Plz Help! Deficiencies? Lockouts? At a loss

amich said:

O.k, so the drip clean NPK is N/A in terms of food.

Yeah true Dutchie. New seeds aren't far at all! I want to solve this problem/turn this around...but i'm more concerned about future grows now. I feel like it wouldn't be smart to start new seeds or anything until i've sorted this problem. If i can't sort it, then I'll either have to change nutes, or change medium and nutes. That would suck...these nutes were expensive!!

O.k thanks Dynamo, interesting info on how the plant is pulling the deficient nutes from the leaves which then shows the deficiency.

Sorry im4satori, i didn't give you the full picture. Those are only the nutes i've used so far. The A and B are run together through the whole grow and i have additional bloom nutes from H&G called bud XL, top booster and top shooter. Is that what you mean?

Argh i can't post links, how annoying! If you can be bothered, theres a description of drip clean on house and garden nutrients aus website
It seems to be popular with ppl using coco H&G to minimise salt buildup.

WIth the 11% calcium, I read this from someones post. I've also read 10%. I assume this is referring to the total of both A and B. I don't know if this is accurate, I can't find any analysis of H&G. I think this is high because it is coco nutes, so the calcium is upped to account for the calcium binding properties of coco(?). The thing is...i'm using buffered coco (Canna coco professional plus). I just found this: Google "Buffering up: Adjusting the cation exchange capacity in coco growing media" maybe you'll find it interesting

yeah i get that you can't properly advise without that info, all good

Can you guys pls advise on epsom and calmag dose? With epsom, should i foilar feed some too? And if dosing either worked i assume it would be ongoing at the same rate?

Also how long dose it take to see an improvement usually?

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I recommend starting some organic s*** why not?

without the calcium and magnesium % amounts its impossible to know for sure how much calmag to balance your fertilizer mix

if the product had that much calcium you wouldn't need calmag

although looking at the pics I cant rule out calcium def completely

I would top dress or water in 1/4 tsp Epsom salt per gallon for the next few waterings and spray them 1x with 1/4 tsp Epsom salt per gallon

then after positive response... water 1/4 tsp epsom per gallon every other watering

if you think the info you have saying the calcium is that high is reliable then hold off on calmag...see what happens from just the Epsom salt alone... Epsom salt responds quick and should give you some answers in 3 days time

if after the Epsom salt theyre still having issues add some additional calmag every other watering 5mls per gallon


heres the problem
calcium and magnesium compete for uptake

if you adjust one it affects the other and it requires a balance between the two

so if your base mix is heavy in calcium and you add calmag making it heavier in calcium itll make what could be magnesium def worse and more difficult to correct

for this reason I wouldn't add more calcium just yet.... plus id bet $5 its magnesium def and or if the calcium is as high as you said it could be magnesium lockout form high calcium

Well if the way i'm doing it now keeps being a PITA I may go soil and organic. Its meant to be enjoyable not stressful!

O.k thanks a lot im4satori, i'll try with epsom first give it a number of days and can move on to calmag if theres no response.

amich said:

Well if the way i'm doing it now keeps being a PITA I may go soil and organic. Its meant to be enjoyable not stressful!

O.k thanks a lot im4satori, i'll try with epsom first give it a number of days and can move on to calmag if theres no response.

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I get nothing but enjoyment in my plants, amazement everytime

O.k an update.

I believe the epsom has helped. What must have been the magnesium component of the problem looks better and most of the plants look a little happier overall. I think in the SLHs issues were mostly magnesium, and i now think in the WWs it is a combo of mag and cal to varying degrees. I'll quickly mention what i thinks happened and my short sprint down error lane.

I think I over estimated the contribution of ca and mg from my tap water. I'd read a lot of comments a la "I'm using tap water, don't need cal mag". So I though tap water + coc nutes + buffered coco = shouldn't have a problem. I did dose a tiny bit of cal mag for a while then stopped, but i'll get to that in a sec. Looking at my tap water analysis again...Ca 11.4-17.3 mg/L, Mg 4.3-5.2mg/L...the ca is 0.0011-0.0017% and mg 0.0004-0.0005%. Thats 11-17ppm and 4-5ppm. Shouldn't even factor in.

When a few rusty spots appeared I had just made 3 changes. Upped the nutes inline with increased growth, and increased amount of both drip clean and multizyme to follow H&G schedule more closely. I assumed the problem was the increased nutes, but i now think it was demand for cal mag as the plant grew surpassing what i was providing. I was giving an insurance dose of 1/10 dose...but I had held that dose steady since the start of nutes and as I had been adjusting my nutes up.

As I thought it was nute burn at first, I dropped the nutes which i assume made the problem worse and overall stunted growth further.

Ofcourse I'm not sure this is all correct, but its what makes the most sense right now.

I'm not sure that H&G is 10 or 11% ca, they were the only 2 mentions of ca% i could find. But thinking about that, if calimagic is 5% ca and dose is 1ml/L, then if H&G was 10% and dose is 2+ml/L.... thats 4x calimagic ever feed....yeah maybe not correct, right?

Anyway, can you guys pls look at these pictures. The WW1 has very small and thin, light colored new grow...and overall the leaves have remained small. Do you think this is the cal def component? Not something else i hope... On some of the newer/intermediate leaves you can see a pattern of yellow spotting... cal def? Thanks!

amich said:

O.k an update.

I believe the epsom has helped. What must have been the magnesium component of the problem looks better and most of the plants look a little happier overall. I think in the SLHs issues were mostly magnesium, and i now think in the WWs it is a combo of mag and cal to varying degrees. I'll quickly mention what i thinks happened and my short sprint down error lane.

I think I over estimated the contribution of ca and mg from my tap water. I'd read a lot of comments a la "I'm using tap water, don't need cal mag". So I though tap water + coc nutes + buffered coco = shouldn't have a problem. I did dose a tiny bit of cal mag for a while then stopped, but i'll get to that in a sec. Looking at my tap water analysis again...Ca 11.4-17.3 mg/L, Mg 4.3-5.2mg/L...the ca is 0.0011-0.0017% and mg 0.0004-0.0005%. Thats 11-17ppm and 4-5ppm. Shouldn't even factor in.

When a few rusty spots appeared I had just made 3 changes. Upped the nutes inline with increased growth, and increased amount of both drip clean and multizyme to follow H&G schedule more closely. I assumed the problem was the increased nutes, but i now think it was demand for cal mag as the plant grew surpassing what i was providing. I was giving an insurance dose of 1/10 dose...but I had held that dose steady since the start of nutes and as I had been adjusting my nutes up.

As I thought it was nute burn at first, I dropped the nutes which i assume made the problem worse and overall stunted growth further.

Ofcourse I'm not sure this is all correct, but its what makes the most sense right now.

I'm not sure that H&G is 10 or 11% ca, they were the only 2 mentions of ca% i could find. But thinking about that, if calimagic is 5% ca and dose is 1ml/L, then if H&G was 10% and dose is 2+ml/L.... thats 4x calimagic ever feed....yeah maybe not correct, right?

Anyway, can you guys pls look at these pictures. The WW1 has very small and thin, light colored new grow...and overall the leaves have remained small. Do you think this is the cal def component? Not something else i hope... On some of the newer/intermediate leaves you can see a pattern of yellow spotting... cal def? Thanks!

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Wow dude those things look like crap sorry. Maybe maybe it's a root rot situation how much water are you giving these guys each day? Also it could be having a very Advanced magnesium deficiency have you tried the Epsom salt spray? I've heard about 1/4 cup per gallon and a spray but this looks really Advanced dude I'm sorry but you might want to try again

Hey I'm pretty sure that drip clean stuff is a cleaning solvent for your tubing I really don't think it's supposed to go in your plants it's to help loosen up calcium residue that builds in the tubing it could be a simple as that which is killing your plants

id water them with only

2mls of calmag and 1/4 tsp Epsom salt and nothing more for a bit

and Id look into getting a brand of nutes that tells you whtas in it on the label

anything general hydropoins is good imo

Haha yeah i know, thanks Dutchie. I'm not too worried, not desperate if u feel me. A few nights a go I was just about to start again...then i figured nah i'll do my best with this run first and level myself up with experience. Yeah drip clean is part of the H&G coco sched. It's meant to bind excess salt and carry it out with your run off. I've done a shit ton of research over the past few weeks... it's very popular with ppl who use H&G nutes as an every feed additive. I think its o.k.

The roots are actually well developed believe it or not. They're in 5 gallon fabric pots...the roots are prickling out the sides.

O.k, so these are Autos. I've been feeding low the whole time (compared to H&G sched) as I believe you should with Autos. I can't back off everything too much because no matter what they'll march on along their timeline. I can't stunt them further at this stage.

I have sprayed them all once with 1/4 tsp epsom /gal. I gave them all 3 nights of 1/4 tsp/gal epsom ontop of regular feed. Last night i reduced epsom - instead of 1/4tsp every second feed after the inital 3 nights as im4satori suggested, 1/8 tsp every feed, and added 0.5ml/L calmag. Tonight i've boosted calmag to 1ml/L. As these are autos i haven't wanted to hit them too hard. Once i've decied they're past most of the actual deficiencies, do i reduce the dose of both epsom and calmag? Related, what do i do about epsom and calmag during flowering?

I'll look into GH, thx

Below is a pic of a better one just after lst...and the roots.. the mag def is clear. Wish it was clear to me 2 week ago!!

after looking at the new pics there a good amount of new growth compared to the older pics

id spray them again with 1/4 tsp Epsom and then again in 3 days

feed every other watering with 1/4 tsp Epsom, 3mls calmag and 4mls of each of your base nutes

if they respond well in a weeks time
start them on 7mls of each of the base nutes along with 3mls calmag and 1/4 tsp Epsom salt every 2nd or 3rd watering depending on how hungry they look

O.k Cool, thanks for your help im4satori, really appreciate it!

amich said:

O.k Cool, thanks for your help im4satori, really appreciate it!

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How's it going man ? I'm running same line of nutes as you.

Hey bro, it's going well now!

I actually scrapped the grow in this thread, cut my losses, started again. Dutch Passion Auto Night Queen and Think Different.

I tried again with H&G base and additives, also bought some General Hydroponics Micro and Bloom as back up (thanks im4satori). Decided if the deficiencies showed up again with H&G base, will switch to GH - modified Lucas (Head 6/9).

The defs showed up again, same time, same pattern. So I switched to GH 6/9, running it with H&G additives (following H&G USA scheduele) - Drip clean, Roots Excelurator, Amino Treatment, Multizyme, Bud XL. It's worked out well...

I think I know what the problem was now. I was running the H&G base too low, like 25-50%. That's too low anyway, the whole Autoflowers need low nutes thought line is old, but particularly with H&G base which has an unconventional profile. Its on the low side for Mg and P to start. I found three analysis after much searching, I've put the link to one in a pic. Can't be sure its accurate though...

I'm on day 62 from seed. During veg I ran 6/9 starting at 50%, moved up to 75% in over a week, 80% most of veg, 100% just before and throughout stretch. Just started week 5 flower, just introduced Top Booster. I ran 6/12 (Micro/Bloom, ml/g) for week 4, now 4/9 + TB. After TB will start Top Shooter. Will probs drop the micro more during Tops shooter.

Have mostly been running EC between 1.5-1.7.

I guess it was user error running H&G too low. But for now I think it's valuable for me to know both ends of the story - reliable numbers going in and how the plant looks. Can adjust former depending on latter. H&G base doesn't provide the numbers going in.

Anyway the additives are great! DC, RE both awesome. MZ and BXL, both great, can notice the effects. I'm sure the base is good too, but right now i'm rolling with whats working.

Happy nothing is going wrong now (finger crossed) and the things I've done (so far) have been right!! Seems i'm dialing in a H&G + GH combo!

Hope H&G line is working out well for you!

Pics:
Front 2 and back right = Think Different. Back left is ANQ. Back 2 would be about 1.4m if i hadn't bent them all down. Front right TD is about 95-100cm. Tent is too small.

Looks good man

id go back and get the third part of the 3 part from GH..the "grow"

I understand you can run something close to lucas with just the bloom and mirco at 2:1 mix ratio
but youd be better off with more N and mixing like this

full strength per gallon
veg
grow 7.5mls
micro 5 mls
bloom 2.5 mls
calmag 3mls calmag
Epsom 1/8 tsp (0.5 grams)

bloom
grow 6mls
micro 3mls
bloom 6mls
calmag 5mls

Steady, have you used top shooter/shooting powder? If so, whatcha think?

Im4satori, those look like good profiles... I ran it all through cannastats. I'll keep it in mind for next run. Is there a source/origin/discussions I can look at re. that combo?

Supposedly 6:9 works for coco because it takes into account cocos property of releasing stored K, so it provides less K.

Can I throw u some Q's?:
Is it normal for my plants to be dropping a few lower fan leaves at this point? They are still green, though they are shaded.

Mid week 5 of what i think is an 8/9 wk strain, how much N should be provided? I think the plants are telling me to ease up on the N. They're getting 65ppm of N at this point. I was giving 6:12 (~100ppm of N) until wk 5. Now 4:9 with top booster (PK13/14). The leaves, particularly bud leaves are dark and becoming shiny.

Apart from leaf appearance, can too much N at this point interfere with bud formation?

Thanks heaps

amich said:

Steady, have you used top shooter/shooting powder? If so, whatcha think?

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No I only do the base with multi zen in veg and bud xl , top booster in flower. I had small issues still but I'm upping the dosage