Poor Man's - PH Up & PH Down - Cal Mag - MicroNutes - Potassium

Seeing how you're growing in soil why not just use city/town water. I've noticed that town/city water is PH'd at around 6.5ph.

Truly the cheapest PH down suitable for a soil grow is sulfuric acid.

I can use dolomite lime for a PH down for the rock tables and plant ash for PH up(not suitable for soil), or the sulfuric acid etc.

My city's PH is like 7.2

saiyaneye said:

My city's PH is like 7.2

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That's about where my swamp water comes in at.

Your 6 plants in a two foot square by six inch deep rock table($100max, not including light(s) ) and a bag of dolomite lime from a lumber yard would PH down for a life time

A square bucket of miracle grow bloom for another $5-10 will last until the expiry date cut at 1/6 as directed for soil per gallon of res(10 gal).

This is the cheapest and easiest way to grow

saiyaneye said:

Battery acid is about as far away from natural as it gets, right?

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oh sorry, how about boat battery acid?

saiyaneye said:

Can someone clear up, what the hell percentages mean on nutrients. I mean, why aren't they measured in MG or Grams? It doesn't make sense. How the hell can you really determine how much nutrients you are putting in your plants?​

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In the US it's a percentage of weight (%w/w). I've heard some countries use volume (%w/v or %v/v). I don't know how to translate that. But, %w/w is easy. If a pound of fertilizer is 10-10-10, it contains %10 N and therefore, 1.6oz. (K and P are confusing because they're expressed as K2O and P2O5, which are 2.291 and 1.205 times heavier than the elemental K and P they release).

This spreadsheet makes it easier to work with things like that.

You might check the organic growing form for input into what they use. In another thread you mentioned you wanted to use less-expensive and organic ingredients. I replied with some suggestions, to which you said organic didn't matter. But, it seems you're emphasizing organic again.

I like organic and encourage you to find some things that work for you. I like a blend of synthetic and organic. It seems like the best of both worlds. (I.e., synthetic seems to produce harsh smoke. Full organic takes some effort composing soil. The organic-like boutique "lineups" (General Organics, Roots Organics, et. al.) are reported to sacrifice yield for ease of use.). I noticed a significant taste difference when I began using what I use which sources a signicant amount of nutrient from organics, but still uses synthetics for more immediate availability.

saiyaneye said:

My city's PH is like 7.2

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My pH is high too. I stopped pH'ing my nutrient mix (for soil). If your soil has dolomite (I add 1-1.5tbsp/gal) and you're not overfeeding nor adding unnecessary things like "calmag," you shouldn't have to pH your mix.

For me it was like a spiral. Overfeeding makes the water's pH stronger and capable of affecting the soil's pH. It requires more pH-Up, which adds even more salts to the water. The force-feeding leads to calmag deficiencies, leading to the cult of calmag (which adds more salts). Now you're adding more pH-Up (more salts).

Clearly the problem was overfeeding, but when I backed that down I found I didn't need "calmag," which resulted in my nutrient mix being less acidic. Which made it more feasible to not pH. (Perhaps I could have used calmag and not pH'ed too. But, I found the calmag was unnecessary. And, by eliminating it it made not pHing more obviously something to try. And, I wasn't getting N that I didn't need, etc.).

saiyaneye said:

Edited....There are links to a more detailed page with more info on the nutrients in the spices

====================
Well I just wonder how many MG is too much with all of these, or if our plants even use some of these. Wtf is Selenium,
Boron
Calcium
Chloride
Chromium
Copper
Fluoride
Iodine
Iron
Magnesium
Manganese
Molybdenum
Phosphorus
Potassium
Selenium
Sodium
======================

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Good morning, welcome to CHEMISTRY! You think those guys in lab coats are just there for fun? NOOOOO! They're there to help us solve problems to make money!

First, bone up on what each any every one of these minerals does. Quit whining and do it anyway, you need to know that sodium is not a plant nutrient.

Second, research dry nutrient salts. Hydro-gardens.com is a great place to start, they sold me my dry nutrient salts a few years back. I'm still using the same order, which should also tell you something.

Third, and this is for the advanced class, look up chelation, flocculation and antagonism. These will tell you WHY you mix dry nutes in separate buckets before adding to your res.

PH is fun! I'm not sure where to find a cheap substitute for bases, but battery acid is a cheap alternative for the stupid expensive shit at the hydro store. It's sulfuric acid, so it will add a tiny amount of water soluble sulfur, not a bad thing. Do NOT work with it without proper safety equipment, including for your eyes!

Class dismissed! Do your homework, it's only worth the combined value of every crop you'll ever pull again.

You might want to test the stability of your ph down/up. I have been looking at this myself since my water ph is > 10 this time of year. Found many substances that will drop the ph, but only 1 that has remained stable. Not exactly a clean solution for hydro either. For that I'll stick to phosphoric acid. It's extremely stable, once ph is set, it stays.

Citrus (including citric acid) I have found is just too unstable. The next day my ph is back above 9. Vinegar is worse. Ph starts to climb back up within 30-60 minutes. Have not tried apple cider or cinnamon yet.

For my outdoor plants, I add 10-15 gum leaves to a 20 litre (5 gal) bucket of water and leave it overnight. Start ph 10.9. End ph 7.1

Extremely stable too. Left a bucket for near 2 weeks and it held the ph nicely.

Might be worth testing different types of leaves. I only use gum leaves because I see about 10,000,000,000 of them while I'm filling the bucket with water.

You can create a more ph down type of substance with a stronger batch. 1/2 fill a bucket with crushed leaves (dry or fresh, doesn't matter) and the remainder with water (maybe use distilled so it doesn't go off as fast). Leave it for 12-24 hours and strain. Leaving it longer I assume will make it more potent. Use the liquid as ph down per required. The strength of it will determine how much you need. I think I needed about 150-200ml per 5 gal with my overnight test liquid. This had to bring the ph down from 10.8-9 to neutral 7.

Urine will drop the ph but I'm not too sure about stability. I was dry reaching testing the ph of my piss water and there was not a hope in hell I was going to leave it 24 hours and test again... Haha!

Forgot to add, the ppm's needed to lower my ph is about 16-18 (NaCl) when using phosphoric acid. It is slightly less when using the leaf juice.

When testing your ph up/down solutions make sure you take into account the percentage change. If you start @ ph 7 and ph down to 6.5. Overnight you get a rise of 0.2 to 6.7. That's nearly 50%, so in my case I may see the ph rise by a fair amount.

10.9 start ph. Ph'ed down to 6.5. A 50% rise takes me back to around 8.7.

ttystikk said:

I'm not sure where to find a cheap substitute for bases

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Potassium hydroxide flakes.

churchhaze said:

Potassium hydroxide flakes.

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Where's a good place to source it?

What colour mustard seeds, white or black?

I haven't tried it yet, I was just thinking about it. They are very acidic and low in salts. Yellow Mustard Seed Powder. I would recommend only during flower. I really wanna try.

saiyaneye said:

I would recommend only during flower. I really wanna try.

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Try first and then recommend.

ttystikk said:

Where's a good place to source it?

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Wherever you find it the cheapest. I have a 500g container I got from the Science Company in 2009 which isn't even close to being empty. (mostly because I don't use pH up often) Essentials Depot is probably where I'd get more since it's a lot cheaper.

One thing I want to throw in is that I don't make a stock solution for pH up as I find it safer in flake form. I prefer to add flakes directly to the reservoir when needed. This avoids the risk of splashing/spilling a strong base.

I didn't reccomend, at the top of the first post in big red bold underlined letters it says "UNTESTED THEORY/HYPOTHESIS"

churchhaze said:

Wherever you find it the cheapest. I have a 500g container I got from the Science Company in 2009 which isn't even close to being empty. (mostly because I don't use pH up often) Essentials Depot is probably where I'd get more since it's a lot cheaper.

One thing I want to throw in is that I don't make a stock solution for pH up as I find it safer in flake form. I prefer to add flakes directly to the reservoir when needed. This avoids the risk of splashing/spilling a strong base.

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Excellent, I'll start hunting around.

Testing with cinnamon. Will have results in about an hour. This is just straight out the tap water.

pH is around 7.3-7.4 - Straight out the tap

Wish I had some mustard powder because I don't need to raise it!

Somehow the cinnamon made the water more alkaline? Could this be because it is not water soluble and possibly the few things that did dissolve were alkaline?

I'm now at like 6.4pH - 6.8pH?

saiyaneye said:

Somehow the cinnamon made the water more alkaline? Could this be because it is not water soluble and possibly the few things that did dissolve were alkaline?

I'm now at like 6.4pH - 6.8pH?

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HUH? You went from ~7.3 to ~6.6...means its acidic.