SpicySativa
Well-Known Member
Cann- check out the later pages of my Cheese Quake grow log (link in my signature). I'm actually harvesting then this evening.
Organic Soil, Microorganisms, and pH
- Thread starter Cann
- Start date
Cann
Well-Known Member
Alright will do...
so is the consensus we have come to that pH is important regardless of soil biology???
I'm confused again...
My copy of Teaming with Microbes just arrived today....think I'll give the whole thing a read and then come back to this discussion. I'm hoping TWM will shed some enlightenment.
Anyone who still thinks pH is of little significance in organics?
I'd love to hear the other side argued....
so is the consensus we have come to that pH is important regardless of soil biology???
I'm confused again...
My copy of Teaming with Microbes just arrived today....think I'll give the whole thing a read and then come back to this discussion. I'm hoping TWM will shed some enlightenment.
Anyone who still thinks pH is of little significance in organics?
I'd love to hear the other side argued....
SpicySativa
Well-Known Member
I used to argue the other side before I started using Super Soil. But, I was using significantly more aerated tea (bacterial AACTs, fungal AACTs, guano teas, occasional brewed Earth Juice, etc). Results were great and I didn't get lockouts. Teas were applied at pH's ranging from 4.5 or 5 (fungal) to about 8 (bacterial).
I think the Super Soil just reacts a little differently, and I'm still dialing it in.
I think the Super Soil just reacts a little differently, and I'm still dialing it in.
SpicySativa
Well-Known Member
NOTE: Before I switched to Super Soil, I was adding 1-2 TBSP of dolomite lime per gallon of soil. This is MUCH MORE than the Super Soil recipe calls for. This probably has something to do with it.
SpicySativa
Well-Known Member
I haven't done enough growing in Super Soil to know whether it needs additional dolomite lime. Obviously it works fine for most folks as is, but it makes sense to me that the recipe could be tweaked a little here and there based on each persons individual needs and what's in their tap water.
I wouldnt mess with the recipe too much unless you really find that it needs it as spicy said dude... which you really shouldnt if you follow the instructions, other than you actually seeing it needs something more.. theres no real reason to change it unless you are using a different base than roots or something.... I use FF for the most part and I amend my base that I keep separate with 1 tbs per gal of lime but I only add a little extra to the SS base before mixing because I think FF needs it along with more perlite.... but that recipe sub put out with roots is tried and true... if you do it exactly the way sub says you should be fine.. The problems people have are usually because they do something a little different or change something because they think it needs it before testing their theory and once you mix it obviously you cant take it out...
However.... one tip I do have or what I will be doing next time even though it really doesnt pertain to what we are talking about here... but I am renting a cement mixer from home depot or one of those rental places next time I mix a batch.... Any of the problems I had this round I think I can attribute to not being mixed properly or maybe a little too much got caught in one spot.... A few look like they have some salt build up and the only thing that can possibly cause that would be the azomite I think...
However.... one tip I do have or what I will be doing next time even though it really doesnt pertain to what we are talking about here... but I am renting a cement mixer from home depot or one of those rental places next time I mix a batch.... Any of the problems I had this round I think I can attribute to not being mixed properly or maybe a little too much got caught in one spot.... A few look like they have some salt build up and the only thing that can possibly cause that would be the azomite I think...
farmerjoe420
Well-Known Member
I think the lime has everything to do with it. ever since I started using 1cup per cubic ft I don't ph anything. I think super soil needs more lime.
Sampras1489
Active Member
I too am interested in this. Have a few jillybeans going through something similar to what spicys cheesequakes did with what seems to me is a ph issue. I have leaves curling INWARD almost shriveling in some spots. I too use aact. Hmmm, some expert advise would be nice....
Sampras1489
Active Member
Not at this moment, and my girls got worse overnight, straight curling in. Take your hand, palm up, acting as if your fingers were the leaves. It looks as if the fingers (leaves) are trying to "clinch a fist". I'm really thinking its a ph issue so I watered with straight h20 at 6.3.
Will report back to you how they respond...
Will report back to you how they respond...
farmerjoe420
Well-Known Member
try topdressing with lime and see if they don't get better. I'm betting they will.
jcurtis912
Well-Known Member
Ok ill chime in on this one. I usually do not join conversations that experts take part in because i feel im not worthy yet. But ill throw in my two cents. So i just recently graduated with a degree in environmental science 2 weeks ago, and a lot of my curriculum involved classes in soil science, geology, and biology to include microbiology.
So because of this i have learned of the devastating effects of chemicals on not only our food, but on the human body. Every trophic level realizes an increase in effects from the previous. To make it simple here is an example: If the soil has all types of VOC's (Volatile Organics), heavy metals, and carcinogens, the plant will take this up in concentration, and then grazing animals eat this, and it concentrates more, and then we eat these animals, that shit goes straight to our cells. Then we get cancer, heart disease, and all types of nasty ailments. So that is why i know, FOR CERTAIN, that organic is the only way to go, based purely on scientific evidence.
So for my senior project we did a study on the Los Cerritos Wetlands here in Long Beach, CA. I can send you a link to the study for those that are interested. The soil in this degraded wetland had a PH of about 8.0, mostly due to the salt in the soil, making it really alkaline. And the soil only had halophyte (salt loving) microorganisms. Invasive, salt-loving plants could grow here just fine, but the less salt tolerant native species were all but gone. So for the study we partitioned off a section, and added living compost to the soil to increase the microactivity, and mixed in some better soil. We took PH samples from all over the site, and the range was all over the place. From 4.0-8.5 was the range if i recall correctly. Two weeks later, we check the same sites after it had rained a little bit, and the range shrank to 5.6- 6.7. Our professor who is a soil scientist said that the microorganisms had a lot to do with that. They basically eat and poop the soil to the range they like. Now, there are a plethora of other factors to consider, but basically microorganisms and PH are closely related.
So for my home garden i use soil from the local organic garden. They make compost piles in the same areas, and have been for years. So i push aside the compost pile and get the soil that is directly underneath. Everything from the compost trickles down, and this soil is super dark and teeming with life. Im talking about there are june bugs, wood roaches, rollie pollies, and just all types of stuff in this soil. I use this in walmart bags, cause they cost 50 cents and work great. I have used this since my first grow when i had no idea what i was doing, and did everything completely wrong, and my stuff still came out dank. Every grow i do comes out better and better, my leaves on all my plants when from a lime green when i first started growing, to a dark everest forest green, ALL the way up to harvest. I have NO LEAVES FALLING OFF. Did i mention that i reuse my soil? I havent been back garden in months. The only thing i add in is the vermicompost from my worm bin, which adds even more microorganisms, and i use worm compost tea that i brew from that same worm bin.
I only water my plants once every 3 or 4 days, because my soil is so rich that it holds moisture very well. Some might say that isnt good, however it works for me. The only problem i battle is fungus gnats, and from what i understand they munch on roots. But everytime i harvest and dump the rootball, it is very well formed, and it doesnt seem to be struggling.
I NEVER PH ANYTHING. I couldnt tell you what my PH is at anytime in my grow. I dont aerate my tap water which comes straight out of my sink here in Long Beach, CA. I could go on the water dept website and get the data, however my school study showed me it really didnt matter, as long as the water isnt super contaminated. I showed one of my friends my setup, which includes a grow tent in my garage. I get the same reaction everytime once i unzip it; "Oh my God", which is referring to the sweet smell of healthy marijuana. This time in particular, it was cheese candy, which im sure you all know has a sweet candy smell.
So in conclusion, i would like to say, these are just my own observations from a trained scientific mind, and should in no way be considered law. In the new year, im going to prove these things mathematically, using scientific/ mathematical/statistical correlations, and of course im going to share it with the RIU family. Thanx for reading.
So because of this i have learned of the devastating effects of chemicals on not only our food, but on the human body. Every trophic level realizes an increase in effects from the previous. To make it simple here is an example: If the soil has all types of VOC's (Volatile Organics), heavy metals, and carcinogens, the plant will take this up in concentration, and then grazing animals eat this, and it concentrates more, and then we eat these animals, that shit goes straight to our cells. Then we get cancer, heart disease, and all types of nasty ailments. So that is why i know, FOR CERTAIN, that organic is the only way to go, based purely on scientific evidence.
So for my senior project we did a study on the Los Cerritos Wetlands here in Long Beach, CA. I can send you a link to the study for those that are interested. The soil in this degraded wetland had a PH of about 8.0, mostly due to the salt in the soil, making it really alkaline. And the soil only had halophyte (salt loving) microorganisms. Invasive, salt-loving plants could grow here just fine, but the less salt tolerant native species were all but gone. So for the study we partitioned off a section, and added living compost to the soil to increase the microactivity, and mixed in some better soil. We took PH samples from all over the site, and the range was all over the place. From 4.0-8.5 was the range if i recall correctly. Two weeks later, we check the same sites after it had rained a little bit, and the range shrank to 5.6- 6.7. Our professor who is a soil scientist said that the microorganisms had a lot to do with that. They basically eat and poop the soil to the range they like. Now, there are a plethora of other factors to consider, but basically microorganisms and PH are closely related.
So for my home garden i use soil from the local organic garden. They make compost piles in the same areas, and have been for years. So i push aside the compost pile and get the soil that is directly underneath. Everything from the compost trickles down, and this soil is super dark and teeming with life. Im talking about there are june bugs, wood roaches, rollie pollies, and just all types of stuff in this soil. I use this in walmart bags, cause they cost 50 cents and work great. I have used this since my first grow when i had no idea what i was doing, and did everything completely wrong, and my stuff still came out dank. Every grow i do comes out better and better, my leaves on all my plants when from a lime green when i first started growing, to a dark everest forest green, ALL the way up to harvest. I have NO LEAVES FALLING OFF. Did i mention that i reuse my soil? I havent been back garden in months. The only thing i add in is the vermicompost from my worm bin, which adds even more microorganisms, and i use worm compost tea that i brew from that same worm bin.
I only water my plants once every 3 or 4 days, because my soil is so rich that it holds moisture very well. Some might say that isnt good, however it works for me. The only problem i battle is fungus gnats, and from what i understand they munch on roots. But everytime i harvest and dump the rootball, it is very well formed, and it doesnt seem to be struggling.
I NEVER PH ANYTHING. I couldnt tell you what my PH is at anytime in my grow. I dont aerate my tap water which comes straight out of my sink here in Long Beach, CA. I could go on the water dept website and get the data, however my school study showed me it really didnt matter, as long as the water isnt super contaminated. I showed one of my friends my setup, which includes a grow tent in my garage. I get the same reaction everytime once i unzip it; "Oh my God", which is referring to the sweet smell of healthy marijuana. This time in particular, it was cheese candy, which im sure you all know has a sweet candy smell.
So in conclusion, i would like to say, these are just my own observations from a trained scientific mind, and should in no way be considered law. In the new year, im going to prove these things mathematically, using scientific/ mathematical/statistical correlations, and of course im going to share it with the RIU family. Thanx for reading.
jcurtis912
Well-Known Member
A couple afterthoughts:
1. Just to clarify, Dr Landon taught me that PH is semi important for the plants, but really it is important for the microorganisms to do their work. They like the PH to be in a certain range. Microorganisms do all of the work for you as far as feeding the plant. So all this PH up and PH down putting your soil on a rollercoaster ride is probably doing more harm than anything else. Let nature do its thing, it has for billions of years without all of our silly human foolishness.
2. Dogs have been our companions since we were actually called human. Wolves and dogs split from an ancestor dire wolf. They became domesticated because they were once scavengers, and they would follow us around and eat our scraps, and get the leftovers from our kills in the wild. They have evolved alongside us, and as a result they have come to live in the same toxic chemical world that we have made for ourselves. The name for this place is called civilization. Everything is chemical based, from the food we eat, to the dashboard in your car, to the shoelaces in your chuck taylors. Dogs have developed THE EXACT SAME DISEASES as humans from Hip Dysplasia to Cancer, more than likely because they share our environment. Wolves in the wild, which are genetically similar to dogs do not have these ailments. So what does this mean? Minimize your chemical exposure. Go organic.
Again, i try to think like a scientist, but these are only MY observations.
1. Just to clarify, Dr Landon taught me that PH is semi important for the plants, but really it is important for the microorganisms to do their work. They like the PH to be in a certain range. Microorganisms do all of the work for you as far as feeding the plant. So all this PH up and PH down putting your soil on a rollercoaster ride is probably doing more harm than anything else. Let nature do its thing, it has for billions of years without all of our silly human foolishness.
2. Dogs have been our companions since we were actually called human. Wolves and dogs split from an ancestor dire wolf. They became domesticated because they were once scavengers, and they would follow us around and eat our scraps, and get the leftovers from our kills in the wild. They have evolved alongside us, and as a result they have come to live in the same toxic chemical world that we have made for ourselves. The name for this place is called civilization. Everything is chemical based, from the food we eat, to the dashboard in your car, to the shoelaces in your chuck taylors. Dogs have developed THE EXACT SAME DISEASES as humans from Hip Dysplasia to Cancer, more than likely because they share our environment. Wolves in the wild, which are genetically similar to dogs do not have these ailments. So what does this mean? Minimize your chemical exposure. Go organic.
Again, i try to think like a scientist, but these are only MY observations.
jcurtis912
Well-Known Member
Last afterthought:
Plants CANNOT take up nutrients in organic form. Ill repeat it again, PLANTS CANNOT TAKE UP NUTRIENTS IN ORGANIC form. Hard to believe right? I repeatedly missed this question on tests because i couldnt wrap my head around it. The nutrients must be mineralized.......by microorganisms....in order for the plants to use it. Ok thats it, last post, sorry for the hijack.
Plants CANNOT take up nutrients in organic form. Ill repeat it again, PLANTS CANNOT TAKE UP NUTRIENTS IN ORGANIC form. Hard to believe right? I repeatedly missed this question on tests because i couldnt wrap my head around it. The nutrients must be mineralized.......by microorganisms....in order for the plants to use it. Ok thats it, last post, sorry for the hijack.
Honestly.... I am thinking you have too much of something in your soil or whatever your feeding... Leaf curl can be caused by a couple things, #1 is heat (if I'm thinking right here), and the other is too much P or K, I cant remember which and I dont have the time to go looking for the answer for you at this point in time but I will post some pics of my CQ that is being grossly overfed at the moment, I should have sent her to 12/12 with no SS in the pot and waited until she asked for food, instead I just did the ole' 50% of the pot with SS like the rest of my plants. Only my CQ's are doing this and they are both light feeders which I dont really think jilly is so I dont know but its something to do a little research on, if I had the time right now I'd look into it more for you but get some pics up and someone will be able to tell you exactly whats going on..... I hope you get it straightened out...
jcurtis912
Well-Known Member
I have 5 Bhutan Thimpus going right now. They all got the exact same soil, and the exact same treatment. Two are very tall, two are medium size, and one is very short. They all have extremely spindly sativa leaves. The short one has this leaf curl your speaking out, so maybe it could simply be genetics. Otherwise the plant is very healthy.
I'm thinking thats your problem right there, treating all the plants exactly the same... No 2 plants (unless they're clones) are gonna feed/need the exact same thing as another strain... All strains have their own unique needs.... This is something I am learning as well at present time...
I'm in a mad dash trying to get out my door at this point in time and I just keep finding more threads to respond to like a fool but when I return I will post some pics of my plant with the leaf curl going on, I grabbed some last night....