Potassium Silicat. How do you use yours?

jondamon

jondamon

Well-Known Member
Look I started this thread to ask how you use yours.

Churchhaze you don't use any! Good for you. But unfortunately you can't comment on how you use it.


I don't want this thread turning into a battle about it.


Its not like we're all saying you have to go out and buy this £100 bottle of snake oil.

We the users see benefits in using it vs not using it. IMO this is the experience that counts and its pretty cheap too.


Now having been growing for a few years I only use a limited number of nutes anyway and personally don't buy into the hype of over priced ferts.

I used to, until I refined what products I use and achieve better yields than I did before still with basic nutes.



J
 
Kite High

Kite High

Well-Known Member
churchhaze said:
That first document only studied the concentrations of Si in shoots of different species, but not even a word about what it could be used for or why it's pulling it up. i'll get to the other 3!

Edit : the second sounds like it would be a valid experiment because it uses silicic acid instead of potassium silicate for some of the experiments, but I can only read the abstract.
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well its not my fault you are not a member..I have read all and more...was just trying to broaden your knowledge base but if its too expensive for then I guess you stay where you are
:bigjoint:
 
burgertime2010

burgertime2010

Well-Known Member
It is not expensive enough to merit such intensive opposition, this is not a new discovery, and outdoor soils have naturally occurring silicates most of the time. I have a need to ensure my strains are en route to produce top-quality, vigorous, strong specimens. I have a tricky, vine-like, and vulnerable strain. It is prone to outgrow its own branching and droop, collapse, or snap off even. By and large, my work is sculpted towards finding mechanisms, nutrition, and techniques to make these plants hold up weight. In questioning why you are experiencing success without its use it is simply a matter of your variables in harmony with the needs of your strain. I know, I am able to do a lot more with difficult the genetic material I have. The result is above-average yields on hardier plants that produce large dense colas.....none of which were expected by me or its other fathers.
 
Sativasfied

Sativasfied

Well-Known Member
jondamon said:
Something else to consider about silicat and its uses is that silica is also found in diatomaceous earth. So if you use any DE then you are unknowingly adding silica to your plants.

http://www.pqcorp.com/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=YrDNgSnDcGI%3D&tabid=140&mid=572

http://scholar.google.co.uk/scholar?q=potassium+silicate+nutrient+use&hl=en&as_sdt=0&as_vis=1&oi=scholart&sa=X&ei=AJGcUe_TLIaS0QXCjYCADA&ved=0CC0QgQMwAA


J
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DE is a rich source of insoluble silica, DE does not offer a plant an available form of SiO2, it would have to be a liquid, micronised DE in order for plant uptake. Micronising it down to 5 microns allows for liquid suspension.
 
jrainman

jrainman

Active Member
Silicon can balance elemental nutrients in tissue because its suppressive effects on AL,MN an Na and because it acts to mediate the uptake of P,Mg,K, Fe as well as minors Cu and Zn .this is scientifically documented.

A higher % of plants absorb additional silicon when its avalible

plants that test higher in silicon concentrations in shoots show a more rapid increase in dry mass .
 
jondamon

jondamon

Well-Known Member
Sativasfied said:
DE is a rich source of insoluble silica, DE does not offer a plant an available form of SiO2, it would have to be a liquid, micronised DE in order for plant uptake. Micronising it down to 5 microns allows for liquid suspension.
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From what I've read around 85% of DE is insoluble silica.

Leaving some as soluble.

Dependant entirely upon the grade of DE that is chosen.




J
 
C

churchhaze

Well-Known Member
The problem with everyone's results is that unless you use silicic acid, you're just going to be seeing how well POTASSIUM works. That makes it very hard to see what the silicates are actually doing for you guys.

jondamon said:
Its not like we're all saying you have to go out and buy this £100 bottle of snake oil.

We the users see benefits in using it vs not using it. IMO this is the experience that counts and its pretty cheap too.
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C

churchhaze

Well-Known Member
There are plenty of free research documents, it's just that not many people think to use their time specializing on the silicates pathway when they could be studying something more important like carbon partitioning. (which is what I've been reading about recently) Thanks for linking the ones you did anyway. I'll look more into it. I only got a chance to read the first one and the abstract of the second before sleeping. I still have serious doubts about the effectiveness of silicates.

Kite High said:
well its not my fault you are not a member..I have read all and more...was just trying to broaden your knowledge base but if its too expensive for then I guess you stay where you are
:bigjoint:
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C

churchhaze

Well-Known Member
Yes it is expensive enough, otherwise I wouldn't have bothered responding. I genuinely want to see strong evidence that silicates make any sort of appreciable difference in the growth characteristics of cannabis, or I wouldn't have posted on this thread.

That stuff costs money, and a lot of people are looking for solutions that will make an appreciable difference, and for a well explained reason, not just "specimens with silicon were more resistant to". Is there any physiological explanation for these results? Has anyone experimented on a pool of mutants to isolate the genes responsible for using the Si, because all this is very well understood for other useful elements. Do they use the Si in any proteins, sugars, lipids, or do they just get deposited in the plant like say aluminum or arsenic?.

Why do you think it raises the pH and requires the addition of pH down? If you add phosphoric acid to balance potassium silicate, what do you get? Potassium phosphate? So you add both potassium and phosphate, and call that conclusive evidence that silicates have made a big difference for you?

It might not seem like it, but if I find evidence that silicates will make a difference, I may start using them myself, but it really seems like you guys are just feeding your plants silicate based pH up with potassium, just like I use potassium hydroxide. It would be like using toothpaste to see if silicates harden your teeth with the silica gel base even though there's sodium fluoride suspended in that could be doing all the work.

burgertime2010 said:
It is not expensive enough to merit such intensive opposition
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burgertime2010

burgertime2010

Well-Known Member
I think my PPMs are telling in regard to how the actions of the silicates are not to be confused with Potassium supplementation. As a rule, I use minimal dosages of all additive products. The addition of a full dose of Si would raise pure water by about 100ppms and is 3% K. In this, before the positive effects of K would show up.....the negative effects of silicon overdose would be obvious. The advantages of Potassium cannot really be expressed in a 1/2 dose of Pro-Tekt. I have done my research and as I let go of many unnecessary supplements, I needed this one. I appreciate your hesitance here, really I do......there is so much bullshit in our world here. There is a lot to be skeptical in regard to, I just want to make sure that this is helpful in your research, the information is out there..Godspeed.
 
jrainman

jrainman

Active Member
churchhaze said:
Yes it is expensive enough, otherwise I wouldn't have bothered responding. I genuinely want to see strong evidence that silicates make any sort of appreciable difference in the growth characteristics of cannabis, or I wouldn't have posted on this thread.

That stuff costs money, and a lot of people are looking for solutions that will make an appreciable difference, and for a well explained reason, not just "specimens with silicon were more resistant to". Is there any physiological explanation for these results? Has anyone experimented on a pool of mutants to isolate the genes responsible for using the Si, because all this is very well understood for other useful elements. Do they use the Si in any proteins, sugars, lipids, or do they just get deposited in the plant like say aluminum or arsenic?.

Why do you think it raises the pH and requires the addition of pH down? If you add phosphoric acid to balance potassium silicate, what do you get? Potassium phosphate? So you add both potassium and phosphate, and call that conclusive evidence that silicates have made a big difference for you?

It might not seem like it, but if I find evidence that silicates will make a difference, I may start using them myself, but it really seems like you guys are just feeding your plants silicate based pH up with potassium, just like I use potassium hydroxide. It would be like using toothpaste to see if silicates harden your teeth with the silica gel base even though there's sodium fluoride suspended in that could be doing all the work.
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I have not had to use a PH down when using silicates, I am in hydro though ,and after my silica + nutrients are mixed ,my Ph is 5.7 - 5.8 just where I like to be.if anything I would have to PH up if not using over 2 ml per gallon.. I guess this might be your case with the water you are starting with. my water has a PH of 5.8, so nutes bring it down and silica brings it rite where I started from.5.8, also I have soft water 16 ppm .5 scale.
 
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churchhaze

Well-Known Member
You make it seem like 3% means 3% of 100ppm when it really means 3% of the bottle's weight, including the water. I bet you 100% of that 100ppm is from the potassium and that the silicates just steal an ion and leave the solution.. It's not like the other 97% of that base solution is Si.

burgertime2010 said:
The addition of a full dose of Si would raise pure water by about 100ppms and is 3% K. In this, before the positive effects of K would show up.....the negative effects of silicon overdose would be obvious.
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C

churchhaze

Well-Known Member
K2SiO3 has a molar mass of 154g
2K has a molar mass of 2(39) = 78g
Si has a molar mass of 28g

That means K2SiO3 by mass is:
50.6% K
18.2% Si

The K2O rating (since NPK uses %K2O equivalent) of something that's 50.6% K is:
1.2*50.6 = 60.7% K2O

That gives potassium silicate an NPK ratio of 0-0-60.7 with 18.2% silicon. I really doubt you're going to burn your plants on glass before you burn them on potassium.

I'm guessing if your solution has 3% K2O equivalent, it probably has 1% silicon. It also gives you a pretty good idea on just how diluted your product is.

It doesn't take a single research paper or authority to figure this part out, it just takes a periodic table.

(edit: I changed the K2O conversion factor. I was using the conversion factor for K2O to K instead of K to K2O, which is 1.2. fixed)
 
J

joe macclennan

Well-Known Member
I just started using the protekt about 3 months ago. Since using it there is a noticable difference in stem size. With weaker stemmed varieties like the kush I have it is very beneficial. I used to have to stake each cola. Not so much with the protekt.

I use it at about 4 oz/50 gallon so just over 2ml/gallon
 
Kite High

Kite High

Well-Known Member
churchhaze said:
K2SiO3 has a molar mass of 154g
2K has a molar mass of 2(39) = 78g
Si has a molar mass of 28g

That means K2SiO3 by mass is:
50.6% K
18.2% Si

The K2O rating (since NPK uses %K2O equivalent) of something that's 50.6% K is:
0.83*50.6 = 42% K2O

That gives potassium silicate an NPK ratio of 0-0-42 with 18.2% silicon. I really doubt you're going to burn your plants on glass before you burn them on potassium.

I'm guessing if your solution has 3% K2O equivalent, it probably has 1% silicon. It also gives you a pretty good idea on just how diluted your product is.

It doesn't take a single research paper or authority to figure this part out, it just takes a periodic table.
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So there guaranteed analysis is incorrect? I see 3.7 K and 7.8%Si...By your computations 40 % of the solution is K!!! You would not be able to use it at all.....
 
C

churchhaze

Well-Known Member
Read again. I never said 40% of the solution is K, i said what percentage of K the K2SiO3 is as a salt. You could just go buy the salt and add it to some water and save a lot of money.

Also, notice, I said 18.2% Si, not SiO2 equivalent (SiO2 is freaking sand).

I even showed you the math I used to get that number.. geeze....

3O has a molar mass of 16(3) = 48g.
K2SiO3 has a molar mass of 154g

That means K2SiO3 is 31.2% oxygen by mass.

I already said it was 50.6% K and 18.2% Si

so 31.2% + 50.6% + 18.2% = 100%

Can you figure out what percentage of SiO2 is Si by mass? There's a pretty straight forward way to figure it out.

Kite High said:
So there guaranteed analysis is incorrect? I see 3.7 K and 7.8%Si...By your computations 40 % of the solution is K!!! You would not be able to use it at all.....
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Kite High

Kite High

Well-Known Member
if you employed molar weights to the entire contents of any fert it will look crazy....whatever...it works for me...do or don't do whatever you want
 
C

churchhaze

Well-Known Member
I do exactly that. It takes a lot of the guess work out of the process (the NPK values on the top are of the salts, not the solution itself. It's just written there for my own reference):

View attachment 2668369

There are even nutrient calculators written that do all the work to make mixes (hydrobuddy). I happened to write one myself before I found there were others published. I was very pleased when their calculator gave the exact same results as mine.

The hydrobuddy application even lets you put in the % of each nutrient a label says, and will attempt to reverse engineer it with the salts you tell it to use telling you exactly what their commercial mix is.

Kite High said:
if you employed molar weights to the entire contents of any fert it will look crazy....whatever...it works for me...do or don't do whatever you want
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Kite High

Kite High

Well-Known Member
Church I apologize for allowing this to cause me to look unfavorably towards you. I now can see you are not trying to stir crapola but have true merit to your thoughts.

I thought you were like so many that say things and don't know what they are talking about because their buddy told them so. I see such is not the case with you. Again apologies.

All I wanna say is the Protekt has indeed made a difference in the stem girth and strength and has me not having to hammock big buds in strains that I used to have to hammock. By however ingredient or part/combo it was beneficial.

Thank you and I hope you can overlook my zeal.
 
C

churchhaze

Well-Known Member
I'll really have to pick up K2SiO3 sometime and try it myself. Honestly, I've never used it before so I can't possibly know for sure.

Sorry if I came off a bit hostile as well. I do look at things I haven't needed yet skeptically just because it seems like there's so much bullshit out there. It doesn't help my suspicions that it's always some diluted salt in so much water and sold for such a high price. Also, when people claim they get fatter stems when adding something with so much potassium, it's hard not to think the potassium caused it when potassium helps grow thick stems.

Kite High said:
Church I apologize for allowing this to cause me to look unfavorably towards you. I now can see you are not trying to stir crapola but have true merit to your thoughts.

I thought you were like so many that say things and don't know what they are talking about because their buddy told them so. I see such is not the case with you. Again apologies.

All I wanna say is the Protekt has indeed made a difference in the stem girth and strength and has me not having to hammock big buds in strains that I used to have to hammock. By however ingredient or part/combo it was beneficial.

Thank you and I hope you can overlook my zeal.
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