newbie veganic question

asher2789

New Member
hi all, this is my first post here. i have seen the very long thread regarding veganics, and while ive browsed it for a bit, i simply dont have time to go through 130+ pages of mostly banter and silly arguments. ive also been lurking here for months without being registered, trying to see what i could learn from all the different threads here. if you wanna skip reading about myself and my grow (im quite the rambler) and just answer the question - i bolded it at the bottom lol.

anyways - about me. im a lifelong strict vegetarian (24 years and counting) who supports the ideas of veganism although i find that it is very difficult to maintain as a diet (especially when youre lazy and you prefer to eat out rather than cook at home :p and have an affinity for eating eggs). i decided to start my first grow this year, as i live in a perfect place for growing - i essentially live in a greenhouse. i have south facing greenhouse-like windows that get full sun all day. i have a very cool landlord who also smokes and is supportive of my growing. i grow other plants as well - i have a ton of house plants, as well as an indoor tomato plant (2ft of snow on the ground and im harvesting fresh tomatoes, amazing), peppermint plant, and basil. theyre all doing awesome. im even growing a blood orange tree from seed of a blood orange i bought and ate - fun times and delicious!

as for my grow - i have 5 plants, all in veg. one was gifted to me from a friend (headband) and is older than the other 4 by about 6 weeks or so - the other 4 (frisian dew, c99, hawaii maui waui, lsd-25) i started from seed after learning from many mistakes trying to start seeds for like a month and failing. one of the biggest lessons i learned so far is that marijuana seeds do not like those 72 seed starter trays you can get from big box stores. nor do they seem to like fox farms seed starter mix... nor do any of my seeds really (i also attempted and failed to grow a variety of vegetables and fruits from seed in this tray - of 72 holes, only 2 plants actually popped up - a tomato plant and a ground cherry plant :( ).

anyways, after a bunch of false starts, all of my plants are doing good now. 3 of my plants (headband, hawaii maui waui, lsd-25) are in 5gal smart pots, the other 2 (frisian dew and c99) are in 2 gal smart pot transplanting pots. i plan on moving them outdoors (vermont outdoor tastes so good!) soon once we past frost risk and when theyre bigger and stronger. the 3 that are in the smart pots are in 50/50 FF ocean forest and happy frog soil - layered so that 1/3 is OF on the bottom, 1/3 is a 50/50 mix in the middle, and 1/3 at the top is HF so as not to nute burn the plants when theyre young. the 2 that are in the transplant pots are just in HF. this is before i found out about veganic growing. while it is too late to have a fully veganic grow this year (im growing as if outdoors - no lights, just natural), i would like to grow veganic from here on out, mostly due to personal ethical reasons.

so here in lies my question. my friend who gifted me the headband is an organic grower with many years of experience (not just with marijuana but with veggies, fruits, and herbs too), despite his young age. he recommended that i start adding blood meal to my plants to feed them (i was using FF big bloom) because at this stage of the grow they need nitrogen so they grow big and make up for lost time in my false starts earlier this season. i oppose this idea for two reasons - i have a very curious dog who will probably be made even more curious/destructive/eat my plants because of the smell, and im vegetarian and very put off by using animal byproducts (i know, FF uses animal byproducts). i bought organic cottonseed meal from espoma but havent used it yet and still have the receipt - i read online that it acidifies the soil too much. is that true? should i return it? what is the best VEGANIC replacement for blood meal? preferably something that doesnt smell strongly and attract my curious dog?

thanks! :bigjoint:
 

Rasta Roy

Well-Known Member
First off friend, don't layer your soil! Mix everything together evenly, cannabis roots do not move the way people that teach layering soil think they do.

Second, guanos are not vegan -^^^

Neem Cake or Neem Seed Meal is what you want my friend.

I make soil for growers in Michigan; here is the recipe for my vegan soil blend.

15% pine bark (can substitute peat moss, or coco coir)
10-15% worm castings
40% aeration (could be perlite, rice hulls, or course sand)
35% compost

Neem Cake or Neem Seed Meal 1/2 cup per cubic feet
Alfalfa Meal 1/2 cup per cubic feet
Soft Rock Phosphate 1/2 cup per cubic feet
Kelp Meal 1/2 cup of kelp meal per cubic feet
Langbeinite 1/4 cup per cubic feet

Top dress with more compost and alfalfa meal every four weeks.
 
Last edited:

Thai_Lights

Well-Known Member
First off friend, don't layer your soil! Mix everything together evenly, cannabis roots do not move the way people that teach layering soil think they do.

Second, guanos are not vegan -^^^

Neem Cake or Neem Seed Meal is what you want my friend.

I make soil for growers in Michigan; here is the recipe for my vegan soil blend.

15% pine bark (can substitute peat moss, or coco coir)
10-15% worm castings
40% aeration (could be perlite, rice hulls, or course sand)
35% compost

Neem Cake or Neem Seed Meal 1/2 cup per cubic feet
Alfalfa Meal 1/2 cup per cubic feet
Soft Rock Phosphate 1/2 cup per cubic feet
Kelp Meal 1/2 cup of kelp meal per cubic feet
Langbeinite 1/4 cup per cubic feet

Top dress with more compost and alfalfa meal every four weeks.
What is your recipe to re amend after a run?
 

Rasta Roy

Well-Known Member
What is your recipe to re amend after a run?
That can be a touch harder to pin down, because it can vary based on whatever the original components were, and the current consistency of the soil.

I definitely add more compost, more aeration as well. Usually in equal parts, in whatever amount is necessary to bulk the soil out after I remove the root balls.

Ill reapply kelp, neem seed meal, gypsum (I forgot to mention I use gypsum in the original recipe as well, 1/2 cup per cubic foot) and alfalfa meal all at 1/2 cup per cubic foot. Every other reamend I would add the Langbeinite and soft rock phosphate. If you're going for a vegan soil that is. If you're not of vegan principles I would ditch the rock phosphate for crab shell meal and fish bone meal.
 

DonTesla

Well-Known Member
I REALLY like Rasta Roys ratio's above, but that said, and just to add a tiny bit, since all you're looking for is a N source essentially, is to use Dandelion tea, or (vegetarian) urine, or just a touch more Kelp or Alfalfa meal.. I personally never have N def issues, especially if using a rich vermicompost. Every 2 or 3 years or so I run my kelp as high as 2 or 3% of total vol as thats whats recommended and that alone bumps it up from a 1/2 cup per cu ft to 3 cups per cu ft with amazing results. Of course at that rate, its usually in a water only style minus one tea and then no need to amend in year two.

But you may have an abundance of dandelions or seaweed, or even clean untreated grass clippings, which could be rush-composted for addition into your mix..
 

greasemonkeymann

Well-Known Member
so here in lies my question. my friend who gifted me the headband is an organic grower with many years of experience (not just with marijuana but with veggies, fruits, and herbs too), despite his young age. he recommended that i start adding blood meal to my plants to feed them (i was using FF big bloom) because at this stage of the grow they need nitrogen so they grow big and make up for lost time in my false starts earlier this season. i oppose this idea for two reasons - i have a very curious dog who will probably be made even more curious/destructive/eat my plants because of the smell, and im vegetarian and very put off by using animal byproducts (i know, FF uses animal byproducts). i bought organic cottonseed meal from espoma but havent used it yet and still have the receipt - i read online that it acidifies the soil too much. is that true? should i return it? what is the best VEGANIC replacement for blood meal? preferably something that doesnt smell strongly and attract my curious dog?

thanks! :bigjoint:
ok, so considering you have room outside, what you want to do, like yesterday is get some nettles plants, comfrey, aloe, dandelion, and alfalfa.
that's all you need past a healthy worm bin or compost pile (both driven by animals btw, but that's another argument)
remember the nitrogen % of bloodmeal is higher than damn near all vegan inputs, but the cool thing is you can add much more vegan nutrients to a grow without causing an toxicity issue, or an imbalance of cation lockout (assuming it's done somewhat responsibly)
also regular grass clippings are a good nitrogen source also.
you can go without kelp meal if you are using fresh comfrey and/or dandelion.
i don't like cottonseed or soybean meals, the cottonseed meal does in fact acidify a mix, and the soybean meal is almost exclusively from GMO'd fields of soy, and those are practically guaranteed to have been sprayed with monsantos-shit...
sadly a gmo'd soy field is damn near required to have been sprayed...
if you want to go and buy nutrients for the soil you'd be well off if you chose neem meal, alfalfa meal, and kelp meal.
but that all being said, i'd go with a nice fresh compost over nutrients bought.
a good compost will be loaded with every micro and macro you'll need to grow beautiful plants. Not to mention the microbial diversity to make it all work, worms, etc..
but when you look at the content of most plant based nutrients they are fairly balanced, and quickly available as well, so the allure is obvious
where as most animal based nutrients tend to be a lil unbalanced, minus maybe manures.. but when you think about that, cow manure is made of WHAT? so it's the same shit (literally)
oh, and like rasta said, never layer anything at all in a soil mix for cannabis.
well, past topdressing , and that's only if needed.
a realistic goal for a vegan grow is to as closely replicate mothernature as possible.
which considering that in nature plants only use their own past yrs detritus from it's previous season to "feed" the plant for the next season, and on and on, so replicating that in a vegan grow will be relatively simple.
assuming a compost pile is made of course.
 
Last edited:

greasemonkeymann

Well-Known Member
I REALLY like Rasta Roys ratio's above, but that said, and just to add a tiny bit, since all you're looking for is a N source essentially, is to use Dandelion tea, or (vegetarian) urine, or just a touch more Kelp or Alfalfa meal.. I personally never have N def issues, especially if using a rich vermicompost. Every 2 or 3 years or so I run my kelp as high as 2 or 3% of total vol as thats whats recommended and that alone bumps it up from a 1/2 cup per cu ft to 3 cups per cu ft with amazing results. Of course at that rate, its usually in a water only style minus one tea and then no need to amend in year two.

But you may have an abundance of dandelions or seaweed, or even clean untreated grass clippings, which could be rush-composted for addition into your mix..
now that's a conundrum eh?
is urine from a vegan person considered vegan...
hmmmm
course under that logic then a cow manure or horse manure would be vegan too, no?
 
Last edited:

Rasta Roy

Well-Known Member
now that's a conundrum eh?
is urine from a vegan person considered vegan...
hmmmm
course under that logic then a cow manure or horse manure would be vegan too, no?
I've consulted with some vegans on this issue and where the line is drawn! Lol, it can be confusing.

Animal by products that come from the meat industry are a big no no obviously. Naturally occurring animal by products (manures, hair, and feathers) however fall under a grayer area. Say you yourself, keep chickens, rabbits, cows, goats, random pasture animal, etc. Not for meat purposes, or mass dairy production; but for grazing, pet, or noncruelty based labor. Then those things would be okay to use. It is not okay to use those things if they come from mass production industries, egg producing, dairy, or slaughter house.

Bat guanos likewise, would not be considered vegan because the destruction of their habitat is often apart of its harvesting. Even if it is harvested sustainably, purchasing the product creates a demand for it, and that demand leads to destructive harvesting practices...so even sustainably harvested guanos are not vegan. Some vegans feel the same way about other naturally occurring animal products, even if they come from harm free sources. The use of them creates the demand for them, which in turn leads to more demand for them from less than kosher sources.

Long story short, human urine is vegan. As long it doesn't come from a human while he/she is being slaughtered, or create such a demand for the byproduct that it doesn't lead to more humans being slaughtered. Lol
 

greasemonkeymann

Well-Known Member
I've consulted with some vegans on this issue and where the line is drawn! Lol, it can be confusing.

Animal by products that come from the meat industry are a big no no obviously. Naturally occurring animal by products (manures, hair, and feathers) however fall under a grayer area. Say you yourself, keep chickens, rabbits, cows, goats, random pasture animal, etc. Not for meat purposes, or mass dairy production; but for grazing, pet, or noncruelty based labor. Then those things would be okay to use. It is not okay to use those things if they come from mass production industries, egg producing, dairy, or slaughter house

Bat guanos likewise, would not be considered vegan because the destruction of their habitat is often apart of its harvesting. Even if it is harvested sustainably, purchasing the product creates a demand for it, and that demand leads to destructive harvesting practices...so even sustainably harvested guanos are not vegan. Some vegans feel the same way about other naturally occurring animal products, even if they come from harm free sources. The use of them creates the demand for them, which in turn leads to more demand for them from less than kosher sources.

Long story short, human urine is vegan. As long it doesn't come from a human while he/she is being slaughtered, or create such a demand for the byproduct that it doesn't lead to more humans being slaughtered. Lol
ahhh man... yea...
now i can appreciate that sort of philosophy though...
but see what i mean?
a lil annoying isn't it?
i mean after all...
i just seem to come across allllll sorts of people around this town that are "vegan" but like cheese or milk, or have leather shoes, or purses, don't mind eggs, but they snootily will remind everyone around them multiple times a day that they are "vegan"...
i used to date this beautiful half Italian, half Lebanese girl (man she was nugget) but she was annoying as hell about her trendy-ass beliefs.. vegan, then pescatarian, then gluten free... fuck me..
she was damn cute though, so i let it slide for a bit..


so in reality, that sort of growing isn't vegan at all, the term "vegan" simply isn't applicable
i can appreciate that sort of philosophy though, i mean you know me, i'm allll about creating your own everything and trying to reduce as much energy/fuel/time as possible.

I just don't totally understand the lines drawn..
why is chicken used for eggs not acceptable?
or dairy cows?
meh..
 

Rasta Roy

Well-Known Member
ahhh man... yea...
now i can appreciate that sort of philosophy though...
but see what i mean?
a lil annoying isn't it?
i mean after all...
i just seem to come across allllll sorts of people around this town that are "vegan" but like cheese or milk, or have leather shoes, or purses, don't mind eggs, but they snootily will remind everyone around them multiple times a day that they are "vegan"...
i used to date this beautiful half Italian, half Lebanese girl (man she was nugget) but she was annoying as hell about her trendy-ass beliefs.. vegan, then pescatarian, then gluten free... fuck me..
she was damn cute though, so i let it slide for a bit..


so in reality, that sort of growing isn't vegan at all, the term "vegan" simply isn't applicable
i can appreciate that sort of philosophy though, i mean you know me, i'm allll about creating your own everything and trying to reduce as much energy/fuel/time as possible.

I just don't totally understand the lines drawn..
why is chicken used for eggs not acceptable?
or dairy cows?
meh..
Yeah man, it's kind of like a buffet of ideals for some people, they just do the parts they like.

Chicken used for eggs and dairy cows aren't acceptable because of the conditions they tend to be kept in, which can be terrible. But, I also know dairy farms that love their cows and treat them well. If the animals were in acceptable conditions it would be fine (in my opinion), but a demand in an industry will be met by those doing things ethically and those not. And since unethically doing things is cheaper and easier, creating a demand in those industries (even when shopping ethically) will lead to animals being treated poorly because not everyone is going to make those more positive choices. But that's only something you're going to hear from real vegans. A lot of people just stop eating meat and ice cream and eat gmo, pesticide sprayed soybean burgers instead. :(
 

Rasta Roy

Well-Known Member
In my opinion though vegans are defeating their own purpose. If your goal is to try to get rid of poor conditions for animals, opting out of the system, doesn't take enough money out of it to make a difference. Everyone on this forum, probably ate some meat, or something that came from an animal that lives it's life in a painful hell. Knowing nothing but sadness, suffering, and pain for all it's days (I eat meat but I don't lie to myself) Pushing for animal ethics reforms, and reforming the way we eat (at least us Americans) would do a lot more. 20 piece chicken nuggets is not a practice that we can keep up! Lol
 

DonTesla

Well-Known Member
Well said, Rasta Roy, its too bad these big subsidies are making poor quality food cheaper and cheaper, conditioning us to think that that is the price of normal food. Meanwhile quality food is going up in price and down in quality in many places, because its a rarity now, plus its harder to produce and stay certified.

All the more reason we ALL need to grow heirlooms at home, preserve the seeds, and to start and be a part of community gardens as well..

Long live the compost guys!!
 

Rasta Roy

Well-Known Member
Well said, Rasta Roy, its too bad these big subsidies are making poor quality food cheaper and cheaper, conditioning us to think that that is the price of normal food. Meanwhile quality food is going up in price and down in quality in many places, because its a rarity now, plus its harder to produce and stay certified.

All the more reason we ALL need to grow heirlooms at home, preserve the seeds, and to start and be a part of community gardens as well..

Long live the compost guys!!
Yeah, the concept of cheap food, means the price of actual quality food goes up for no arbitrary reason. Well, reasons for sure...but you could pick them apart pretty quickly if you put them under scrutiny.

I'm in Peckham, England right now with my wife. And it is such pleasant culture shock walking and seeing all the small produce stands. I have never seen so many produce stands in a three block radius. They are everywhere, it's awesome. I walk down the street at home and I'll walk by two mcdonalds, three different sub places, etc. Y'all know what an American street looks like. Lol
 
Top