New study: single payer would cost 34 trillion for first decade

DIY-HP-LED

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
BurtMaklin said:
No, there isn't. Healthcare is funded through taxes (part of the provincial budget, subsidized by federal transfer payments), not through premiums. Whether you decide to use it up to you, making it "optional" I guess, but there is no "opt out". Present your HC card, get services, leave.

Our system isn't perfect, and I advocate for better, voting that way. I vote NDP because they advocate for a national pharmacare program and universal dental care, eliminating the need for supplemental benefits, which, IMO, are bullshit BECAUSE they are subject to approval by the carrier and not everyone can afford it. Collectively, we can do better for less.

There are people here that are forced into bankruptcy to pay for drugs to save their lives, while multinational corporations use our collective resources as their license to print money and loopholes to avoid paying their share of taxes. That is unacceptable, and you should want better for your country, not use our shortcomings as an excuse to do less for yourselves.
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You can have private supplemental insurance in Canada, we have a two tier system, those with money can go to the states or other places and pay, few do though. Some Americans go overseas for cheaper treatment too and I would imagine plans would be offered with hospitals in Mexico for the well to do. Also the level of privatisation varies from province to province with some services like basic x rays and lab work offered privately in some provinces and paid for by the government and other provinces where the government does it all.
 
HolyAngel

HolyAngel

Well-Known Member
abandonconflict said:
The federal budget for fiscal 2019 is as follows.

Revenue 3.4 trillion dollars
Expenditures 4.4 trillion dollars
Deficit nearly a trillion dollars. (higher now)

That savings is what the government would pay, vs what the people currently pay on the aggregate.

Nobody is proposing we leave the current system as it is. But abolishing private insurance comes with massive taxes. It's either that or a 2.4 trillion dollar deficit and that is if we get bernies taxes on the ultra wealthy which only pay for about half of the cost.

This new, like brand spanking new study in the lancet says that the cost is 3 trillion per year. I'm willing to accept that study and debate this issue based on that info. However, the author is certainly biased in bernie's favor and worked directly for his senate staff in the past.

I'm still absolutely opposed to adding 3 trillion dollars in annual federal expenditures. Those tax hikes would be enormous. I would certainly prefer deductibles and co-pays to save thousands of dollars per year.
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Right but if those taxes are less then the hundreds of dollars I'm paying every single paycheck to private insurance, that's a win, no?
 
abandonconflict

abandonconflict

Well-Known Member
You have to register for the Lancet to see the entire study but I will point out pertinent things about it and let someone else verify.

The study from the lancet calculates the cost to the federal government at 3 trillion dollars per year year.

It highlights a 450 billion dollar savings and a savings in 68,000 lives over the current system.

It confirms that doctors take a significant pay cut.

For the sake of argument, I will accept the numbers proposed in the study. 3 trillion per year or 30 trillion dollars for the first decade as prescribed in such a bill.

I'm sure we have 30 trillion dollars lying around somewhere...
 
abandonconflict

abandonconflict

Well-Known Member
HolyAngel said:
Right but if those taxes are less then the hundreds of dollars I'm paying every single paycheck to private insurance, that's a win, no?
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Not for everyone.

Expanding Medicare to all who opt for it would cost a tiny fraction of that amount and satisfy both of us while eliminating the problem of there being 27 million uninsured Americans. My costs are very low because I'm extremely healthy and I opt for co-pays and deductibles to save thousands of dollars per year. Many are in the same spot and would rather not pay the taxes.

Bernies plan would force me to take a plan that is far more than I need or want along with significant tax hikes. Also, doctors would take a pay cut and the economy would lose up to a million jobs.
 
DIY-HP-LED

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
Often a value added tax is introduced to pay for single payer healthcare, in Canada it is the GST (Gouge and Screw Tax), a sales tax on most items except groceries etc, say 5 or 10%. People under a certain income level get a GST rebate check four times a year and foreign tourist can get a rebate too (save yer receipts). In America this kind of federal sales tax would raise a lot of money on gasoline alone, no more monthly healthcare insurance payments of hundreds of dollars and many would like that.
 
abandonconflict

abandonconflict

Well-Known Member
DIY-HP-LED said:
Often a value added tax is introduced to pay for single payer healthcare, in Canada it the GST (Gouge and Screw Tax), a sales tax on most items except groceries etc, say 5 or 10%. People under a certain income level get a GST rebate check four times a year and foreign tourist can get a rebate too (save yer receipts). In America this kind of federal sales tax would raise a lot of money on gasoline alone, no more monthly healthcare insurance payments of hundreds of dollars and many would like that.
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Already included in bernies bill are many novel taxes such as this. It amounts to 1.6 trillion dollars per year. Even if we accept this study and say that his plan would cost 3 trillion per year, that would increase the deficit by 1.4 trillion dollars with little left to squeeze out of the wealthy. I'm all for taxing the wealthy anyway but with a deficit above 2.5 trillion dollars, we get massive taxes on the middle class and nothing left for any other progressive agenda such as a green new deal that would actually create jobs and stimulate the economy. M4A would eliminate a million jobs and give doctors a pay cut.

A much better idea would be to expand Medicare to all who actually want it. I don't want it.
 
hanimmal

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
I'm mostly worried about funding for medical innovation being wiped out. Super Bacteria are no joke.

And we are the ones doing almost all of it.
 
DIY-HP-LED

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
hanimmal said:
I'm mostly worried about funding for medical innovation being wiped out. Super Bacteria are no joke.

And we are the ones doing almost all of it.
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Regulate antibiotics internationally, if we banned penicillin for a decade it would be as effective as when it was first used, rotate through a spectrum of antibiotics and stop feeding them to animals by the fucking ton to put weight on livestock. Drug resistance is dropped out of the bacterial genome fairly quickly with absence of use. This is a resource management issue more than anything else, we need to husband the use of these drugs to maintain their effectiveness.
 
DIY-HP-LED

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
abandonconflict said:
3 trillion dollars per year is still more than 4 times the military budget.
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Heathcare is the single biggest ticket item for those countries that provide it.

how many gallons of gasoline are sold in the us per year - Google Search

www.google.com

Just did a quick google search on how much gasoline the usa uses a year. Say 100 billion gallons of it @ $3 a gallon was was taxable at 10%
that's 30 billion, a 5% tax would yield 15 billion, on non commercial gasoline alone.

140.43 billion gallons

According to the U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA), Americans consumed 140.43 billion gallons of gasoline in 2015, or about 384.74 million gallons each day. That is down from the all-time high of 390 million gallons per day set in 2007.Jan 14, 2017

I will stand to be corrected, you seem to have done your homework and I'm just dabbling in this policy area. There are many kinds of single payer systems in use however and I figure in America those people with plans who like them will be accommodated by the democrats, everything has to get through congress first. Only Donald rules by decree and fear, everybody else talks things over and reaches some kind of consensus, the democrats are fairly evenly split between moderates or the right wing and the new, new deal left wing.
 
BurtMaklin

BurtMaklin

Well-Known Member
abandonconflict said:
I'm sure we have 30 trillion dollars lying around somewhere...
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Seriously, what are you not getting? Do you know how saving money works? How much would you save from not having to pay a million redundant salaries that cost everyone money?

What American industries and Americans pay right now is 450 billion more per year, INCLUDING the 30 trillion, or 35 trillion, or 49 trillion you keep yammering on about. There is no extra cost for M4A there is a net savings. We all get that it will cost YOU more. Feel good about paying your proportionate share for a better society your child will have every opportunity to benefit from, including you and your entire family instead of curmudgeoning about "free stuff".
 
DIY-HP-LED

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
abandonconflict said:
A much better idea would be to expand Medicare to all who actually want it. I don't want it.
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It might be provided as a basic service (medicare for all) that a private plan would be layered on top of, providing even more benefits than before, your employer pays hundreds of dollars a month for healthcare, if these costs were dramatically lowered you might even get a raise!
 
abandonconflict

abandonconflict

Well-Known Member
BurtMaklin said:
Seriously, what are you not getting? Do you know how saving money works? How much would you save from not having to pay a million redundant salaries that cost everyone money?

What American industries and Americans pay right now is 450 billion more per year, INCLUDING the 30 trillion, or 35 trillion, or 49 trillion you keep yammering on about. There is no extra cost for M4A there is a net savings. We all get that it will cost YOU more. Feel good about paying your proportionate share for a better society your child will have every opportunity to benefit from, including you and your entire family instead of curmudgeoning about "free stuff".
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I'm sure there's 30 trillion dollars lying around somewhere...
 
abandonconflict

abandonconflict

Well-Known Member
DIY-HP-LED said:
It might be provided as a basic service (medicare for all) that a private plan would be layered on top of, providing even more benefits than before, your employer pays hundreds of dollars a month for healthcare, if these costs were dramatically lowered you might even get a raise!
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Better yet, it will probably get shot out of the sky because it would require a super majority which will never happen in America for such huge middle class tax hikes.

Not that a Canadian would be paying taxes in the United States. I'm sure there's 30 trillion dollars lying around somewhere...
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
BurtMaklin said:
Seriously, what are you not getting? Do you know how saving money works? How much would you save from not having to pay a million redundant salaries that cost everyone money?

What American industries and Americans pay right now is 450 billion more per year, INCLUDING the 30 trillion, or 35 trillion, or 49 trillion you keep yammering on about. There is no extra cost for M4A there is a net savings. We all get that it will cost YOU more. Feel good about paying your proportionate share for a better society your child will have every opportunity to benefit from, including you and your entire family instead of curmudgeoning about "free stuff".
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Exactly right. The US spent about 35 trillion in the last decade and is due to pay much more in the next ten years if nothing changes.

There are some extra services in Benie's bill that would add to that 35 trillion dollar bill, but you have it about right. What Bernie is going after is the whole thing. The healthcare plans that unions and workers strove to earn would be taken away and replaced with nothing but a promise from a Senator who has done nothing in 12 years.

More than a hundred million people like their healthcare plans. Bernie says if he's elected they would lose those plans for a vague promise. Does this sound like a good way to beat Trump?
 
abandonconflict

abandonconflict

Well-Known Member
Look at all the bull shit memes. If Medicare is better than private insurance, why not make it optional?

I'm sure there's 30 trillion dollars lying around somewhere.
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
Padawanbater2 said:
View attachment 4484760


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https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1230646371851497472
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As you said, Bernie did nothing of significance -- zero bills that make a difference to anybody -- were authored by Sanders and passed into law over twelve plus years as senator.

100 million people who like their health care plan, people who worked hard to gain that benefit including union workers, would have it stripped from them for a vague promise by a Senator who has done nothing of significance.

Does this sound like a good way to beat Trump in a close election? What are you? A Putin troll?
 
Padawanbater2

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
As you said, Bernie did nothing of significance -- zero bills that make a difference to anybody -- were authored by Sanders and passed into law over twelve plus years as senator.

100 million people who like their health care plan, people who worked hard to gain that benefit including union workers, would have it stripped from them for a vague promise by a Senator who has done nothing of significance.

Does this sound like a good way to beat Trump in a close election? What are you? A Putin troll?
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Why did you need to lie about union workers losing their healthcare if M4A is enacted? Two union reps in the previous comment are in a much stronger position to speak about it, being members/leaders of actual unions

Providing millions of people with healthcare, increasing VA benefits, raising millions of blue collar workers wages, voting against the Iraq war, are all significant achievements. You're trying to push a false narrative about Sanders record of accomplishments because you don't like the guy and his supporters hurt your feelings on the internet

Apparently many Americans believe what Sanders is doing is a good way to beat Trump, and many of his competitors in the Democratic primary do too, seeing as he's leading by a significant margin in national polls, has already won two out of two contests, and is likely to win Nevada and potentially South Carolina, and has successfully steered the narrative within the Democratic party in a more progressive direction

If Sanders wins a plurality of delegates, we will finally get to answer a question you and I have been debating about for years; Would the Democratic party rather win with Sanders or will the super delegates nominate someone else and lose to Trump?

Personally, I'm looking forward to that, because it looks like Sanders is going to win a plurality of delegates and it'll be a contested convention
 
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