your full of it ... please go away, this is NOT the HPS section of rollitup/.
new to leds and have questions..
- Thread starter ReAlNy27
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your full of it ... please go away, this is NOT the HPS section of rollitup/.
bicit
Well-Known Member
You'll never get mid 40's with a gavita in real world conditions either.
1: All HID lamps experience depreciation and spectrum shift as they age. The moment you turn it on the efficiency starts to diminish. It may START at 40+% efficiency, but if you consider average efficiency over the lifetime of the bulb, that number is much lower.
2: 60-75% of the photons being emitted are going in the wrong direction. Necessitating the use of reflectors. The material that gavita uses may be 97% efficient, however that does not mean the REFLECTOR(as an assembly) is 97% efficient. Reflectors that need to be serviced regularly in order to maintain optimum reflectively. In the case of gavita they actually deteriorate and need to be replaced regularly....
3: You're talking about NEW BULB efficiency, not overall system efficiency. Don't forget to account for ballast losses.
No it's not practical for the average joe to buy 65% efficient emitters. However it's perfectly attainable to build a LED lamp that exceeds 50% efficiency in real world conditions AND experience almost no lumen depreciation or spectrum shift. Even optic LED panels will last over a decades worth of flower cycles before hitting the LM-70 rating of the vero series. The people running passive 23 watt CXB3590's will likely never need a new light for the rest of their life.... When driven that softly the LM-70 rating is practically irrelevant. For commercial producers (of any crop) that's in it for the long haul, that last part is very very attractive.
Yes new tech will come out, and the old panels will be 'outdated' but that doesn't mean that they become irrelevant. 55%+ percent efficiency is nothing to sneeze at....
Rahz
Well-Known Member
Makes perfect sense. If you run a lamp to it's LM70 then the average assuming 45% efficiency at the start with would be 38% over time. That's 380 par watts from a 1000w lamp. If the lamp is 2 feet above the canopy then you have a 4 foot spread of direct light representing a 90 degree cone, which leaves 75% to be reflected. So 95 watts of direct light. Assuming 90% reflectivity the remaining light 285 watts worth is reduced to 256 par watts for a total of 351 par watts or 35% efficiency. Vero version 1 was providing that several years ago!
bicit
Well-Known Member
Just thought I'd also point this out. That's also much higher, even after hitting the LM-70 point, than the average brand new 600w HPS sold in most of the cheap 'starter' packages sold online.... Most of those cheap HID's are only mid 30's before they start to depreciate. The lower power HID's are even worse, since not everyone can use a gavita 750/1000w bulb in their situation. Since they require 3' of space to the canopy.
littlejacob
Well-Known Member
Rahz
Well-Known Member
It's actually being generous. A 90 degree angle represents 25% of a circle, but a 90 degree cone projected from the center of a sphere would intersect less than 25% of the surface area of the sphere (spherical cap). I have no idea how to do the math on that but am sure it would be less than 25.
Yodaweed
Well-Known Member
Well stated sir, but even with it being more efficient the price point is unrecoverable, I want to use LEDs but if they are not reasonable priced I will hold off until they come down.
bicit
Well-Known Member
I don't know if I agree with that point either. You may not make up the difference in electrical savings alone. However, you will save on replacement bulbs, which gets considerable over the years and contributes to a lot of waste.... Especially with designs like the gavita with disposable reflectors and top dollar bulbs. This is even more relevant to larger commercial ops that may have dozens or hundreds of lamps that would need to be replaced. LED's are for those who have plan to operate for the long haul.
Yodaweed
Well-Known Member
Nah that's untrue, you will never recover the cost they are just way too expensive upfront to be feasible in a larger grow/ commercial setting.
bicit
Well-Known Member
Replacement reflectors: $40 every year or two. $200-400 cost over the course of 10 years. Not counting the cost of labor. Plus the cost of a new bulb, again $100 every year or two, $500-1000 over the course of 10 years. Again not counting labor. Assuming the lamp ONLY draws 1000w and nothing more that's $5256 for electricity for a 12/12 flower cycle over the course of 10 years using the nation average cost of $0.12 per kw/h. A comparable 55% efficient LED panel would only need to use 691 watts of electricity in order to produce the same photon density. Or $3632 worth of electricity over the course of ten years again using a 12/12 flower cycle and the national average of $0.12 per kwh. That's a cost savings of 31% or $1624 over the course of ten years.Or $2324 difference in operating expenses alone over ten years before shipping/tax/labor/bulk discounts.....
And this is assuming ideal conditions.....
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Yodaweed
Well-Known Member
Replacement reflector? You are just making things up now , who replaces their reflectors...just clean it and move on....10 years to get any type of dent in the price....really not worth it you didn't talk about driver failures in LEDs and burnt out diodes...
bicit
Well-Known Member
On the note of reflectors- http://www.gavita-holland.com/helpdesk/knowledgebase.php?article=12
Even without the cost of the reflectors, that's still an operating cost difference of $2124... you can almost buy three PLC CX-300 LED panels for the price of replacement bulbs and electricity alone..... just saying.
Driver failures and burnt out drivers don't happen with quality builds. Only cheap Chinese cobs and drivers have low reliability rates.... Even the original optic grow light designs(before supra stepped in) were within operating specs of the LM-70 rating.... Using cree or bridgelux cobs with meanwell drivers is a proven combination.... But I mean if we really want to go there how about dropped bulbs, bulbs damaged in shipping, and lemons.... Those are hard to quantify though since they're random events...
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Rahz
Well-Known Member
From Gavita's website: Miro Aluminum reflectors don't oxidize quickly, but they get dirty by dust and deposits that are almost impossible to remove without damaging the reflective material. Calcium deposits (from damp and water), pesticides and sulfur are common deposits. Depending on how clean you work we recommend to change the reflectors once every 1 to 2 years. That can save you up to 10 % reflected light.
It's not necessary of course but using an old reflector isn't going to help the cost effectiveness if yield is factored in. Saving money using an old reflector isn't saving money.
Not sure about Cree but Bridgelux offers a 10 year warranty on their chip products. They're counting on the majority of their chips lasting over 10 years, and that's at nominal current and 85C. We generally run lower currents and cool the chips to around 40C. Meanwell offers a 7 year warranty on their HLG series drivers, and are counting on the majority of these drivers to last at least 7 years, possibly tucked into tight spaces with little airflow. You can't compare this type of product to cheapo LED lights.
It's not necessary of course but using an old reflector isn't going to help the cost effectiveness if yield is factored in. Saving money using an old reflector isn't saving money.
Not sure about Cree but Bridgelux offers a 10 year warranty on their chip products. They're counting on the majority of their chips lasting over 10 years, and that's at nominal current and 85C. We generally run lower currents and cool the chips to around 40C. Meanwell offers a 7 year warranty on their HLG series drivers, and are counting on the majority of these drivers to last at least 7 years, possibly tucked into tight spaces with little airflow. You can't compare this type of product to cheapo LED lights.
captainmorgan
Well-Known Member
I really think this recovery of LED cost is a just not as big of a issue as some say. I have a few friends that are old time growers with many years of HPS experience and after seeing my grows and the numbers they pull they couldn't wait to try LED.
SupraSPL
Well-Known Member
The 1000W DE bulb is ~40.5% efficient from 400-700nm, when brand new. That number is important to know, but it does not allow us to compare directly with the LED efficiency numbers because it is before reflector/glass losses, different spectrum and does not account for uniformity/spread.
If you believe these numbers from Growershouse, there is a lot of weakness from the Gavita reflector compared to the AC/DE reflector. If so, you need a $300 reflector to optimize the 1000W DE. That really changes the picture regarding up front cost comparison with LED.
Taking into account electrical savings from the lamp itself, electrical savings from the hood ventilation and tent ventilation, electrical savings from air conditioning, bulb and reflector replacement costs. Long runs of air tubing is expensive, loud, annoying and takes up working space. Constant heat plume blowing out of your grow op affects security?
On top of all that the COBs can put more light down than the HPS so you could increase your yield and maintain it for years. It is hard to put a price on that, rent/mortgage/taxes are expensive for most of us so space is very expensive.
One more for good measure, cooler canopy temps = faster finish and more frosting/flavor/potency and that is the end goal for most.
If you believe these numbers from Growershouse, there is a lot of weakness from the Gavita reflector compared to the AC/DE reflector. If so, you need a $300 reflector to optimize the 1000W DE. That really changes the picture regarding up front cost comparison with LED.
Taking into account electrical savings from the lamp itself, electrical savings from the hood ventilation and tent ventilation, electrical savings from air conditioning, bulb and reflector replacement costs. Long runs of air tubing is expensive, loud, annoying and takes up working space. Constant heat plume blowing out of your grow op affects security?
On top of all that the COBs can put more light down than the HPS so you could increase your yield and maintain it for years. It is hard to put a price on that, rent/mortgage/taxes are expensive for most of us so space is very expensive.
One more for good measure, cooler canopy temps = faster finish and more frosting/flavor/potency and that is the end goal for most.
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SupraSPL
Well-Known Member
You are correct that blue is currently the most efficient, and blue dies are used to make white LEDs. That said I run my white veg lamps at 64-72% and white flower lamps 64-68% so the efficiency of whites is not a problem. Overkill for experimentation's sake, but easily attainable cost $3.25-$3.60/PAR W for the emitters. For a reasonable up front cost, you can run at 56% for $1.73/PAR W emitter cost.
So if the OP looks at his options in a 4X4, $700 for a good 1000W AC/DE setup, $750 for a 56% DIY CXB lamp, or $1500 for a pair of 42% Optic 360W or similar.
Not sure if Optic is available looks like they are struggling with the transition? Area 51 says 5 weeks. PLC not in stock yet. GoGreenLEDs seems to have stock, CXB3070s at 49W ea (~45% efficient)
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BecauseIgotHigh
Well-Known Member
Not being a dickhead, but please read what I just wrote. Don't waste your time on any LEDs that are being advertise and being sold for growing, unless its a DIY led CREE/VERO or A51 Apache.
JimmyIndica
Well-Known Member
Anything over 800watts per 4x4 with the Vero/CXB would be overkill. IMO. And I rec using 4 smaller wattage fixtures over the bigger/higher wattage fixtures to control the output where u need it.
Optic is in process of changing there website/email. You can still order by phone last I knew.
For the companies that have stock? Optic,Heavenbright,Johnstons and gogreen are the ones I would look at.
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