"Plants Need Sleep"

bryleetch

bryleetch

Well-Known Member
Anytime the question of 24/0 or 18/6 pops up someone usually answers with the typical "plants need sleep, it's just natural that way of things" but I get the feeling that people don't completely understand the reasoning and science of why they use the photoperiod they use, other than because they've experienced first hand one way being better than the other. I'm not here to pick a side, I just want to enlighten some people so that they can relay actual information, not unproven biased babble. I'll try to keep this as short as possible rather than typing up a textbook.

There's really only two things people need to get out of this.
1. C3 plants (cannabis) do not need a dark period in order to perform the "dark reaction" of the Calvin Cycle or more correctly termed... "light independent reaction". Simply, this is why your plants can live under 24/0. I get the feeling that some people don't understand this and use the "dark reaction" as a reason why darkness is needed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light-independent_reactions
2. Plants have circadian rhythms which allow them to know the time of day and function accordingly to the time of day. The study linked below finds that "plants with a clock
period matched to the environment contain more chlorophyll, fix more carbon,
grow faster, and survive better than plants with circadian periods differing
from their environment" but please read the article to find out why specifically.This is where the whole "its more natural" argument becomes backed up with actual facts other than the hippy mentality that everything should be natural and how it was intended, no offense intended to any hippies :peace:
http://kt.ijs.si/marko_debeljak/Lectures/Ekologija/Seminar/Readings_2005-06/zagovori_2005-06/kacafura/Osnovni clanek.pdf

I'm sure many of you already knew this but I'm also pretty sure this will be news to some. Hope this helps everyone better understand how this wonderful plant grows and why we grow it the way we do. Maybe this will even spur some experiments modeled after the one linked for a more relative study to us cannabis growers.

Happy Growing!
 
kogislife420

kogislife420

Active Member
Yeah Veg Under High Powered Lights annnddddd 10 pound plants if your a good gardener it truly doesnt take much. Grow it natural will never be as good as vegging under lights and growing organically all you need to know are the auxin travelling and to get massive plants and to what take 1 hour of plant care a day
 
TheYokel

TheYokel

Well-Known Member
bryleetch said:
Anytime the question of 24/0 or 18/6 pops up someone usually answers with the typical "plants need sleep, it's just natural that way of things" but I get the feeling that people don't completely understand the reasoning and science of why they use the photoperiod they use, other than because they've experienced first hand one way being better than the other. I'm not here to pick a side, I just want to enlighten some people so that they can relay actual information, not unproven biased babble. I'll try to keep this as short as possible rather than typing up a textbook.

There's really only two things people need to get out of this.
1. C3 plants (cannabis) do not need a dark period in order to perform the "dark reaction" of the Calvin Cycle or more correctly termed... "light independent reaction". Simply, this is why your plants can live under 24/0. I get the feeling that some people don't understand this and use the "dark reaction" as a reason why darkness is needed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light-independent_reactions
2. Plants have circadian rhythms which allow them to know the time of day and function accordingly to the time of day. The study linked below finds that "plants with a clock
period matched to the environment contain more chlorophyll, fix more carbon,
grow faster, and survive better than plants with circadian periods differing
from their environment" but please read the article to find out why specifically.This is where the whole "its more natural" argument becomes backed up with actual facts other than the hippy mentality that everything should be natural and how it was intended, no offense intended to any hippies :peace:
http://kt.ijs.si/marko_debeljak/Lectures/Ekologija/Seminar/Readings_2005-06/zagovori_2005-06/kacafura/Osnovni clanek.pdf

I'm sure many of you already knew this but I'm also pretty sure this will be news to some. Hope this helps everyone better understand how this wonderful plant grows and why we grow it the way we do. Maybe this will even spur some experiments modeled after the one linked for a more relative study to us cannabis growers.

Happy Growing!
Click to expand...
I'll bite. Let's combat some bad science tonight...

Do veg-stage weed plants need a dark period to grow? No. Not at all. Root temperature matters more than light cycle.

Will veg-stage weed plants grow roots quicker in the dark? Yes. Yes they will. By about 5%, independent of all other factors (including soil). But it will mainly be axial growth.

http://aob.oxfordjournals.org/content/81/5/603.full.pdf

Root Elongation Rates are actually something that have seen a good bit of study in the past.

From the very first paragraph:

"RER's did not differ statistically between the day and the night cycles when temperatures were the same."

But:

Things like nitrate uptake, root respiration, and root exudation... they do go by cycles. And endogenous rhythmicity does play a part in the plants growth.

And some plants don't create a diurnal cycle until they are exposed to it, so you have to take that into account also. In other words, your plant has to know what 18/6 feels like before it knows the difference.

Take into account I am only talking about young plants with newly developing roots... I don't think I've ever seen a study done on plants with an already established root system.
 
bryleetch

bryleetch

Well-Known Member
TheYokel said:
I'll bite. Let's combat some bad science tonight...

Do veg-stage weed plants need a dark period to grow? No. Not at all. Root temperature matters more than light cycle.

Will veg-stage weed plants grow roots quicker in the dark? Yes. Yes they will. By about 5%, independent of all other factors (including soil). But it will mainly be axial growth.

http://aob.oxfordjournals.org/content/81/5/603.full.pdf

Root Elongation Rates are actually something that have seen a good bit of study in the past.

From the very first paragraph:

"RER's did not differ statistically between the day and the night cycles when temperatures were the same."

But:

Things like nitrate uptake, root respiration, and root exudation... they do go by cycles. And endogenous rhythmicity does play a part in the plants growth.

And some plants don't create a diurnal cycle until they are exposed to it, so you have to take that into account also. In other words, your plant has to know what 18/6 feels like before it knows the difference.

Take into account I am only talking about young plants with newly developing roots... I don't think I've ever seen a study done on plants with an already established root system.
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Don't understand the "bad science" jab considering that all your information pretty much goes in line with what I was trying to get across. Not like I gave false information, it definitely could have been more in depth but all I wanted was to get across some simple information so that people can stop being ignorant with why we grow the way we do. Regardless, thanks for contributing with this even more helpful information.
Dr. Who said:
This AGAIN? :shock::sleep::spew:
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Yup because clearly the hundreds of other times this information has been posted people still manage to not understand at least some basic plant physiology. Sorry for disgusting you with such boring information... clearly this thread wasn't meant for you then if you already knew what I was trying to get across.
 
TheYokel

TheYokel

Well-Known Member
bryleetch said:
Don't understand the "bad science" jab considering that all your information pretty much goes in line with what I was trying to get across. Not like I gave false information, it definitely could have been more in depth but all I wanted was to get across some simple information so that people can stop being ignorant with why we grow the way we do. Regardless, thanks for contributing with this even more helpful information.

Yup because clearly the hundreds of other times this information has been posted people still manage to not understand at least some basic plant physiology. Sorry for disgusting you with such boring information... clearly this thread wasn't meant for you then if you already knew what I was trying to get across.
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It wasn't aimed at you. You basically summed-up my feelings in your response to Dr. Who.
 
bryleetch

bryleetch

Well-Known Member
TheYokel said:
It wasn't aimed at you. You basically summed-up my feelings in your response to Dr. Who.
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I'm re-reading that line about combating bad science and I completely took it the wrong way. Sorry, so used to people disagreeing on here that I couldn't even tell when someone was actually being nice.
Cannasutraorganics said:
All corect. During active veg 20/4 is most growth without the bad effects.
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Is there any other elaboration of why that may be the case, other than what's been already mentioned? The more information the merrier, gotten some real good stuff already from yokel.
 
TheYokel

TheYokel

Well-Known Member
bryleetch said:
I'm re-reading that line about combating bad science and I completely took it the wrong way. Sorry, so used to people disagreeing on here that I couldn't even tell when someone was actually being nice.

Is there any other elaboration of why that may be the case, other than what's been already mentioned? The more information the merrier, gotten some real good stuff already from yokel.
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A few ideas on why I, at least, think 20/4 or 18/6 is better.

- Dark periods promote axial growth in the roots.
- Certain root functions happen much more efficiently in the dark.
- Weed plants need to learn what dark is. Weed plants have to "learn" a diurnal cycle. If you don't show them what dark is when they are young, when you flip them, their internal cycles will be delayed.
 
GroErr

GroErr

Well-Known Member
Don't know about the science and really don't care, results and close monitoring is what I go by. From monitoring different light cycles in my own grows, 20/4 for the first 4 weeks or so and then 18/6 seems to be the most productive from a growth and health stand-point in veg. I found 24/0 for the first 4 weeks produced more defs, when I settled on 20/4 from seed/clone I found the plants much easier to manage and healthier and still got good growth. Found the same thing once they get past the first 4-5 weeks from seed or clone so at that point I flip them to 18/6. Who knows but I did this with a few strains and they were all consistent. Just my 2 cents.
 
bryleetch

bryleetch

Well-Known Member
GroErr said:
Don't know about the science and really don't care, results and close monitoring is what I go by. From monitoring different light cycles in my own grows, 20/4 for the first 4 weeks or so and then 18/6 seems to be the most productive from a growth and health stand-point in veg. I found 24/0 for the first 4 weeks produced more defs, when I settled on 20/4 from seed/clone I found the plants much easier to manage and healthier and still got good growth. Found the same thing once they get past the first 4-5 weeks from seed or clone so at that point I flip them to 18/6. Who knows but I did this with a few strains and they were all consistent. Just my 2 cents.
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Gathering results, interpreting them, and then concluding that one way is better than another is majority of the steps of scientific method so you're being and thinking scientifically without even realizing it. At least now from reading the things in this thread you can know a little background information on why you're getting those results but don't worry you can continue to not care about it. Thanks for the input, it helps further point to the theory that a dark period allows a plant to function more smoothly
 
GroErr

GroErr

Well-Known Member
bryleetch said:
Gathering results, interpreting them, and then concluding that one way is better than another is majority of the steps of scientific method so you're being and thinking scientifically without even realizing it. At least now from reading the things in this thread you can know a little background information on why you're getting those results but don't worry you can continue to not care about it. Thanks for the input, it helps further point to the theory that a dark period allows a plant to function more smoothly
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Good point, I guess that's more what I meant, there are a lot of ways to find out what works with MJ and your particular environment, even if there's contradicting science. Lighting type, water/feed, airflow, and many variables can affect the results. So if I have a gut feeling I test it in my environment, even if I've read or seen otherwise. There's scarce test data for MJ specifically, I read a paper a while back saying that in their particular test, 24/0 vegging was more productive. While I could have taken that as being true for MJ, it was lettuce and under a specific type of lighting (MH). Lettuce is not MJ and I don't use MH so I ran controlled tests to see the difference. I do agree that they need some rest but again until I tested it I couldn't be sure in my environment. The biggest difference I noted was defs normally associated with cal-mag issues. When I switched to the 4 hour rest period for clones/seeds it made a significant difference, with clones from the same strains (key for control). Even if I got faster growth at 24/0, I'd rather have healthy, less stressed plants than faster growth. Besides the work of dealing with defs, I believe a vigorous/healthy plant will eventually equal bigger/better yields. Knocking a week off in veg means nothing in flowering, the end game is dense and plentiful flowers (I think? - lol)
 
TheYokel

TheYokel

Well-Known Member
GroErr said:
There's scarce test data for MJ specifically, I read a paper a while back saying that in their particular test, 24/0 vegging was more productive. While I could have taken that as being true for MJ, it was lettuce and under a specific type of lighting (MH).
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That's why most papers I quote are for flowering herbs, just like cannabis. Most studies I try to find in particular are on catnip. Surprising how alike the two are in some aspects.
 
tip top toker

tip top toker

Well-Known Member
Question. I can happily grow a lovely plant under 18/6, i can happily grow a lovely plant under 24/0. Why do you give a shit? Neither method is gonna be detrimental in any way, so why do you care what others do :) People can hav any reason they like, hell, it's because of unicorns, so long as they grow plants they're happy with, who cares.

Stop worrying about what other people think and do.
 
Dr. Who

Dr. Who

Well-Known Member
tip top toker said:
Question. I can happily grow a lovely plant under 18/6, i can happily grow a lovely plant under 24/0. Why do you give a shit? Neither method is gonna be detrimental in any way, so why do you care what others do :) People can hav any reason they like, hell, it's because of unicorns, so long as they grow plants they're happy with, who cares.

Stop worrying about what other people think and do.
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Exactly......
This horse has been beat to death long ago. If new members want to know about this topic,,,they can search it.
Yes, OP, you are right. Cannabis does not NEED a lights out time to grow.
And Yokel is correct that root systems do better WITH a lights out period.

Now I'm tired of poking at this rotting hulk of a horse,,,,,and so should you all.

stinks around here
 
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tip top toker

tip top toker

Well-Known Member
Dr. Who said:
Exactly......
This horse has been beat to death long ago. If new members want to know about this topic,,,they can search it.
Yes, OP, you are right. Cannabis does not NEED a lights out time to grow.
And Yokel is correct that root systems do better WITH a lights out period.

Now I'm tired of poking at this rotting hulk of a horse,,,,,and so should you all.

stinks around here
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regardless of whether growers can find it, or if it's right or wrong, it is pointless, it doesn't mean a thing. Plants happily grow under 18/6. Who cares?

It's just making me think of all these warriors getting shouty over a requirement to have an EC/PPM meter if you grow in hydro. Cannabis can be grown any which way, and can be done so contradicting all accepted "science".

In short. Who gives a shit? A plant is a plant, noone gives a crap if their science is wrong if they're achieving results they are happy with.
 
bryleetch

bryleetch

Well-Known Member
tip top toker said:
Question. I can happily grow a lovely plant under 18/6, i can happily grow a lovely plant under 24/0. Why do you give a shit? Neither method is gonna be detrimental in any way, so why do you care what others do :) People can hav any reason they like, hell, it's because of unicorns, so long as they grow plants they're happy with, who cares.

Stop worrying about what other people think and do.
Click to expand...
I don't worry about what people think, I worry when they don't think. People time and time again post on here misinformation, particularly about photosynthesis and how plants need a dark period to perform it. If you think not understanding the basics of photosynthesis as a grower isn't a big deal then that's your own problem. I damn sure don't care what they do (thought I made that clear by not picking a side) but when they continually post bullshit on the same topic something needs to be said.

The whole "who give's a shit" attitude is what is wrong with the world. More people should give a crap if their science is wrong and they post on hear spreading their shitty science. If no one "gives a shit" enough to point out this misinformation it will eventually become true and then we post on a forum that thinks unicorns grow plants. C'mon now, instead of worrying about me giving a shit about something small maybe you should look yourself in the mirror to see what you can start giving a shit about instead of just accepting the world for what it is. Life is bigger than this forum, think big.
 
Cannasutraorganics

Cannasutraorganics

Well-Known Member
Yokel is less yokel then his name.... Kind of a smart guy... Recent studies done in America and Europe to back up older studies show that when older they need dark to establish parameters to grow. Shortens nodes and allows roots to keep up or surpass plant growth. You want the plant to be chasing the roots. Also weed grows at night and uses oxygen during dark to grow plant and roots. Some of this information goes back hundreds of years in books written about cultivation and care of weed plants. But through science we now know why it works. Also by inning 20/4 during veg, when you switch to bud go 14/10 and they will go into bud just fine. Some run 14 or 15 hour light on during bud for more yield.
 
Dr. Who

Dr. Who

Well-Known Member
Cannasutraorganics said:
Yokel is less yokel then his name.... Kind of a smart guy... Recent studies done in America and Europe to back up older studies show that when older they need dark to establish parameters to grow. Shortens nodes and allows roots to keep up or surpass plant growth. You want the plant to be chasing the roots. Also weed grows at night and uses oxygen during dark to grow plant and roots. Some of this information goes back hundreds of years in books written about cultivation and care of weed plants. But through science we now know why it works. Also by inning 20/4 during veg, when you switch to bud go 14/10 and they will go into bud just fine. Some run 14 or 15 hour light on during bud for more yield.
Click to expand...
WELL PUT!

:clap:
 
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