Organic or Synthetic

flodas

flodas

Well-Known Member
Im currently using a synthetic nutrient solution to my soil grow.

Is it beneficial to add Worm humus batguano and dolomite lime to add that lil extra to the microorganisms or is it a waste caue of the synthetic nutrients i use or is it just a myth?

I have a second question if someone got the knowledge. I know that in organic soilmixes you dont ph the water. Do i have to ph water or will the dolomite take care of that my water is 7PH i will adjust the water just when i see a deficiency or problem. /Flodas
 
Richard Drysift

Richard Drysift

Well-Known Member
Nope it's not a myth. Synthetic nutes or rather chelates derived from dissolved salts will dry out the bodies of the microbes you need to rely on to decompose the goodies in the soil and make them available to plants for uptake. This is not a big deal to the plants as they are fine with available synth nutrients ready to go but it kind of defeats the purpose of organic growing in the first place. If you use nutes it won't seem detrimental but over time you'll have to rely on them completely as the soil slowly becomes sterile. Any nutrient with NPK values higher than 5 will usually upset the fungi especially in bloom phase when containers are fungal dominated. That's why a "water only" strategy is the best for organic growing and a soiless medium is best for using synth nutes IMO. That's also why alotta noob soil growers think their soil is deficient after 6 weeks; it's not it's just no longer "alive." Tap water containing chloramine and fluoride is also a culprit. You can always add back more organic materials like compost or compost teas if your soil becomes dead to increase or restart microbial activity/populations but if you go back to using nutes or water that isn't pure again you are back to square one in a short time.
Lime can be used to adjust soil ph but it takes a whole lot of it to move the needle on a soil probe. The combination of organic material and minerals are what keeps the ph in balance in an organic mix and most bagged soil should be ph balanced already so the short answer is no you should not have to ph the water. Runoff ph tells you nothing btw; you really do need a decent quality soil probe to check the actual soil ph at the root zone with accuracy. Most growers just don't bother; ph is pretty much a non issue in soil.
One thing to note about organic soil is that it's always easier to put everything the plants will need in the mix from the start or at transplants than it is to treat deficiencies later on as they occur. If your plant exhibits a deficiency in organic soil it's already kind of too late.
 
AliCakes

AliCakes

Well-Known Member
Most of what Richard said! I don't use a water only method, but the "nutrients" I add are very infrequent and natural. Ex: products like Garrett's Juice, or an alfalfa tea, a little molasses, or if my pH is drifting too high, a bit of apple cider vinegar in my water.

Having said that, at least 70% of the time, I only water. I spend a good deal of time and money building a beautiful, well rounded living soil that has just the feel I want, then I let it sit in a compost tumbler for months before potting. I don't want to sterilize that with salts. pH can be an issue in soil, but only if it gets WAY out of line. In hydro, pH will cause lock out pretty fast.

You can grow great quality with either method, but personally, I would ditch the soil OR ditch the nutes. I tell everyone to pick the method you understand best and go with it completely. If you don't really understand the biology/chemistry of either grow style, pick what interests you more and put time into learning THAT. And you will get better with each grow. Make your grow style work with your lifestyle.....don't work harder than you have to.
 
Johnei

Johnei

Well-Known Member
Richard Drysift said:
Nope it's not a myth. Synthetic nutes or rather chelates derived from dissolved salts will dry out the bodies of the microbes you need to rely on to decompose the goodies in the soil and make them available to plants for uptake. This is not a big deal to the plants as they are fine with available synth nutrients ready to go but it kind of defeats the purpose of organic growing in the first place. If you use nutes it won't seem detrimental but over time you'll have to rely on them completely as the soil slowly becomes sterile. Any nutrient with NPK values higher than 5 will usually upset the fungi especially in bloom phase when containers are fungal dominated. That's why a "water only" strategy is the best for organic growing and a soiless medium is best for using synth nutes IMO. That's also why alotta noob soil growers think their soil is deficient after 6 weeks; it's not it's just no longer "alive." Tap water containing chloramine and fluoride is also a culprit. You can always add back more organic materials like compost or compost teas if your soil becomes dead to increase or restart microbial activity/populations but if you go back to using nutes or water that isn't pure again you are back to square one in a short time.
Lime can be used to adjust soil ph but it takes a whole lot of it to move the needle on a soil probe. The combination of organic material and minerals are what keeps the ph in balance in an organic mix and most bagged soil should be ph balanced already so the short answer is no you should not have to ph the water. Runoff ph tells you nothing btw; you really do need a decent quality soil probe to check the actual soil ph at the root zone with accuracy. Most growers just don't bother; ph is pretty much a non issue in soil.
One thing to note about organic soil is that it's always easier to put everything the plants will need in the mix from the start or at transplants than it is to treat deficiencies later on as they occur. If your plant exhibits a deficiency in organic soil it's already kind of too late.
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Amazing Post! Absolutely.
(There is no possible way I could have condensed all that pertinent precise info into that size post like what was done right here in my life, I would of wrote like 7 chapters to convey the same info as Mr. Richard Drysift. That's what I'm thinkin in the back of my head. Respect.)
 
Richard Drysift

Richard Drysift

Well-Known Member
I liked TWM; it's a fascinating read but also kind of boring. It's like a primer in earth science so it's kind of a lot to digest. I thought the Revs book was much simpler and is geared towards experienced MJ growers who want to get off of using bottles. True living organics is a bit different than no till but many of the concepts are the same; TLO is about bringing old school outdoor growing methods inside under lights. Check it out:

https://www.amazon.com/True-Living-Organics-All-Natural-Marijuana/dp/1931160961
 
whitebb2727

whitebb2727

Well-Known Member
Richard Drysift said:
I liked TWM; it's a fascinating read but also kind of boring. It's like a primer in earth science so it's kind of a lot to digest. I thought the Revs book was much simpler and is geared towards experienced MJ growers who want to get off of using bottles. True living organics is a bit different than no till but many of the concepts are the same; TLO is about bringing old school outdoor growing methods inside under lights. Check it out:

https://www.amazon.com/True-Living-Organics-All-Natural-Marijuana/dp/1931160961
Click to expand...
I don't know. I bought the revs first book and it was junk.

I agree though it is a lot to digest with TWM.
 
W

Wetdog

Well-Known Member
flodas said:
Im currently using a synthetic nutrient solution to my soil grow.

Is it beneficial to add Worm humus batguano and dolomite lime to add that lil extra to the microorganisms or is it a waste caue of the synthetic nutrients i use or is it just a myth?

I have a second question if someone got the knowledge. I know that in organic soilmixes you dont ph the water. Do i have to ph water or will the dolomite take care of that my water is 7PH i will adjust the water just when i see a deficiency or problem. /Flodas
Click to expand...
I can give insight on at least one of your questions.

I've used the same basic mix for close to 45 years, for both salts and organic growing. Learned by rote in 1972, it is a basic peat moss, perlite, pine bark fines, lime and a small amount of composted manure.

From this basic mix one could go organic or chem salts, depending on further amendments. Learning by rote, there wasn't much "why" to the ingredients or amounts, but mostly "how" to build from scratch with no written recipe or amounts for that matter. The "why" came 30+ years later when I started studying soil more closely.

The dolomite lime (A small shovel scoop for a full wheelbarrow amount of mix), was added because that's the way I was taught. Found out the why's later and both were VERY important.

The first was, naturally pH buffering for the very acidic peat moss and to a lesser degree, the pine bark fines.

The second was just as essential at that time. The Peters, at that time (Jack's Classic today), was formulated to be used in a limed mix and contained no Ca to speak of and depended on the mix to supply Ca.

Have no idea about the present formulation, or other synthetic nutes.

And, yes, with dolomite added to the mix there will be no need to pH the water. The soil will buffer it to match the soil's pH. No worries there.

AFA the guano, EWC and stuff, IDK and you'll have to experiment. I know that we added a shovel full of sheep manure (back then), to "wake up" the mix as it was explained to me, but also knowing full well that Peters was going to be the fert of choice. LOL, used to buy that shit in 25lb bags. Again, IDK, but from casual observation over the years, I just can't get fully behind the "synthetic nutes will totally wipe out your microherd". Pesticides and herbicides for sure, but nutrients only rate a "perhaps" from me.

In any event, it will be a great benefit to add the dolo to your mix.
 
Maersk

Maersk

Active Member
@Wetdog Ive experienced continuing beneficial fungi growth when using coco and pure nutes... dont know if thats classed within the micro herd, but the nutes definitely didnt stop them
 
flodas

flodas

Well-Known Member
Wetdog said:
I can give insight on at least one of your questions.

I've used the same basic mix for close to 45 years, for both salts and organic growing. Learned by rote in 1972, it is a basic peat moss, perlite, pine bark fines, lime and a small amount of composted manure.

From this basic mix one could go organic or chem salts, depending on further amendments. Learning by rote, there wasn't much "why" to the ingredients or amounts, but mostly "how" to build from scratch with no written recipe or amounts for that matter. The "why" came 30+ years later when I started studying soil more closely.

The dolomite lime (A small shovel scoop for a full wheelbarrow amount of mix), was added because that's the way I was taught. Found out the why's later and both were VERY important.

The first was, naturally pH buffering for the very acidic peat moss and to a lesser degree, the pine bark fines.

The second was just as essential at that time. The Peters, at that time (Jack's Classic today), was formulated to be used in a limed mix and contained no Ca to speak of and depended on the mix to supply Ca.

Have no idea about the present formulation, or other synthetic nutes.

And, yes, with dolomite added to the mix there will be no need to pH the water. The soil will buffer it to match the soil's pH. No worries there.

AFA the guano, EWC and stuff, IDK and you'll have to experiment. I know that we added a shovel full of sheep manure (back then), to "wake up" the mix as it was explained to me, but also knowing full well that Peters was going to be the fert of choice. LOL, used to buy that shit in 25lb bags. Again, IDK, but from casual observation over the years, I just can't get fully behind the "synthetic nutes will totally wipe out your microherd". Pesticides and herbicides for sure, but nutrients only rate a "perhaps" from me.

In any event, it will be a great benefit to add the dolo to your mix.
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Great answear thank you. Ur right 30 years ago ppl didint have the knowlege as today. Im gona add some more amendments bat guano and some molasses and go like u sayd sounds good to me. That syntetich nutes dont wipe out the colon. May i ask how often you water with nutes? and do you water to runoff each time? Sorry for al the questions i hope you have time to answear me / Flodas
 
Johnei

Johnei

Well-Known Member
Wetdog said:
I can give insight on at least one of your questions.

I've used the same basic mix for close to 45 years, for both salts and organic growing. Learned by rote in 1972, it is a basic peat moss, perlite, pine bark fines, lime and a small amount of composted manure.

From this basic mix one could go organic or chem salts, depending on further amendments. Learning by rote, there wasn't much "why" to the ingredients or amounts, but mostly "how" to build from scratch with no written recipe or amounts for that matter. The "why" came 30+ years later when I started studying soil more closely.

The dolomite lime (A small shovel scoop for a full wheelbarrow amount of mix), was added because that's the way I was taught. Found out the why's later and both were VERY important.

The first was, naturally pH buffering for the very acidic peat moss and to a lesser degree, the pine bark fines.

The second was just as essential at that time. The Peters, at that time (Jack's Classic today), was formulated to be used in a limed mix and contained no Ca to speak of and depended on the mix to supply Ca.

Have no idea about the present formulation, or other synthetic nutes.

And, yes, with dolomite added to the mix there will be no need to pH the water. The soil will buffer it to match the soil's pH. No worries there.

AFA the guano, EWC and stuff, IDK and you'll have to experiment. I know that we added a shovel full of sheep manure (back then), to "wake up" the mix as it was explained to me, but also knowing full well that Peters was going to be the fert of choice. LOL, used to buy that shit in 25lb bags. Again, IDK, but from casual observation over the years, I just can't get fully behind the "synthetic nutes will totally wipe out your microherd". Pesticides and herbicides for sure, but nutrients only rate a "perhaps" from me.

In any event, it will be a great benefit to add the dolo to your mix.
Click to expand...
Great post!

The synthetically derived salts #1 are already in their lowest biological form, therefore the microbes have nothing to extract from them with the help of enzymatic action as occurs in nature and this is also where the microbes get a part of their energy from stealing some of what was digested to fuel their own growth and life and cell division, so the microbe colonies will either go dormant, or #2 die, because the salts dry them out, just the same as if you ate salt and get thirsty due to osmotic principles. Synthetic nutrients do indeed impede microbe colonies and their usefulness is negated. Consistant use of synthetic salts in soil will shift the soil to become sterile.

This is also why some nutrient companies sell in their synthetic nutrient lineups bacteria/fungal inocculation products along with their synthetics, you're always killing so you always need to add, the colonies never get big and/or established and you have to always add more. Microbe colonies are constantly being impeded in their growth and life patterns.
 
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chemphlegm

chemphlegm

Well-Known Member
I once did a little experiment with worms. I put some in my well water some in an organic fertilizer mix/water, and some in my res water.
they didnt care about the water and only a little in the organic fertilizer water AN ME tea but flipped out in my res water(625ppm at the time). the next day only one of the five were moving much at all but the other two bowls were alive and discovering escape routes.
I know enough now form this little ditty, dont much care about the science involved and I aint blind. I imagine the millioons of microbes I spend my life cultivating doing the same thing every time I use mineral salts water.
Outdoors I dont think such a big impact because of the unlimited moisture/life always cycling. no salts in my little buckets anymore.
loved the convenience but in my area the demand is for organic grown and now I know why, wouldnt smoke it any other way.:bigjoint:
 
W

Wetdog

Well-Known Member
flodas said:
Great answear thank you. Ur right 30 years ago ppl didint have the knowlege as today. Im gona add some more amendments bat guano and some molasses and go like u sayd sounds good to me. That syntetich nutes dont wipe out the colon. May i ask how often you water with nutes? and do you water to runoff each time? Sorry for al the questions i hope you have time to answear me / Flodas
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Hold on cowboy. I don't mix organics and salts except in an emergency. Had a few of those getting the mix dialed in.

Constant use WILL do harm to the micro herd! Pick one or the other, but not both.

Haven't watered with nutes at all for the last couple of years and when there was emergencys happening it was still less than 5x/year watering with nutes.

IDK, thought I was just addressing the dolomite questions, not nutes and microbes. LOL

Johnei and CP's replys covered the issue pretty well and said it much better than I could.:weed:
 
flodas

flodas

Well-Known Member
Wetdog said:
Hold on cowboy. I don't mix organics and salts except in an emergency. Had a few of those getting the mix dialed in.

Constant use WILL do harm to the micro herd! Pick one or the other, but not both.

Haven't watered with nutes at all for the last couple of years and when there was emergencys happening it was still less than 5x/year watering with nutes.

IDK, thought I was just addressing the dolomite questions, not nutes and microbes. LOL

Johnei and CP's replys covered the issue pretty well and said it much better than I could.:weed:
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oyy my bad i missread english isint my base langugae as you may notice haha! I will take that in mind with the dolomite then thanks :)
 
T

Trichometry101

Well-Known Member
Why use salts, there's no point at all.

Buy a jug of Mills, add some premixed mycos and lactose bacillus, your bud will be better than ever. And you will never touch salts again. Then you can start mixing your own stuff and saving money,and getting even better bud. Then you're "hooked on organics"
 
GrnMonStr

GrnMonStr

Well-Known Member
Richard Drysift said:
I liked TWM; it's a fascinating read but also kind of boring. It's like a primer in earth science so it's kind of a lot to digest. I thought the Revs book was much simpler and is geared towards experienced MJ growers who want to get off of using bottles. True living organics is a bit different than no till but many of the concepts are the same; TLO is about bringing old school outdoor growing methods inside under lights. Check it out:

https://www.amazon.com/True-Living-Organics-All-Natural-Marijuana/dp/1931160961
Click to expand...
+1 on TLO, I think its a must have if you are going organic. I got TWM from a local library and I had a hard time enjoying it. I bought the 2nd addition by the Rev TLO and I would recommend TLO, because he gives a good explanation on every organic additive and what they can do for you and your plants. He also has a lot of experience with organics and does much to explain it all and its easy to read. He adds a bunch of great tips also that will help you grow good.

I think in all you should have about three books, because TLO's focus is organic food. A book on breeding may be good, and one of Ed Rosenthal's books would round it all out and cover all growing issues. If you were growing Hydro then maybe substitute TLO for a book on that topic.
 
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GrnMonStr

GrnMonStr

Well-Known Member
flodas said:
Im currently using a synthetic nutrient solution to my soil grow.

Is it beneficial to add Worm humus batguano and dolomite lime to add that lil extra to the microorganisms or is it a waste caue of the synthetic nutrients i use or is it just a myth?

I have a second question if someone got the knowledge. I know that in organic soilmixes you dont ph the water. Do i have to ph water or will the dolomite take care of that my water is 7PH i will adjust the water just when i see a deficiency or problem. /Flodas
Click to expand...
How far along are you? And what are those nutes that you are using? I think 7PH is good at the flower stage and 6-6.5 PH at veg but the range is 6-7PH for soil. I grow in organic soil, and I PH all the time cause I had to refresh myself on all the basics, since I took a few years off from growing. I use some organic bottle nutes and one dropped my water PH from 6.5 to 5.0 with only one tblsp. per gallon. However the fox farms big bloom did not drop my PH, so had I not been checking I would not have known.
 
GreenSanta

GreenSanta

Well-Known Member
whitebb2727 said:
Pretty much what Richard said.

I would finish this grow with the bottles and make up a batch of organic soil in the mean time.

This is a good book.
View attachment 3964315
This is a good thread to read but long.

https://www.rollitup.org/t/recycled-organic-living-soil-rols-and-no-till-thread
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This is more than a good book, it is a must read. IMO, it is one of the most important gardening book. If you were only allowed to read one book to become a successful gardener, I d say that this would be the one.

I found it was an easy read compared to teaming with nutrients. I have started teaming with nutrients twice and have not finished yet. I think I will try Teaming with Fungi then I ll go back to teaming with nutrients.
 
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