One Libertarian who gets it

ElBarto

ElBarto

Well-Known Member
Act III: Man, we libertarians really fell for it

For a long time, I was kind of amazed by the libertarian rhetoric of the GOP, the way that somebody could argue for torture and corporate welfare and unchecked police powers and massive deficits and a global empire, and then follow it up with “Because I believe in limited government and the free market.” The cognitive dissonance wasn’t what bugged me (I’m cynical enough to take it as a given that politicians know how to lie) but rather that they would even bother appealing to the small government crowd that they feel free to screw over. I mean, aren’t we, like, a miniscule faction?

And then it hit me–it was never about us. All those dog whistles that libertarians respond to whenever Republicans blow the whistle? Those were for other people. Second amendment? It’s a cultural thing, not principle. Free markets? Intellectual cover for corporate welfare. Limited government? This is their way of saying to the subsidized farmers of the Great Plains and the employees of the Military-Industrial Complex and all the other beneficiaries of GOP-style redistribution “Don’t worry, you aren’t a welfare recipient like all those city folks that I bash. You’re better than that. You’re a hearty, self-reliant person who supports limited government.”

I already knew that all of the stances that the libertarians like were just there for other elements of the GOP coalition. But I used to think that the “limited government” rhetoric was a way of fooling us. Nope, it was never about us. The fact that too many of us were fooled was a coincidence (one that Republicans probably still laugh about over drinks). It was for everyone else in the coalition. The fact that we fell for it was just a coincidence. The fact that some of us actually provided them with pet intellectuals was just icing on the cake.

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Just like the radical Christianists, and for very similar reasons, many self-identified libertarians fell for the GOP rhetoric over and over again. Even after twelve years of rampant expansion of government, infringement of liberties at home and military adventurism abroad, and a sky-rocketing national debt, some are still parroting the (grand old) party line.

I guess it's to be expected. Having invested so heavily in the lies, it must demand huge reserves of courage to look squarely at the damage done and admit some portion of responsibility for it, even if only to one's self.

I'm certainly glad I'm not in their shoes.
 
VTXDave

VTXDave

Well-Known Member
Heh...What a crock of shit. Maybe he fell for it...I didn't. It there's any Libertarian out there that would support FISA, CALEA, PATRIOT, the war, our occupation of countries in the name of American Empire...I'd tell them straight to their face..."You are not a Libertarian, you're a neo-con".

It would behoove this author to grow a brain before he puts his feeble thoughts to the written word.
 
ElBarto

ElBarto

Well-Known Member
That's funny. I thought we had some libertarians around here. Maybe it's just a label of convenience for guys who like Rush and Coulter but are embarrassed by their association with the losing team.
 
medicineman

medicineman

New Member
ElBarto said:
That's funny. I thought we had some libertarians around here. Maybe it's just a label of convenience for guys who like Rush and Coulter but are embarrassed by their association with the losing team.
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Libertatians are for liberty for themselves, fuck everyone else, That is about all I've gleened from their rhetoric.
 
Johnnyorganic

Johnnyorganic

Well-Known Member
Libertarians favor liberty for everyone. But with liberty comes responsibility. Anyone demanding liberty without responsibility is fucked in the first place.

Liberty represents the freedom to choose one's own destiny. It also means the freedom to succeed or fail. Your life, your choice.
 
K

KillerWeed420

Well-Known Member
Libertarians are the true compassionate conservatives. There main phylosophy is that the government has no constitutional authority to have these numerous government agencies. The feds have only one job guaranteed by the constitution,national defense. Everything else they have been doing is illegal. I've been libertarian for over 20 years and I'm hoping people will finally see that the major 2 parties are nothing but lieing, cheating crooks.
 
puffdamagikdragon

puffdamagikdragon

Well-Known Member
This is interesting to me. I didn't really knwo the difference between the liberatirans and the unitarians and god-knows what else. I am an independant. Back from the Ross Perot days, oh if only we made independants like that again.

I DO like Ron Paul, tho, all over the place.
 
ViRedd

ViRedd

New Member
Johnnyorganic said:
Libertarians favor liberty for everyone. But with liberty comes responsibility. Anyone demanding liberty without responsibility is fucked in the first place.

Liberty represents the freedom to choose one's own destiny. It also means the freedom to succeed or fail. Your life, your choice.
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And sadly, these are the reasons why the concept of liberty is such a frightening thought to so many.

Vi
 
Johnnyorganic

Johnnyorganic

Well-Known Member
hornedfrog2000 said:
Who did you vote for in 2000, and 2004? LOL
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Party affiliation is irrelevant when it comes to who anyone votes for in a GENERAL election.

Bill Mahr and Camille Paglia both voted for Obama, but it does not make either of them any less Libertarian until they say so.

It is for each individual to choose who deserves their vote, just as it is for each person to identify with a political party.

The Libertarian party shat in its nest with its nomination of Bob Barr. As a result, they did not get my vote the general election.

I would not vote for Bob Barr any more than I would vote for John Sidney McCain or Barack Hussein Obama.
 
medicineman

medicineman

New Member
Johnnyorganic said:
It's irrelevant who anyone votes for in a GENERAL election.

Bill Mahr and Camille Paglia both voted for Obama, but it does not make either of them any less Libertarian until they say so.

It is for each individual to choose who deserves their vote, just as it is for each person to identify with a political party.

The Libertarian party shat in its nest with its nomination of Bob Barr. As a result, they did not get my vote the general election.

I would not vote for Bob Barr any more than I would vote for John Sidney McCain or Barack Hussein Obama.
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So, it was a none of the above thingy, eh? Well that is justified when one has no valid opinion I guess.
 
Johnnyorganic

Johnnyorganic

Well-Known Member
medicineman said:
So, it was a none of the above thingy, eh? Well that is justified when one has no valid opinion I guess.
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I would not classify it as none of the above.

I have listed who I did not vote for. I have not mentioned who I did vote for.

To me all opinions are valid, even if I disagree.

Do I interpret your statement correctly that my opinion is not valid?

If so, please elaborate (this should be good).
 
medicineman

medicineman

New Member
Johnnyorganic said:
I would not classify it as none of the above.

I have listed who I did not vote for. I have not mentioned who I did vote for.

To me all opinions are valid, even if I disagree.

Do I interpret your statement correctly that my opinion is not valid?

If so, please elaborate (this should be good).
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Oh, my friend Johnny, it was all in Jest, as I know you are filled with opinions, many of which I vehemently disagree with. Every once in a while you actually come up with something I can agree with, although my memory is not long enough to remember the last time,~LOL~. I guess that without opposites, life would be pretty boring. I forget, are you rich or poor or somewhere in between? Seems to me you take the rich mans side of most arguements that would assume you are either rich or have a mental disorder. I'll guess rich as I wouldn't want to think you are crazy.
 
Johnnyorganic

Johnnyorganic

Well-Known Member
medicineman said:
Oh, my friend Johnny, it was all in Jest, as I know you are filled with opinions, many of which I vehemently disagree with. Every once in a while you actually come up with something I can agree with, although my memory is not long enough to remember the last time,~LOL~. I guess that without opposites, life would be pretty boring. I forget, are you rich or poor or somewhere in between? Seems to me you take the rich mans side of most arguements that would assume you are either rich or have a mental disorder. I'll guess rich as I wouldn't want to think you are crazy.
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Fair enough.

Since you asked, I'll share. I'm broke, not poor.
Broke is a temporary condition, poor is a state of mind. - Sir Richard Francis Burton
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I just recently sold my start-up to a competitor. I did not recoup my original investment even before considering attorney fees, accountants and taxes. After five years, I did a little math and discovered that my take home income divided by the hours worked has been embarrassingly low. But even so, I would be considered rich because the business made money. So I got out while the getting was still reasonably good.

I am doing what I should have done in the first place and leaving the city. Kind of a Green Acres thing. I will start over with a new business, but not for a while. I have spent the last week moving my possessions, and starting the first of the month I begin a job. I will work for someone else and stay under the Chosen One's tax radar until the storm passes.

I am voluntarily keeping my income low. I am depriving the parasites the fruits of my labor. In other words, I am shrugging.
 
medicineman

medicineman

New Member
Johnnyorganic said:
Fair enough.

Since you asked, I'll share. I'm broke, not poor.
I just recently sold my start-up to a competitor. I did not recoup my original investment even before considering attorney fees, accountants and taxes. After five years, I did a little math and discovered that the hours worked divided by my take home income has been embarrassingly low. But even so, I would be considered rich because the business made money. So I got out while the getting was still reasonably good.

I am doing what I should have done in the first place and leaving the city. Kind of a Green Acres thing. I will start over with a new business, but not for a while. I have spent the last week moving my possessions and starting the first of the month I begin a job. I will work for someone else and stay under the Chosen One's tax radar until the storm passes.

I am voluntarily keeping my income low. I am depriving the parasites the fruits of my labor. In other words, I am shrugging.
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I'd call it surviving in a cruel and unkind world. At least you gave it your all, at least I assume you did. I guess having the rich man's point of view didn't work for you, as in "Think and Grow rich". Maybe instead of "shrugging" as you call it, you could accept your position in life and work on improving it. Volunteering to keep your income low doesn't sound very appealing, and I doubt if the "Tax Man" is after your ass, well unless you did something stupid and didn't file on some misguided notion that you could beat old Uncle out of his due. There are a few tax companies that say they can get you out for pennies on the dollar, that may be a comfort to you, but anyway, good luck and I hope you come back strong, who knows, maybe someday I can buy stock in your prosperous company and get rich right along with you.
 
Johnnyorganic

Johnnyorganic

Well-Known Member
medicineman said:
I'd call it surviving in a cruel and unkind world. At least you gave it your all, at least I assume you did. I guess having the rich man's point of view didn't work for you, as in "Think and Grow rich". Maybe instead of "shrugging" as you call it, you could accept your position in life and work on improving it. Volunteering to keep your income low doesn't sound very appealing, and I doubt if the "Tax Man" is after your ass, well unless you did something stupid and didn't file on some misguided notion that you could beat old Uncle out of his due. There are a few tax companies that say they can get you out for pennies on the dollar, that may be a comfort to you, but anyway, good luck and I hope you come back strong, who knows, maybe someday I can buy stock in your prosperous company and get rich right along with you.
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I'm out clean. I paid all required taxes since the beginning so an IRS negotiating company was never of any interest to me.

I am very pessimistic about our economy so I got out. It's that simple. Being a business owner (even when times are good) was far more stressful than I ever imagined. I saw what is coming and I made a decision. A sound one in my opinion.

However, I was easily able to secure a position in spite of the current unemployment figures. But then again, I low-balled my salary requirement and I received a great recommendation from my previous employer (me). Some would call that unfair. Cry me a river.

Eventually I will try again, but this country must prove to me it is worthy. I will not be denigrated as selfish or greedy for trying to build something of value. In truth, I am sort of looking forward to my new working situation. Coming in at 8:00 a.m and working an eight hour day, then clocking out at 5:00 p.m. without a care about meeting payroll or accounts receivable.

So I shrugged; and now the looters will pass me by.
 
ViRedd

ViRedd

New Member
Johnnyorganic said:
Coming in at 8:00 a.m and working an eight hour day, then clocking out at 5:00 p.m. without a care about meeting payroll or accounts receivable.
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Man, I wonder what that would be like? Only eight hours a day, weekends off, paid sick leave, paid vacations, paid health care, paid life insurance ... nine holidays a year off. Geeze, Johnny ... good luck with that. Reminds me of my last salaried job 32 years ago. Been an independent contractor ever since.

Vi
 
Johnnyorganic

Johnnyorganic

Well-Known Member
ViRedd said:
Man, I wonder what that would be like? Only eight hours a day, weekends off, paid sick leave, paid vacations, paid health care, paid life insurance ... nine holidays a year off. Geeze, Johnny ... good luck with that. Reminds me of my last salaried job 32 years ago. Been an independent contractor ever since.

Vi
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Well I intend to find out. Laughing my decision off as an aberration would be a mistake. It is the leading edge of a trend. I made my move now because I know all tax increases will be retroactive. The Obama Effect goes much deeper than increased firearm sales. More and more achievers will come to the same conclusion I did and voluntarily shift their incomes down. They too, will shrug. Productivity will take a nosedive and the Gross Domestic Product (GDP) will reflect it.

The achievers who can afford it will depart these shores. Those like me, who cannot, will simply stop working so hard. And as the pool of 'rich' becomes ever smaller, so will the income dividing line between rich and poor. My guess is that $75,000 will be the point where middle class meets rich. That's what it was during the Democratic primaries.

It sucks for my former employees, I refused to drug test, but my competitor does. Privacy is of no concern to the new boss.
 
NorthwestBuds

NorthwestBuds

Well-Known Member
Johnnyorganic said:
Well I intend to find out. Laughing my decision off as an aberration would be a mistake. It is the leading edge of a trend. I made my move now because I know all tax increases will be retroactive. The Obama Effect goes much deeper than increased firearm sales. More and more achievers will come to the same conclusion I did and voluntarily shift their incomes down. They too, will shrug. Productivity will take a nosedive and the Gross Domestic Product (GDP) will reflect it.

The achievers who can afford it will depart these shores. Those like me, who cannot, will simply stop working so hard. And as the pool of 'rich' becomes ever smaller, so will the income dividing line between rich and poor. My guess is that $75,000 will be the point where middle class meets rich. That's what it was during the Democratic primaries.

It sucks for my former employees, I refused to drug test, but my competitor does. Privacy is of no concern to the new boss.
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Sorry to hear you've given up JO. Not me. I will never give up on my dreams. BTW urine substitution is a 100% guaranteed way to pass any drug test.
 
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