshop today he can buy the gavita for £1094 uk pounds for 2.6 ppf @645watt, or he could buy the lumatek zeus pro for £879 @ 2.9ppf @600watt. if he wanted to spend the same amount as a gavita he could buy the adjustawings hellion vs3 and get a better adjustable spectrum for £1089 @ 2.65ppf/2.75bpf @700watts.

again im not sayin the gavitas junk, just today you can get more for less.

The Gavita uses Samsung 301b Diodes. Also Osram Red/Far Red.

The Gavita is 3000k, and the HLG is 4000k. Myself Id rather have the 3000k.

I like that the Gavita is stronger in the Red spectrum.

Ive also been using a 1000w Hortilux HPS for almost 30 years for seedlings-flowering, and have always had outstanding results. The Hortilux is 2100k

But I think both are ok.

The Gavita uses Samsung 301b diodes, and the HLG uses the 301h, and theres really not a hills worth of beans difference.


The Samsung LM301H is almost exactly the same as the samsung LM301b, the only difference is the LM301H has a protective layer over the diode which protects the diode from sulphurization , essentially it is to slow down the deterioration of the diode in a damp/humid environment.

But the Gavita is certified in wet conditions, and is sealed so no water, or oil can penetrate it. Again the Gavita has a 5 years warranty vs 3 for the 650R.

When are manufacturers going to start using the Samsung 301H EVO Diodes??? THEYVE ONLY BEEN OUT 3 MONTHS.

LM301H Evo - new Horticulture LEDs 2022 | Crescience
Nov 24, 2021 · With the LM301H Evo, a small revolution in plant lighting awaits us, because for the first time a composition of LED chip and phosphor has been developed especially for plant




Spectrum for Gavita 1700e

jimihendrix1 said:

If you were to look into a grow light that had an equal balance of blue and red, it would have a color temperature of 3000K – very similar to the sunlight at noon on a sunny day!

Click to expand...

3000 kelvin is more like sunset. Daylight is 5000-6500k

Edit: yeah, i'm a photog

jimihendrix1 said:

The Gavita uses the best Samsung Diodes

Click to expand...

clearly they dont or they would be higher than 2.6ppf.

jimihendrix1 said:

like that the Gavita is stronger in the Red spectrum.

Click to expand...

is it? you can tell that from them graphs?... unless both are tested on the same equipment comparing spectral readout graphs is pointless.

jimihendrix1 said:

If you were to look into a grow light that had an equal balance of blue and red, it would have a color temperature of 3000K – very similar to the sunlight at noon on a sunny day! Most grow lights vary from this standard however, and will give off more blue or yellow/red light depending on the strength of the bin.

Click to expand...

an equal ballance of blue and red does not give you a colour temp of 3000k, the final kelvin of an led light source is determined by the wavelenghts of light present and their amounts, there are multiple different combinations of ways you could end up at 3000k.

midday sun is normally thought of as 5000k.

Kassiopeija said:

I'm sorry the first is really esoteric, and both theories or write-ups still make the old error in thinking that chlorophylls can't absorb green photons. they can - and do.
they are mislead by measurements of broken chl mols on diethyl-ether or acetone, which doesnt give a realistic information on how light is being absorbed when said chlorophyll is a part of the light-harvesting complexes.

From the comments:
(he has it down)
"Aquila2 years ago
Is this article actually serious? The energetics of the electron transfer chain are v v well known including photon energy level requirements and antenna pigment based non photochemical quenching, carotenoid protection and xanthophyll cycling. The energetic levels of photons passing thru PS1 & 2 have to be appropriate to keep the system balanced and operating smoothly. Fine tuning is done v rapidly within the antenna by viola, anthera and zeaxanthin in higher plants and diato,diadinoxanthin in some algal species etc. Longer term protection involves other carotenoids but as they cant change form like the xanthophylls this is basically a protective covering thats v slow to react to changes in light and is more a long term adaptation to environment. If a plant let through all photons of all energetic levels it would literally fry the reaction centre D1 proteins like an egg and cease photosynthesis v quickly. I really dont understand why everything in this article they say is not understood has in fact been taught as pre degree biology for decades. Apart from needing to keep energetic flow through reaction centres in the light reactions stable.....a stable input to the Calvin cycle is also required and whacking in more energy after the dark reactions are saturated (pmax) is literally going to destroy the chloroplasts. Plants actually use WAY less than full sunlight photon doses (2000µmol photons per second per m2 for most lab experiments) regardless of what wavelength photons you provide, the light part of the PE curve becomes saturated at fairly low photon densities and trying to get that up any further is useless as it fries the reaction centres needlessly when the dark reactions are already at full pelt and is a massive cost to the cell to replace all the damage. The system HAS to be stable to operate but apart from that, trying to speed it up further would just result in total damage to reaction centres and the D1 & D2 proteins fusing to completely block RC2. All A level to basic biology degree level stuff thats been taught for literally decades. Far from 'unstatisfyingly wasteful' the system is beautifully designed to optimise photosynthesis under a wide range of conditions without frying every protein. I really am confused that the very basics of photosynthesis are described here as being unknown. Reactions to flicker effect btw are going to be governed by xanthophyll cycling which is a v v rapid way of altering non photochemical quenching.......already widely known and used in remote sensing (due to the reflectance change it causes around 531nm) as a way to detect photosynetic rates in plants. Exactly what photons and how many are used has been extensively studied using PAM fluorescence, again for many decades. Not that Gabor is particularly wrong about anything they say.. but opening a biology textbook would have answered every question in seconds compared to however long this amazing research into things already well known took."

This review explains alot about the mystery & positive function of the green light, and why "only" 85% of it is absorbed.

(PDF) Importance of the green color, absorption gradient, and spectral absorption of chloroplasts for the radiative energy balance of leaves

PDF | Terrestrial green plants absorb photosynthetically active radiation (PAR; 400–700 nm) but do not absorb photons evenly across the PAR waveband.... | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate

www.researchgate.net

Click to expand...

haha i knew you would pick em to bits...

calyxico said:

My completely unprofessional thoughts are that you are not suffering from a lack of light at all. The far red light (730nm and above) is sending a signal to the plant that there are other plants above it. As a result it is growing taller to compete.
Why?
Longer wavelengths generally penetrate much deeper into leaf tissue and appear to be the main range of wavelengths that reach below the canopy. The plant seems to respond to this imbalance by reaching higher to compensate. I guess you could classify it as a "shade avoidance" tendency. I've had a similar problem with red-heavy lights and got the situation back under control by simply turning off the far reds.

Click to expand...

The shade-avoidance effect is countered by even a relatively small presence of blue light, to which phototropins are highly sensitive.

Outside in nature, the midday summer sun has a red-to-farred ratio of even 1,3:1. And sunplants don't show SAS unless they grow inside the woods.
Most typical white light diode specs have farred below 5% of the total radiance, and a huge 660nm efficiency spike - which is countering the Pfr-reaction.
But there are already growlights that have, at least, a continous 730nm lightband integrated in the powerrange of ~~30% of 660nm, and plants grow just fine.

grotbags said:

clearly they dont or they would be higher than 2.6ppf.


is it? you can tell that from them graphs?... unless both are tested on the same equipment comparing spectral readout graphs is pointless.



an equal ballance of blue and red does not give you a colour temp of 3000k, the final kelvin of an led light source is determined by the wavelenghts of light present and their amounts, there are multiple different combinations of ways you could end up at 3000k.

midday sun is normally thought of as 5000k.

Click to expand...

Gavita uses Samsung 301b diodes. Not a hill of beans worth of difference between them and the LM301H.

The Kelvin rating for the Gavita is 3000k, the 650R is 4000k. Which means the Gavita is heavier towards the Red spectrum.

The Samsung LM301H EVO is the best diode, but nobody is using it yet as I know of, as its only been out for 3 months.

jimihendrix1 said:

Gavita uses Samsung 301b diodes. Not a hill of beans worth of difference between them and the LM301H

Click to expand...

i kind of agree but this whole industrys current usp is efficiency...

PJ Diaz said:

Emerson effect is more about far red and deep red interactions. 630nm is below those interactions. 660nm to 750nm is where it occurs

Click to expand...

Emmerson effect is about the abnormal increased excitation
of photosystem 2, which can happen with any PAR white light <681nm, and its counterbalancing via PS2, that absorbs also all PAR light, but accepts light more redshifted, thus the darkred/farred colours serve to stimulate this - in the presence of other PAR light.

jimihendrix1 said:

Gavita uses Samsung 301b diodes. Not a hill of beans worth of difference between them and the LM301H.

Click to expand...

As far as I know there is no difference. If the gavita numbers are current they are using lower bin leds than hlg. I wouldn't really be that surprised if their lights had a bit higher efficacy these days, because the lm301b bins are getting better and better.

jimihendrix1 said:

The Gavita uses Samsung 301b Diodes. Also Osram Red/Far Red.

The Gavita is 3000k, and the HLG is 4000k. Myself Id rather have the 3000k.

I like that the Gavita is stronger in the Red spectrum.

Ive also been using a 1000w Hortilux HPS for almost 30 years for seedlings-flowering, and have always had outstanding results. The Hortilux is 2100k

But I think both are ok.

The Gavita uses Samsung 301b diodes, and the HLG uses the 301h, and theres really not a hills worth of beans difference.


The Samsung LM301H is almost exactly the same as the samsung LM301b, the only difference is the LM301H has a protective layer over the diode which protects the diode from sulphurization , essentially it is to slow down the deterioration of the diode in a damp/humid environment.

But the Gavita is certified in wet conditions, and is sealed so no water, or oil can penetrate it. Again the Gavita has a 5 years warranty vs 3 for the 650R

If you were to look into a grow light that had an equal balance of blue and red, it would have a color temperature of 3000K – very similar to the sunlight at noon on a sunny day! Most grow lights vary from this standard however, and will give off more blue or yellow/red light depending on the strength of the bin.
So in that case, the Gavita is closer to the kelvin of the sun, at noon.

Another plus for the Gavita is that it has a 5 years warranty vs a 3 years warranty.



When are manufacturers going to start using the Samsung 301H EVO Diodes??? THEYVE ONLY BEEN OUT 3 MONTHS.

LM301H Evo - new Horticulture LEDs 2022 | Crescience

LM301H Evo - new Horticulture LEDs 2022 | Crescience

Samsung releases a new version of the popular LM301H LED - LM301H Evo is coming! Our module with this chip achieves 3.3 µmol/J.

cre.science

Nov 24, 2021 · With the LM301H Evo, a small revolution in plant lighting awaits us, because for the first time a composition of LED chip and phosphor has been developed especially for plant




Spectrum for Gavita 1700e

View attachment 5094150



View attachment 5094151

Click to expand...

While i dont have a horse in this race, as i really value the extra spread a bar light can give, there are a few things you get wrong here. Some of them has been brought up already. But theres a couple more:
- the spectrum indicated as the gavita spectrum does not use 3000k 80cri white if it looks like that, the blue peak would have been much smaller. That looks like a typical 4000k 80cri base (or possibly 5000k) as the blue spike is as or even taller than the green/yellow pump.
- there is absolutely no real difference between lm301b and h. The silicon covering is there on both versions, just that its marketed as a extra benefit in the H version. The H version is the same diode but tends to have higher flux bins and lower voltage bins for better efficiency. If i understand correctly lm301h is always top binned while 301b exists in lower bins aswell. The lm301h evo is a different beast with a different photon pump. And yes, it is actually being used in the new diablo boards, at least for the scorpion light. The spectrum you got for the scorpion is wrong:

See how its got a double peak in the blue area: this widening covers the blue side of the spectrum much better including peaks of chlorophyll and transpiration in the action spectrum. This diode seems to be monopolized by hlg, in euro theres another company, cant remember which. Its likely youll never ever see these diodes with any other light manufacturer.
-equal balance of blue and red does not automatically give 3000k. Look at an actual 3000k led spectrum and you will see this. The amount of green and yellow also matters a great deal.

led.tech in germany has the new evo chips, invisable sun in the uk has them also.

grotbags said:

led.tech in germany has the new evo chips, invisable sun in the uk has them also.

Click to expand...

Wow, i didnt realize that led-tech got them, and as strips aswell! Maybe brexit got us lucky!

Rocket Soul said:

While i dont have a horse in this race, as i really value the extra spread a bar light can give, there are a few things you get wrong here. Some of them has been brought up already. But theres a couple more:
- the spectrum indicated as the gavita spectrum does not use 3000k 80cri white if it looks like that, the blue peak would have been much smaller. That looks like a typical 4000k 80cri base (or possibly 5000k) as the blue spike is as or even taller than the green/yellow pump.
- there is absolutely no real difference between lm301b and h. The silicon covering is there on both versions, just that its marketed as a extra benefit in the H version. The H version is the same diode but tends to have higher flux bins and lower voltage bins for better efficiency. If i understand correctly lm301h is always top binned while 301b exists in lower bins aswell. The lm301h evo is a different beast with a different photon pump. And yes, it is actually being used in the new diablo boards, at least for the scorpion light. The spectrum you got for the scorpion is wrong:
View attachment 5094157
See how its got a double peak in the blue area: this widening covers the blue side of the spectrum much better including peaks of chlorophyll and transpiration in the action spectrum. This diode seems to be monopolized by hlg, in euro theres another company, cant remember which. Its likely youll never ever see these diodes with any other light manufacturer.
-equal balance of blue and red does not automatically give 3000k. Look at an actual 3000k led spectrum and you will see this. The amount of green and yellow also matters a great deal.

Click to expand...

I got the spectrum chart from the HLG site.

This was a comparison of a LUXX 645 Pro vs the Gavita 1700e. They say the Gavita has a 3000k spectrum. LUXX is 3900k


#4 Luxx vs. Gavita LED Light Spectrum
If light output is like your cars horsepower, then light spectrum would be the handling. Choosing the appropriate light spectrum, or using a grow light controller to adjust your light’s channels will determine how your plant will grow. Both Luxx 645 Pro LED and Gavita 1700e are extremely similar in the light quality they produce. The Luxx uses a 3900 Kelvin light spectrum, while the Gavita 1700e uses a 3000 Kelvin spectrum with additional 660 nanometer (nm) Osram red diodes to balance the spectrum for full-cycle production. You’re not going to find much difference in terms of spectral performance from these fixtures, again making both good options for cultivation at any growth stage.

650w Scorpion is a beast with 2130umol, and 650w. Better have good air exchange, or CO2 to use that devil.