bicycle racer
Well-Known Member
i dont even know how to respond to that i hope your not sincere and are just being inflammatory for the sake of amusement. if i was arab and thought thats how americans felt i would want to kill you
Poor Poor Israel
- Thread starter medicineman
- Start date
TheBrutalTruth
Well-Known Member
Your arguments fail. You are arguing that Israel, populated by a people that were driven off of their land in the first place, now have no right to return to it, and that the Palestinians, who were the undeserving beneficiaries of what can be called the largesse of Rome, deserve it.
You are making an incomplete argument. You are arguing that as the Jewish were driven off their land, and the Palestinians moved in that now that the Jewish (being the rightful owners) are no longer able to take their lands back.
My example of New Orleans only differs in the scope of the time frame, which bears not on whether the Israeli's have a right to the land they were forced to flee by the destruction of the Temple in 73 AD. By your arguments, if you actually followed them to their logical conclusion, you would see that you are arguing that the Israeli's should and are entitled to have their lands back.
As far as accusing me of being racist, that argument is an epic failure as it does not address the points that I made. Nor does it address the fact that it was Islamist Extremists that destroyed the towers on 9-11. Perhaps you'd care to offer a rebuttal instead of calling names like a childish cur.
While it is true that Israel is essentially an extension of America through its political actions, I do not see any justification for destroying their nation again. An action that you seem to be willing to advocate, but would find yourself opposed if you actually completed your argument to its logical conclusion.
As far as the current conflict between Israel and the Palestinians, as there is no continuation of the Palestinian people as a unique, identifiable nationality then it can be held that the groups claiming to be Palestinians are not actually Palestinians. It is a figment of the imagination drawn up in an attempt to pacify a group that feels justified in continuing a long standing feud between themselves and another nationality that does not ultimately concern the United States. The Israeli's have a right to the land which they were driven off of, because despite being driven off of it they did maintain a distinct, and continuous, identity.
The history of the Middle East after all is steeped in bloodshed, Kurds, Iranians, Shi'ites, Assyrians, Babylonians. It is an area that has been fighting amongst itself since the dawn of humanity. The best course of action would be for the United States to stop involving its nose in their business as we can not do so with out revealing an amazing amount of hypocrisy no matter which side we take.
That seems to be the prevailing Neo-Con threory.
Its what got us in the whole mess in the fist place.
No, leave them to their own devices.
They can learn to love eachother
or they can all die fighting eachother.
I don't care
Quite frankly, I am sick of hearing about Isreal this, lebanon that.
I don't give a shit anymore.
Its seems we have been involved
over there ever since I can remember.
What has it got us?
Wish them all well and leave the region.
Honest trade and friendship with all nations, interferance with none.
The US has no obligation to save the rest of the world from themselves.
We don't have the resources to save them even if we wanted to.
We should be leading by example.
Not by force and manipulation.
We should be the the most free, most wealthy, most advanced nation on earth.
Everyone should be looking to us to see "how its done."
It is most certainly is not done by playing one off the other.
We should be above the world domination game.
Leave that to the British.
Its what got us in the whole mess in the fist place.
No, leave them to their own devices.
They can learn to love eachother
or they can all die fighting eachother.
I don't care
Quite frankly, I am sick of hearing about Isreal this, lebanon that.
I don't give a shit anymore.
Its seems we have been involved
over there ever since I can remember.
What has it got us?
Wish them all well and leave the region.
Honest trade and friendship with all nations, interferance with none.
The US has no obligation to save the rest of the world from themselves.
We don't have the resources to save them even if we wanted to.
We should be leading by example.
Not by force and manipulation.
We should be the the most free, most wealthy, most advanced nation on earth.
Everyone should be looking to us to see "how its done."
It is most certainly is not done by playing one off the other.
We should be above the world domination game.
Leave that to the British.
jeezy42085
Active Member
Its Israels land it clearly states that in the BIBLE i am just saying if you do your history it belongs to them!!!!! they will never stop fighting about this. it has been gowing on for thousands of years and will continue till the World is destroyed. Just sayin. My oppinion!
bicycle racer
Well-Known Member
good post ilkhan i feel likewise. the bible is not a history book its a religious book and not factual just saying.
ruderalis88
Well-Known Member
The current population of Israel has only religion in common with the peoples who were driven from the land originally. As far as i can see there is little or no other link. Those who were displaced in 73 AD did not take up residence on another territory, they spread throughout the world. If i converted to Judaism next week then my decendants would be seen to have a claim to the lands in question. As i have previously stated, it should not be about religion.
Slurring the entire Middle East because of actions which are alleged to have been those of a small group of Islamic Terrorists is racist. It just is. Not all Arabs are Muslims anyway, many are Christian. It's like if i said no Irish peoples' opinions count because some of them are in the IRA/UDA. Or no Basques' opinions count in Spain because ETA exist. Or all Germans in the second world war were Nazis. You're making a negative generalization based on nationality/creed/religion/whatever word you want to use. It's not name calling it's a fact. If i wanted to play at name calling I'd be saying far worse things than that. The statement was intended to address the single point you made "After 9-11 who really cares what the Middle East think". The Middle East is comprised of many different countries and religions, you can't tar them all cause a few individuals have extremist tendencies.
As i have repeatedly stated in this thread i don't think Israel should be abolished i think it should be reduced to the borders initially agreed and i think it should be held accountable for the horrible war crimes it had repeatedly committed. If any Arab nation treated a non-Islamic neighbour the way Israel treats the people of Palestine (or if you really don't want to acknoledge them as such you can say the refugees living on the Gaza strip) you can almost guarantee they would be condemned worldwide and most likely punished by the international community.
Do you also think that the borders of europe, africa and the americas should be redrawn to fit with those which existed in 73 AD? Or even earlier perhaps? There is a great distinction between ancient and modern history which is that in modern history there are international laws which are not supposed to be broken by any country.
And yes, the history of the Middle East is steeped in bloodshed. Just like the history of all of mankind. We are a warlike species, never content with peace for long. It is unfair and inaccurate to single out the Middle East as a hotbed for violence when men women and children alike are shot, stabbed, murdered maimed, raped and abused throughout the West on a sickeningly regular basis. Not to mention the child soldiers and atrocities of Africa. I'm not saying they're particularly good, the Arabs, I'm saying they're no worse than the rest of us. Therefore they deserve the same treatment.
I agree with your stance on the USA, i agree with it on all fronts that they should keep out of the business of countries who do not ask for assistance or intererence. That's not how the American government seems to work however, and it seems that as long as they can condemn Iraq, Iran, Syria, Lebanon, Russia, North Korea, whichever foe you choose to name, they should also be condemning the military actions of Israel.
I'm done, I won't be posting here again. I've said all i have to say and depleted my first hand knowledge of the subject. If you disagree with my logic or my arguments so be it, it happens that i disagree with yours but I don't plan on wasting time trying to tie it in knots or change your opinion. For whichever quibble you pull up next, perhaps actually reading my previous posts and understanding them with an unbiased view point will provide what my answer would be.
I hope that I haven't offended you,that has not been my intention. I don't see how i could have as my only slightly personal remark was based on a statement which you made which was exactly what i described it as being.
Slurring the entire Middle East because of actions which are alleged to have been those of a small group of Islamic Terrorists is racist. It just is. Not all Arabs are Muslims anyway, many are Christian. It's like if i said no Irish peoples' opinions count because some of them are in the IRA/UDA. Or no Basques' opinions count in Spain because ETA exist. Or all Germans in the second world war were Nazis. You're making a negative generalization based on nationality/creed/religion/whatever word you want to use. It's not name calling it's a fact. If i wanted to play at name calling I'd be saying far worse things than that. The statement was intended to address the single point you made "After 9-11 who really cares what the Middle East think". The Middle East is comprised of many different countries and religions, you can't tar them all cause a few individuals have extremist tendencies.
As i have repeatedly stated in this thread i don't think Israel should be abolished i think it should be reduced to the borders initially agreed and i think it should be held accountable for the horrible war crimes it had repeatedly committed. If any Arab nation treated a non-Islamic neighbour the way Israel treats the people of Palestine (or if you really don't want to acknoledge them as such you can say the refugees living on the Gaza strip) you can almost guarantee they would be condemned worldwide and most likely punished by the international community.
Do you also think that the borders of europe, africa and the americas should be redrawn to fit with those which existed in 73 AD? Or even earlier perhaps? There is a great distinction between ancient and modern history which is that in modern history there are international laws which are not supposed to be broken by any country.
And yes, the history of the Middle East is steeped in bloodshed. Just like the history of all of mankind. We are a warlike species, never content with peace for long. It is unfair and inaccurate to single out the Middle East as a hotbed for violence when men women and children alike are shot, stabbed, murdered maimed, raped and abused throughout the West on a sickeningly regular basis. Not to mention the child soldiers and atrocities of Africa. I'm not saying they're particularly good, the Arabs, I'm saying they're no worse than the rest of us. Therefore they deserve the same treatment.
I agree with your stance on the USA, i agree with it on all fronts that they should keep out of the business of countries who do not ask for assistance or intererence. That's not how the American government seems to work however, and it seems that as long as they can condemn Iraq, Iran, Syria, Lebanon, Russia, North Korea, whichever foe you choose to name, they should also be condemning the military actions of Israel.
I'm done, I won't be posting here again. I've said all i have to say and depleted my first hand knowledge of the subject. If you disagree with my logic or my arguments so be it, it happens that i disagree with yours but I don't plan on wasting time trying to tie it in knots or change your opinion. For whichever quibble you pull up next, perhaps actually reading my previous posts and understanding them with an unbiased view point will provide what my answer would be.
I hope that I haven't offended you,that has not been my intention. I don't see how i could have as my only slightly personal remark was based on a statement which you made which was exactly what i described it as being.
bicycle racer
Well-Known Member
well thought out and intelligent post imo.
Cane'Bosem
Well-Known Member
I feel very sad for these people. but I dont understand why you say this "Next time you claim poor poor Israel, think about these children and their parents."
Are we not allowed to feel bad for more than one nation at a time?
Am I not allowed to feel bad for ANY nation who is living in daily fear?
I think poor poor Israel and I also think poor poor Palestine. And there is nothing wrong with that.
Both nations are living in constant fear of death or worse.
As civilians, our duty is to try to help the situation by offering something (aid, time, money, etc.) Not to make the situation worse by encouraging hatred and a lack of empathy for one nation over another.
A word of advice to some of the opinionated people here: I know first hand what goes on In Israel and the territories. Don't be foolish and base your opinions on some video clips. Learn more history and come see for yourself. Only then will I respect your opinions. Until then, STOP making things worse for everyone.
bicycle racer
Well-Known Member
well israel sure kills a lot more palestinians than the other way around but i guess if you kill yourself killing israelis its worse somehow. of course they dont have cool weapons to use to fight fairly against america backed israel. i see your point i do but its a bit one sided currently.
Cane'Bosem
Well-Known Member
Israel kills Palestinian Terrorists, not civilians. Palestinian Terrorists kill Israeli civilians.
Are you under the impression that Israel kills Palestinian civilians intentionally?
Are you aware of how many Israeli soldiers die because instead of blowing up a terrorist hideout, they have to send in infantry because the hideout was placed underground... above a SCHOOL or HOSPITAL?
Did you know that there are Palestinians in high government positions? They are not treated any different than any other Israeli citizens.
Did you know that there are many areas of Israel where Israeli Citizens are forbidden to go? They are stopped at checkpoints where there are big signs that say "Israeli Citizens are not allowed beyond this point."
Did you know that Palestinians can go ANYWHERE in Israel and there are no signs that say "Palestinians are not allowed beyond this point."
Don't forget the goals of each group.
Palestinians: they just want to live in peace.
Israeli's: they jut want to live in peace.
Palestinian terrorists: they want ALL Israeli's to die and for Israel not to exist.
So I am not talking about anyone but terrorists really.
Where do the terrorists live? With the Palestinians.
Well no wonder they put up a fence.
The problem is the terrorists. Killing civilians and putting their own people between a rock and a hard place.
bicycle racer
Well-Known Member
terrorist is a term for the poor with weapons soldier is a term for the stronger sides fighters. what do you think the founding fathers of the us were called back then before the english were defeated. what were the american indians to the colonists or vice versa? israel is in the wrong and will get whats coming to them by there own choices of action. they kill many people the good as well as guilty without much care. how would you fight if you had to engage a well equipped army and had minimal arms yourself?
bicycle racer
Well-Known Member
terrorist is a made up word it means nothing fighting is fighting killing is killing these words are used the same as so many which throughout history mean the weaker less established side is made to look as evil sub humans.
Cane'Bosem
Well-Known Member
I was under the impression that you knew a little bit about what was going on in Israel... i was wrong.
Come to Israel and get educated about the current events. see things for yourself.
Until then, stop spreading hate.
bicycle racer
Well-Known Member
what is it with israel some feel they can do no wrong. its like there is a different standard when speaking about that country and its military action. so if i side with israel its all good but if i say anything against there actions im spreading hate.
bicycle racer
Well-Known Member
i think killing is a tactic of both sides terrorism is just a word. if your killed by a rocket or suicide bomber you will be equally terrified before death.
TheBrutalTruth
Well-Known Member
It gets attacked repeatedly, and you want to punish it for winning... how absurd. The territories it took are nothing more than War Reparations, and War Reparations are usually inflicted on the losers.
The majority of the Territory that Israel has "occupied" such as the Golan Heights and other regions never belonged to a Palestinian State, but belonged to other neighbors such as Syria, Egypt, and Turkey. Amazingly enough those states are no longer calling for the destruction of Israel.
Oh, and learn how to tell the difference between a tongue in cheek comment meant more for laughs than as a serious point. It may actually allow some one to believe that you know something about offering any kind of intelligent debate.
Antidisestablishmentarian
Well-Known Member
They sure were. So were the Hittites, the Egyptians, the Babylonians, etc.
All countries at one time or another have used "terrorist" tactics, but as times change, so do the tactics. They are no longer acceptable in this day and age.
Israel jumped on the bandwagon. When will the Palestinians?
medicineman
New Member
Anti................... says:
"Israel jumped on the bandwagon. When will the Palestinians"?
Bandwagon, Oh, you mean being supplied with tons of money and weapons by the US. I doubt that will happen. The Palestinian lobby in DC is not very strong., as opposed to the Jewish lobby and all those Jewish members of congress. Israel would have been wiped off the map without US support. If the US was supporting the Palestinians instead of Israel, guess who the terrorists would be. For all practical purposes, we should just bring Netanyahu over and let him preside over the senate and house, sort of like an Uber-congressman.
"Israel jumped on the bandwagon. When will the Palestinians"?
Bandwagon, Oh, you mean being supplied with tons of money and weapons by the US. I doubt that will happen. The Palestinian lobby in DC is not very strong., as opposed to the Jewish lobby and all those Jewish members of congress. Israel would have been wiped off the map without US support. If the US was supporting the Palestinians instead of Israel, guess who the terrorists would be. For all practical purposes, we should just bring Netanyahu over and let him preside over the senate and house, sort of like an Uber-congressman.
Antidisestablishmentarian
Well-Known Member
Well, since you want to miss the point, let me make it clear.
I am referring to the bandwagon of non terrorist tactics.
I am referring to the bandwagon of non terrorist tactics.