Plant Stretch Problems....Help!

Can anybody help with an excessive amount of stretch in my aeroponic systems? I have 3 strains (mostly indica based) and cannot seem to reduce stretch. When I went to 12/12 when they were about 12" tall and they have gained almost 4 feet since then. Whassup wit dat????? I have plenty of lighting: (2) 400w HPS and (1) 600 HPS (covering 20sqft) neither of which are more than 6" away. I'm using GH 3 part and reduced GH Grow when I went to 12/12. My biggest problem is that with this amount of stretch the SCOG is out of the question.

These also seemed to take an awful long time to show flowers....maybe 3 weeks before I could identify the males. Judging from the flowers at this point they are going to take a lot longer to mature than expected.

Here are a few questions: I have an ocillating fan moving a LOT of air across them and wondered if they resisted shifting over to the flowering cycle because they're trying to firm up their stalks. Has anybody experienced this?

Lastly, I've been told that on the day I change to 12/12 I ought to give them al least 24 hrs of darkness to "trigger" the flowering. Any thoughts?

Any help would be appreciated.

interesting, mine grew almost 9inches in 1week of flowering. but i am also curiouse about the 24hr dark trick, i know A/N nuts makes something u give the plants for their first week of flower so they know to start making bud.

Thanks infamouse21. I wish I knew what was happening. So much for my pulley system....I've now screwed the lights directly to the ceiling, cut way down on the nitrogen, and tied the babies over again and again.

keep the lights close otherwise they will just keep streching.
advanced nutrients makes BUD BLOOD for makeing the plants bud as soon as u start flowering

gohydro said:

When I went to 12/12 when they were about 12" tall and they have gained almost 4 feet since then. Whassup wit dat?????

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Totally normal. Plants which have been in veg mode will take 3-4 wks to completely stop veg pattern growth, even if under 12/12 and on flowering nutes. They don't change growth pattern instantly once lighting and nutes are changed.

My clones are about 8" tall when they leave the clone box and go into the flowering area; they're about 40" on finishing in wk8, but they will have attained that height by the end of wk4, when they will fully stop gaining height.

These also seemed to take an awful long time to show flowers....maybe 3 weeks before I could identify the males. Judging from the flowers at this point they are going to take a lot longer to mature than expected.

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Also, fairly normal. However, if you're going to SoG or especially if you will ScrOG, you will need to establish mother plant/s which have been sexed (known to be female), and which are kept under veg cycle lighting. You don't want any possibility of males in your flowering area. Plants raised from seed must be grown to sexual maturity before they can be sexed. When they are about 6 wks from seed under veg lighting, you will begin to see preflowers appearing at the nodes. It is at this point that they can be sexed. I can see why a plant which was not sexually mature might take a long time to show flowers, even under 12/12 light.

Here are a few questions: I have an ocillating fan moving a LOT of air across them and wondered if they resisted shifting over to the flowering cycle because they're trying to firm up their stalks. Has anybody experienced this?

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No, osc fans don't have any effect on the shift to flowering.

Lastly, I've been told that on the day I change to 12/12 I ought to give them al least 24 hrs of darkness to "trigger" the flowering. Any thoughts?

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Not necessary at all. I've been putting clones (which came from mums on 24/7 lighting and also which have been kept under 24/7 light in the clonebox) directly into my 12/12 flowering area for a number of years.

Be patient. It just takes a little time for the plants to FULLY stop growing in veg mode when you change their lighting cycle to flowering- usually about 3 weeks. Doesn't happen instantly. However, it only takes a week or so for flowering mode growth characters (i.e. bud development) to begin to appear. As time progresses into your 3rd wk of flowering, the veg mode characters will disappear; plants will stop gaining height and they will then start packing on bud weight.

Hey Al...thanks for all the advise. I'm new to this board but have seen many of your posts. Glad you were the one to answer.

No need to worry about "mom" here...I'm a big boy. The only reason I started with beans rather than clones was another member of my co-op screwed up and killed the 30 killer bubblegum clones I gave him. Mannnn...I was pissed.

I didn't mean to sound impatient as I've been doing this for quite a while. It just amazes me when I see some of the pics of these "dwarf like" babies (no, not always low ryder) and wonder how it was achieved. I specifically selected an indica strain in order to keep plant height low and these have gained at least 4 feet since 12/12. It's killing me...they're tied over...my lights have been fastened directly to the ceiling (rather than on a pulley system) in order to gain more space, and I've all but stopped GH grow nute at this point.

I doubt pics will help but I'll include 2: (1) when they were about 8 days old and one when they were 5 weeks.

BTW....although many wouldn't consider this a problem, I have too many for the space. Started with 18 beans and ended up with 13 fems. Never in my life have I had that kind of luck.

Got any opinion on the low ryder, or low ryder 2 strains?

gohydro said:

Hey Al...thanks for all the advise. I'm new to this board but have seen many of your posts. Glad you were the one to answer.

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No problem.

No need to worry about "mom" here...I'm a big boy. The only reason I started with beans rather than clones was another member of my co-op screwed up and killed the 30 killer bubblegum clones I gave him. Mannnn...I was pissed.

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Are you perhaps conflating my signature comment about 'hiding your grow from mom' with keeping mother plants? You do need to establish a constantly vegging mother plant (preferably several) to supply your grow with clones right when you need them.

I didn't mean to sound impatient as I've been doing this for quite a while. It just amazes me when I see some of the pics of these "dwarf like" babies (no, not always low ryder) and wonder how it was achieved. I specifically selected an indica strain in order to keep plant height low and these have gained at least 4 feet since 12/12. It's killing me...they're tied over...my lights have been fastened directly to the ceiling (rather than on a pulley system) in order to gain more space, and I've all but stopped GH grow nute at this point.

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Were your plants sexually mature before you tried to flower them?

Regardless, it's not unusual to see a freshly rooted clone which has been kept under veg cycle light gain 4-5x its starting height after being chucked under 12/12. This is how it works all the time 'round here. This is why I don't give my rooted clones any veg time beyond what they get sitting under fluoros in my clone rooting box. I depend on getting veg growth on the plants I'm flowering in the first 3-4 weeks of 12/12. The roughly 3-4 weeks it takes for plants to fully shift to flowering is when my plants will grow to their finishing height.

If you vegged your plants you are now flowering, eliminate that step next time.

I doubt pics will help but I'll include 2: (1) when they were about 8 days old and one when they were 5 weeks.

BTW....although many wouldn't consider this a problem, I have too many for the space. Started with 18 beans and ended up with 13 fems. Never in my life have I had that kind of luck.

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Looking good. Getting 13F/18 is marginally better than the average, which would be spot on 50%. Not like you've hit the lotto, but better than avg is always good.

Got any opinion on the low ryder, or low ryder 2 strains?

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None, other than special strains are not needed to obtain plants which don't get too tall in a SoG or ScrOG. Just don't veg the clones you intend to flower. You chose well with the indica. It will work OK once you get your known female mother plant/s in place and just chuck clones in to flower with zero veg time.

gohydro, I'm trying to get a sense of what has happened so far in your op. I think you have started from seed, raised the plants to about 12" tall then tried to flower them... am I right so far?

Hey Al...that is correct. I had a beautiful Bubblegum last grow and due to space limitations I gave all clones to a friend with the intent of getting a few back when I needed them. When it came time to get a few back he approached me with bad news......all dead...or so he says. So..... I had to start fresh with beans. Can't remember what I've written so far but here's a synopsis of the system if it helps to identify why the great stretch:

(2) 400w HPS & (1) 600 HPS covering 20sqft.

(3) homemade aeroponic tubs w/ 2 12" airstones each connected to 2 different pumps for redundancy/safety. 350gph pump in each tub with 6 nozzles.

GH 3part nutes w/ epsom salts added about 3 weeks in. Hygrozyme added each nute change.Usually running around 600ppm (any higher and I get nute burn). Change once a week.

Maintain 5.7-5.8ph

NO RO water..... 150ppm tap sits for 2 days before nute change.

NO added CO2 but in a well ventilated space.

Usually top the babies at 3rd node, wait for signs of growth (another 2 days) and then go to 12/12.....usually about 12" tall at that point.

2 questions for ya:

Up until today.... heavy duty ocillating fan. I began to wonder if this stiff breeze was causing the babies to stay (or prolong) the veg stage as a way to fatten up their stems and strengthen themselves. Sounds funny, but I thought it possible. Ever heard of this?

Due to the unexpected number of babies (better than 50%) I've had to remove the light from an unused clone cabinet and add it to the flower area. I now have a couple more $$$ and can afford another set-up. I was wondering how successful I'll be if I try to take clones now.....they've been flowering for 5-6 weeks. Whacha think?

Not to sound greedy but the bottom line here is that with their height, the number of fems, and my limited space I couldn't even think of a ScrOG and my yield leaves much to be desired. I can usually get about 2oz from 1 plant and from what I've read I should be able to get almost double that for the space (approx 20sqft).

al, could this stretching problem also possibly be due to hermaphrodite?

gohydro said:

Usually running around 600ppm (any higher and I get nute burn). Change once a week.

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wow, that's pretty low to be getting nute burn. I run at 1400 and don't see signs of tip burn until 1900-2000ppm. A tank should last you 2 weeks.

Usually top the babies at 3rd node, wait for signs of growth (another 2 days) and then go to 12/12.....usually about 12" tall at that point.

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Is this on clones taken from a known female mum or on a plant just raised from seed?

I don't see any notation of you having raised these to sexual maturity (6-8 wks vegging from beans) before you have tried to flower them. Could be a big part of it, but I would rather expect a 12" plant which is sexually mature to reach 4' tall by the finish of flowering.

Up until today.... heavy duty ocillating fan. I began to wonder if this stiff breeze was causing the babies to stay (or prolong) the veg stage as a way to fatten up their stems and strengthen themselves. Sounds funny, but I thought it possible. Ever heard of this?

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Nope. Unrelated.

I was wondering how successful I'll be if I try to take clones now.....they've been flowering for 5-6 weeks. Whacha think?

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Cuttings taken from plants which have been flowering are notoriously slow to set root. Worse, if you try to use a cutting taken from a flowering plant as a new mum, it'll take 3-4 weeks in veg lighting before it fully resumes full veg mode growth. Until it switches back to veg mode, growth will be slow and of mixed flowering-veg characters, including some wird leaf deformations and other stuff. You CAN get cuttings taken from flowering plants to set root, but only do it as a total last resort (ie to save a strain), don't make it part of your usual plan.

I've seen a thread on this board or some other about 'flowering clones'; deliberately taking cuttings from flowering plants, for some imagined benefit. I didn't bother to tell the guy how wrong he was since he thought he had discovered something new, grand & novel...

Not to sound greedy but the bottom line here is that with their height, the number of fems, and my limited space I couldn't even think of a ScrOG and my yield leaves much to be desired. I can usually get about 2oz from 1 plant and from what I've read I should be able to get almost double that for the space (approx 20sqft).

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If doing a ScrOG, you should be winding plants on the screen for about a week before you switch to 12/12. ScrOG, done well, truly is art... but I think it's far too much work and fuss for a high production op. Nice for hobby grow ops, tho. Lots of bragging rights in it... but far too much fiddling.

Per plant yield figures can be all over the shop depending on the growing style. I do a SoG, where cuttings are flowered as soon as they have a good set of roots and branching growth on the lower 1/3 of the plant is pruned off at the ends of wks 1 & 3. An exceptional yield for me is 1.2-1.5oz per plant. Average would be about 1z per. I have plants in 8" pots, about 23 plants per each 820mm^2 tray, 46 plants for each 1000W HPS. Going to 6" pots for 4 plants per SF soon.

gvega187 said:

al, could this stretching problem also possibly be due to hermaphrodite?

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Uh, no... Hermaphrodism is the appearance of male flowers on a primarily female plant. Hermaphrodism is a problem commonly resulting from stresses on a plant i.e. interrupted dark period in flowering, excessive nute strength, pH inconsistencies and a few other causes. Hermaphroditic plants' male flowers will produce enough pollen to fertilise some or all of the female colas, resulting in seedy buds. Hermaphrodism doesn't cause other problems like stretch.

uh, ok, just wondering bc i know male plants seem to grow a rediculous amount during veg. Thought it might be similar when hermaphrodite...and i know what it means btw and did'nt ask how it was caused.

gvega187 said:

uh, ok, just wondering bc i know male plants seem to grow a rediculous amount during veg. Thought it might be similar when hermaphrodite...and i know what it means btw and did'nt ask how it was caused.

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Male and female plants grow at similar rates, at least in veg.

Sometimes I volunteer information to fill in blanks where there appear to be some.

if your mother went hermi when u were in flower, & u already took clones when it was in veg will the clones turn out 2 be hermi? wondering if my ph going from around 6.3 down to 5.4 every 2 days is stressfull?

hmm thats interesting fuct. I have heard several people say that one not so reliable way to tell ur beans will turn to male is that they have a rediculous amount of veg growth. A healthy female could also do the same, but perhaps will not stretch as much as the potential male.

Hey Al....thanks again.

I had a post a while ago asking for opinions as to why I see others running at 1500-2000 ppm and anything above 700 for me would cause leaf burn. I suppose it could be my brand of nutes but I've been told over and over that aeroponic systems require about 50% less nute strength due to their efficiency. As a matter of fact one poster mentioned that she was using the same systems and found them to be most efficient at 650ppm which is exactly where mine do their best. I do realize that there are several factors contributing to their ability to absorb and process nutes efficiently, but I'm pretty meticulous about everything I do....probably anal to a point; Proper instruments (Hanna TDS/Ph/Temp meter), redundant everything (pumps, air pumps, air stones, etc), commercial grade timers, proper water temps, proper ph levels, proper air temps, MH lamps, HPS lamps, electronic ballasts, new bulbs.

My biggest question here has to do with specific nutes. I'm using the old standby of General Hydro 3 part with a few added things (epsom salts and hygrozyme) here and there. So many products on the market and I have no idea if one is any better than the other. Do you have any aero buddys that have found one particular brand works better than others? If I had to make an educated guess I'd say that the GH 3 part system was good but could probably use a 4th part made with some bloom boosting product.(I've recently added some BigBloom). The reason I change nutes every week is that my co-op partner has the identical set-up and changes every other week. I can't begin to tell you the difference between the two ops.

All the babies were from beans as I had no other choice this time around. It turned out well as I had to rob my 400w cloning light to suppliment the other lamps due massive growth in my flowering area.

I'm not sure how you're defining "sexual maturity". These babies grew to 12" after being topped once and then I induced flowering. It was exactly 14 days from the time they sprouted. I wasn't being impatient...they were just growing like wildfire (I posted a pic at 8 days) and I was afraid if I didn't induce they would get way too big for the space.

With respect to the cloning process I guess I'll need to start over again. That's a lot of time reverting back to veg and then back to flower and it almost seems faster to start from scratch.

Given your sqft results I guess my yields aren't too far off.

One last question.... I saw a papaya strain recently and the beans were quite expensive (relatively speaking). Got any experience or opinions?

infamouse21 said:

if your mother went hermi when u were in flower, & u already took clones when it was in veg will the clones turn out 2 be hermi?

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Soon as I figure out how your vegging mother was displaying flowers, (male or female), I'll answer that one.

wondering if my ph going from around 6.3 down to 5.4 every 2 days is stressfull?

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That's a fairly acceptable range. Wouldn't think that was the problem.

gohydro said:

Hey Al....thanks again.
I'm pretty meticulous about everything I do.

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Seems so! You're the only person I can think of who has (wisely!) bothered with air pump redundancy.

Keep an eye on that Hanna meter, tho. Hanna & I parted ways many years ago due to poor quality meters that lasted roughly a blink of a gnat's eyelash. Use nute concentration & pH test solutions frequently to calibrate and verify operation. When (not if) the Hanna wears out/quits, look at a Truncheon nute meter and Eutech waterproof pH meters.

My biggest question here has to do with specific nutes. I'm using the old standby of General Hydro 3 part with a few added things (epsom salts and hygrozyme) here and there.

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Sounds reasonable. I've never used GH but lots of ppl do, with good success.

So many products on the market and I have no idea if one is any better than the other.

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hah, you and everyone else. There's a magic snake-oil sauce vendor for every cannabis grower.

Do you have any aero buddys that have found one particular brand works better than others? If I had to make an educated guess I'd say that the GH 3 part system was good but could probably use a 4th part made with some bloom boosting product.(I've recently added some BigBloom).

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Can't really offer you any advice on that path.

The reason I change nutes every week is that my co-op partner has the identical set-up and changes every other week. I can't begin to tell you the difference between the two ops.

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Does GH recommend weekly tank dumps?

Are you sure that your ops are totally identical? This is HIGHLY unlikely.

You can tell if biweekly dumps will work for you by running a tank for 2 weeks and keeping daily note of the ppm when you check it. You should see ppm drop steadily over the life of a tank. Dump them when your measured ppm is about 60% of your start figure.

I'm not sure how you're defining "sexual maturity". These babies grew to 12" after being topped once and then I induced flowering. It was exactly 14 days from the time they sprouted. I wasn't being impatient...they were just growing like wildfire (I posted a pic at 8 days) and I was afraid if I didn't induce they would get way too big for the space.

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aha... you didn't raise your plants to sexual maturity before you flowered. Problem #1.

Sexual maturity (which I've defined twice in recent posts; kindly read what I've written so I don't have to say it several times!) is defined as when preflowers begin to appear at the nodes. This requires about 6-8 wks of vegging after sprouting from beans.

I appreciate that your new, immature plants were vigorously growing vegetatively, but plants have to be grown out to sexual maturity before you can flower them or make good mums out of them. You may have to prune back a plant which you are vegging up to sexual maturity from seed a few times before you can even sex it, much less flower it.

With respect to the cloning process I guess I'll need to start over again. That's a lot of time reverting back to veg and then back to flower and it almost seems faster to start from scratch.

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Yep, you need mums which are sexually mature, known female and are kept in constant veg. It will take 3-5 wks for a plant which has been under a flowering light cycle for more than a week or so to swap back to full veg mode growth.

It would be faster by a few weeks for you to reveg a flowered plant than to start over from beans, but you can do it either way. Either way- you need to bite the bullet and do it.

One last question.... I saw a papaya strain recently and the beans were quite expensive (relatively speaking). Got any experience or opinions?

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None, really. I've grown White Widow, AK47, Sweet Tooth #4, LUI, Power Plant, Skunk #1, White Skunk (WW x Sk#1) and a few others I can't recall because I was stoned at the time. The main thing you want to know about a strain you're going to SoG is whether it is a primarily indica dominant strain or not. Indica dominant strains produce best in SoG though any strain will grow in a SoG.

Ahhhh...I think you've hit on it. I DID read your posts but never realized that a plant GROWN from beans (as opposed to a clone) had a "sexual" maturity time. 6-8 weeks huh? Guess next time I'll need to do some serious training or pruning. 6-8 weeks of veg with no training or pruning ought to put them through my roof.