Obama wins, we lose. McCain wins, we lose.

Johnnyorganic said:

Correct. And Marx was right.
The only problem as I see it is the founders explicitly sought to avoid establishing a democracy. Nowhere is democracy mentioned in the founding couments. The United States of America was established as a constitutional republic.

Democracy was a product of the progressive reforms of the early 20th century.

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interesting thank you

The power of the people cannot be stolen, only given away. And guns are not necessary to defeat a government. Gandhi proved both of these things.

undertheice said:

the problem would seem to be that the government is not the same as the people. where private enterprise must conform to the marketplace and regulation, government has built such a shell around itself that it is its only oversight. the more power we invest in government, the more impermeable that shell becomes. we have given over the education of our children, our investments for our old age, our safety and security. now there are some who would hand over the medical and financial wellbeing of our entire nation as well. considering the waste and corruption inherent in such a massive bureaucracy, it hardly seems rational to equate the two.

there are problems with any change. taking back a bit of the power that has been stolen from us is no exception, but it would seem to be worth the trouble.

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I disagree... I feel like the government and the corporations and the 100's of millions of people (americans) who bring food to their table via these corporate entities are all so interwoven that they are the same creature...

The government is the ideology created by the people... the people of the government create laws to HELP the corporations run smoothly...

the corporations employ people and create comforts for the people..

Then, instead of taking responsibility for THEIR actions, THE PEOPLE blame the corporations.. and the governments...

it is so easy to stop frankenstein.. just unplug him.. but instead.. people blame him from one corner of their mouth while suckling from his cock with the other corner of their mouth...

We created frankenstein.. and yet we seem to take ZERO responsibility.. instead we trick ourselves by calling him THE government.. or THOSE corporations...

It's all just people.. and until we stop killing animals/living beings at an alarming rate to sustain our LIVES.. the world will continue to suffer... LOL

true dat

iloveyou

Bongulator said:

The power of the people cannot be stolen, only given away. And guns are not necessary to defeat a government. Gandhi proved both of these things.

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EXACTLY!!!!!!!

and when we BLAME the governement and blame corportaions.. THAT is exactly what we ARE doing.. we are MAKING up an US vs THEM story.. we are creating our own nemesis.. .. we are giving away OUR control... we are dividing OURSELVES.... we are giving away OUR power....

like a MORON that thinks his stuffed animal ate his dinner... when really, he just ate it 10 minutes ago..

iloveyou

Garden Knowm said:

EXACTLY!!!!!!!

and when we BLAME the governement and blame corportaions.. THAT is exactly what we ARE doing.. we are MAKING up an US vs THEM story.. we are creating our own nemesis.. .. we are giving away OUR control... we are dividing OURSELVES.... we are giving away OUR power....

like a MORON that thinks his stuffed animal ate his dinner... when really, he just ate it 10 minutes ago..

iloveyou

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I agree and would surmise that this behavior is exactly what started the totalitarianism in george orwell's 1984

Johnnyorganic said:

Correct. And Marx was right.
The only problem as I see it is the founders explicitly sought to avoid establishing a democracy. Nowhere is democracy mentioned in the founding couments. The United States of America was established as a constitutional republic.

Democracy was a product of the progressive reforms of the early 20th century.

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Bingo...I have argued this point with countless people. And what's the difference between a Republic and a Democracy? A Republic is bound by "Rule of Law" outlined in said Constitution whereas a Democracy is not. A Democracy is bound by "the needs of the many" and squelches the right of the individual.

A wise man was once asked after he left a courthouse many years ago in Philadelphia after putting his name to an important document. He was asked the question...

"What have you created?". He replied..."A Republic, if you can keep it."

Days Between said:

I agree and would surmise that this behavior is exactly what started the totalitarianism in george orwell's 1984

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yes, and the exact people who complain.. and "fight the good fight" are the ones who are creating the "problem"...


The very problem they have identified, they are also creating.. and supporting..

Just because ONE thinks they are fighting an enemy does not mean they are fighting an enemy.. often it is this exact fighting that is giving this very enemy an EXISTENCE!

Nor am I suggesting that PEOPLE stand by and take it in the arse.. but prohibition was the creator of the mafia.. and I'll give "you" 10 guesses who/what created "terrorists"...

iloveyou

Garden Knowm said:

yes, and the exact people who complain.. and "fight the good fight" are the ones who are creating the "problem"...


The very problem they have identified, they are also creating.. and supporting..

Just because ONE thinks they are fighting an enemy does not mean they are fighting an enemy.. often it is this exact fighting that is giving this very enemy an EXISTENCE!

Nor am I suggesting that PEOPLE stand by and take it in the arse.. but prohibition was the creator of the mafia.. and I'll give "you" 10 guesses who/what created "terrorists"..

iloveyou

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I give up. What?

Days Between said:

I give up. What?

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We did. Take a hard look at the events that have transpired in the region after the fall of the Ottoman Empire and the foreign policies of "The West".

Garden Knowm said:

yes, and the exact people who complain.. and "fight the good fight" are the ones who are creating the "problem"...

The very problem they have identified, they are also creating.. and supporting..

Just because ONE thinks they are fighting an enemy does not mean they are fighting an enemy.. often it is this exact fighting that is giving this very enemy an EXISTENCE!

Nor am I suggesting that PEOPLE stand by and take it in the arse.. but prohibition was the creator of the mafia.. and I'll give "you" 10 guesses who/what created "terrorists"...

iloveyou

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The American Mafia was imported with the influx of Italian immigrants in the late 19th Century. The mafia was well entrenched by the time prohibition started.

However, Prohibition was an absolute BOOMTIME for all organized crime. The Mafia rose to the challenge and thrived. Your analogy with the War on Terror is apt here. Al Queda was in existence before 9-11. In fact they had already directly attacked us abroad - three times, I think. 2 U.S. Embassys and a warship.

But it was not our immediate, swift, and mighty response to 9-11 which energized the bad guys and swelled their ranks. Instead, there was a modest influx of new recruits going to Afghanistan.

It was Iraq. We drew out the enemy on ground of our choosing and defeated them. It was a key reason for going into Iraq, I think. Fight them where it is advantageous to us. Now we are prevailing in Iraq. The winner chooses the field of battle based on his needs, not the needs of the enemy.

Garden Knowm said:

yes, and the exact people who complain.. and "fight the good fight" are the ones who are creating the "problem"...


The very problem they have identified, they are also creating.. and supporting..

Just because ONE thinks they are fighting an enemy does not mean they are fighting an enemy.. often it is this exact fighting that is giving this very enemy an EXISTENCE!

Nor am I suggesting that PEOPLE stand by and take it in the arse.. but prohibition was the creator of the mafia.. and I'll give "you" 10 guesses who/what created "terrorists"...

iloveyou

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I'll cover your 10 and raise you 14.....unless your scaaaared....


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VTXDave said:

We did. Take a hard look at the events that have transpired in the region after the fall of the Ottoman Empire and the foreign policies of "The West".

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What have you done personally, Dave, as a "Westie"?......drive, live.......yooou can stoo-oop.

Johnnyorganic said:

The American Mafia was imported with the influx of Italian immigrants in the late 19th Century. The mafia was well entrenched by the time prohibition started.

However, Prohibition was an absolute BOOMTIME for all organized crime. The Mafia rose to the challenge and thrived. Your analogy with the War on Terror is apt here. Al Queda was in existence before 9-11. In fact they had already directly attacked us abroad - three times, I think. 2 U.S. Embassys and a warship.

But it was not our immediate, swift, and mighty response to 9-11 which energized the bad guys and swelled their ranks. Instead, there was a modest influx of new recruits going to Afghanistan.

It was Iraq. We drew out the enemy on ground of our choosing and defeated them. It was a key reason for going into Iraq, I think. Fight them where it is advantageous to us. Now we are prevailing in Iraq. The winner chooses the field of battle based on his needs, not the needs of the enemy.

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Hear, hear........

Peace always follows victory.....

Who did we defeat again? The Taliban? In Afghanistan, as strong as ever. Osama? On the border area between Pakistan and Afghanistan hanging out. As far as I can tell, we haven't defeated anyone. Oh, maybe Iraq in Al Qaeda is gone, or mostly gone. But they didn't even *exist* before we were in Iraq, so at best we've reduced their numbers to what they were before we invaded. The real enemy, in Afghanistan, is as strong as ever, so I wouldn't break out the victory parades.

Oh, okay, we defeated Saddam Hussein. That was a victory of sorts. At monumental cost and with massive waste of resources and tax dollars. I mean, really, two trillion dollars to get one guy? A little extravagant for a nation whose economy is in tatters. Like buying a coffee for $25,000 or something. Yeah, great coffee and all, but just a *little* too expensive when money is tight.

But hey, it's the next generation's tax dollars that will be paying for all the waste, and since I don't have any kids, no big deal to me.

obama will better this country and take us out of this "depression","recession",and "economicblunder".

mccain will just follow the bush plan

obama wants to pull the troops out in a matter of 16months

mccain wants to fight and win the unnessesary war

last and not least the whole world wants obama,he gave a speech yesterday in berlin and had a total of 250,000ppl show up in support,comming from a former country filled with hate and oppression.thats saying something right there,the world wants a better leader.

the rest of the world looks to us for answers,we are the dominate country in the world,we recently surpassed russia to b the strongest country in the world. we can fail and rise above it asap ie katrina,manilla,and the tsunami.

ccodiane said:

What have you done personally, Dave, as a "Westie"?......drive, live.......yooou can stoo-oop.

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Are you trying to tell me that the US Government and "The People" are not the same? I am an American. Bush is my POTUS as was every single POTUS who came before him. We are a representative republic and therefore my government's actions are a direct reflection upon me. You don't want to go there with me, trust me. I happen to be one of the few people that places the onus of responsibility on the shoulders of "us". It is the People that have allowed this travesty to happen. I look at events in the world and tend to ask the question "Why did this happen?" and then research it out to its fundamental roots. OBL was once allied with us and now he's our enemy. Why? How did that happen? I know why.

But for the sake of argument since you're clearly lacking in the history department, I'll throw you a bone...

This one shouldn't be too tough....Why did the Iranian people storm the US Embassy back in the 70's and oust the Shah of Iran?

I'm new to this place, but it is odd to me that any marijuana user and/or grower, would ever consider voting for McCain.

Not saying Obama is "the answer," but isn't hasn't McCain promised to pretty much stay the course in the drug war, while maybe with Obama we could get (at minimum) the Federal Government to leave the States who have passed medical MJ laws alone?

On the victory thing again. Ya know, I've thought about it and at least from our perspective, I'm not so sure killing Saddam was actually a victory. Why? Because while Saddam was a brutal tyrant, he was also a major enemy of Iran's. Defeating him, and replacing him with a primarily Shi'ite government makes it likely that in the end, Iraq and Iran will be very good friends.

Instead of counterbalancing themselves, Iran and Iraq will likely end up as allies. That doesn't mean that Iraq will necessarily be our enemy, but it very well *could* mean that. And if so, that'd mean that we not only paid 2 trillion dollars to get one dude, but that we also got, free of charge, a doubly strengthened enemy in the region with no counterbalancing hostile neighbor. That is no victory for us.

Bongulator said:

On the victory thing again. Ya know, I've thought about it and at least from our perspective, I'm not so sure killing Saddam was actually a victory. Why? Because while Saddam was a brutal tyrant, he was also a major enemy of Iran's.

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He was also an enemy of OBL. In fact, after Iraq invaded Kuwait, OBL extended to the Saudi gov't the offer that he and his organization would "take out" Hussein. They declined the offer.