PPM for organic nutrients

Nutty sKunK

Nutty sKunK

Well-Known Member
I’m using bottle organic nutrients at the moment and need a hand figuring out PPM.

At 1/4 strength I’m getting 180ppm worth of food.

Is this accurate compared to synthetic nutrients?

Or do organic nutrients not follow the PPM rule?
 
Aussieaceae

Aussieaceae

Well-Known Member
Nutty sKunK said:
How would I know that? It’s a bottle of liquid feed so I presume it dissolves?
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What's the product intended as?

If it's organic based but intended as a hydro style product, i'd say probably yes.

But if it's the organic liquid style fertilizer, like you'd give your garden, no. (They're usually thick and smelly)

If your bottle of nutrient is virtually the same consistency as water and only a few mls per litre or gallon, i'd say you're all good measuring ppm.

What does the manufacturer suggest for frequency?
I would generally stick to the manufacturer's recommendations for dosages. (Wouldn't go over their maximum)

Nutrients - measure ppm.
Fertilizer - not accurate and not necessary, would only go by dosage amounts. Because it takes extra time to fully dissolve and breakdown + the matter contains extra salts within and microbes as well. Making ppm an inaccurate measurement.

For what it's worth, if it's a nutrient product only and you think 180ppm isn't enough by all means increase it.
 
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Nutty sKunK

Nutty sKunK

Well-Known Member
Aussieaceae said:
What's the product intended as?

If it's organic based but intended as a hydro style product, i'd say probably yes.

But if it's the organic liquid style fertilizer, like you'd give your garden, no. (They're usually thick and smelly)

If your bottle of nutrient is virtually the same consistency as water and only a few mls per litre or gallon, i'd say you're all good measuring ppm.

What does the manufacturer suggest for frequency?
I would generally stick to the manufacturer's recommendations for dosages. (Wouldn't go over their maximum)

Nutrients - measure ppm.
Fertilizer - not accurate and not necessary, would only go by dosage amounts. Because it takes extra time to fully dissolve and breakdown + the matter contains extra salts within and microbes as well. Making ppm an inaccurate measurement.

For what it's worth, if it's a nutrient product only and you think 180ppm isn't enough by all means increase it.
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It’s intended for soil use only. It’s very watery and seems quite strong too, manufacture recommends 2-4ml per 1L. I’ve been running my plants at 1ml a L and the light feeder is getting 0.5ml

There is no specific frequency - only a chart which gives a weekly breakdown.

That’s the thing. They seem very happy with this light feeding. This was taken a week ago before I had a pH drop and issues with iron/manganese within my water.

Soil they sell also is just a peat blend that’s lightly fertilised.

24C3DDC1-0975-4A01-A988-C4F071B91A2A.jpeg
 
Aussieaceae

Aussieaceae

Well-Known Member
Nutty sKunK said:
It’s intended for soil use only. It’s very watery and seems quite strong too, manufacture recommends 2-4ml per 1L. I’ve been running my plants at 1ml a L and the light feeder is getting 0.5ml

There is no specific frequency - only a chart which gives a weekly breakdown.

That’s the thing. They seem very happy with this light feeding. This was taken a week ago before I had a pH drop and issues with iron/manganese within my water.

Soil they sell also is just a peat blend that’s lightly fertilised.

View attachment 4739029
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I'd say you're golden then my friend. :leaf:
If a quarter dose is what they're liking, I'd personally just stick to it. It's theoretically just topping up what's already in your pot anyway.
Ppm of your solution, is by no means representative of ppms in your pot. And ppms / dissolved solids in your pot, isn't an accurate representation of your soil's ec.
I personally think this is where confusion between synthetic and organic nutrients often lies.
As far as the ppms of dissolved salts in your water though, it's measuring the same thing. Whether organic or synthetic.

Guessing here - Soil use only part, might have to do with the derivatives they use. The dissolved salts in the organic product might be formed and processed differently to their hydroponic counterparts. Salts and chelates might be slightly different, though virtually the same thing.
Not completely sure there, but confident it's on the right track.
 
misterbrandon

misterbrandon

Active Member
Hey guys, I’m new to PPM.
I’m currently on my 8th week of flowering for Amnesia Haze.
Buds are still quite small. (About 1cm big)

I tested the PPM of my nute feed, I’m getting only about 380. I also tested the drip off after feeding and it came to 400+ PPM.
I read during late flowering, I should be feeding at 1100 PPM.

I have read, to increase PPM, I would have to add more nutrients into my feed. But I’m following a feed schedule. Just wondering if I should follow the schedule and continue feeding low PPM or add nutrients to correct PPM? Would adding too much nutrients kill my plants?

Thanks in advance for the advices!
 
Nutty sKunK

Nutty sKunK

Well-Known Member
misterbrandon said:
Hey guys, I’m new to PPM.
I’m currently on my 8th week of flowering for Amnesia Haze.
Buds are still quite small. (About 1cm big)

I tested the PPM of my nute feed, I’m getting only about 380. I also tested the drip off after feeding and it came to 400+ PPM.
I read during late flowering, I should be feeding at 1100 PPM.

I have read, to increase PPM, I would have to add more nutrients into my feed. But I’m following a feed schedule. Just wondering if I should follow the schedule and continue feeding low PPM or add nutrients to correct PPM? Would adding too much nutrients kill my plants?

Thanks in advance for the advices!
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It depends. How do your plants look? Are they hungry? If not continue what u are doing until signs of hunger.

Also before feeding it’s good to know the pH of your soil and if that’s good increase the food.
 
MICHI-CAN

MICHI-CAN

Well-Known Member
I use a water soluble organic? dry fert. It is accurate. You have an accurate PPM from product description. The pic is healthy. A little thirsty and well below nute limits. I would raise your PPM about 50 every feeding until you see the leaf tips claw. Then back down 50 and try adding 50 after a week. Until tips curl again. This is the easiest way I have found to determine max PPM for a plant. And I can max the growth out without harm. A few burnt tips. Just my way.
 
Nutty sKunK

Nutty sKunK

Well-Known Member
MICHI-CAN said:
I use a water soluble organic? dry fert. It is accurate. You have an accurate PPM from product description. The pic is healthy. A little thirsty and well below nute limits. I would raise your PPM about 50 every feeding until you see the leaf tips claw. Then back down 50 and try adding 50 after a week. Until tips curl again. This is the easiest way I have found to determine max PPM for a plant. And I can max the growth out without harm. A few burnt tips. Just my way.
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Good idea.

I found the soil starts at EC 1.2 and I’m getting a run off of just under EC 1.0...

Doubled the dosage for the younger plant and she seems to be liking it! Yellowing has stopped. I’ll check the PPMs but if I remember correctly full strength on their chart tops out at 800-1000ppm if using Epsom salts or not.

I could just be under feeding these plants big time but ime that just leads to sweet smooth buds!!
 
MICHI-CAN

MICHI-CAN

Well-Known Member
Nutty sKunK said:
Good idea.

I found the soil starts at EC 1.2 and I’m getting a run off of just under EC 1.0...

Doubled the dosage for the younger plant and she seems to be liking it! Yellowing has stopped. I’ll check the PPMs but if I remember correctly full strength on their chart tops out at 800-1000ppm if using Epsom salts or not.

I could just be under feeding these plants big time but ime that just leads to sweet smooth buds!!
Click to expand...
I learned in the garden, not on the web. So I'm not the norm. I like and grow grow good buds. The method translates for finding ranges. I suggest dumping the epsoms salt as well. Only good as emergency foliar spray here. Give them some food. Just small increases. 50 - 100 until you see curl. Then no more than 50PPM. All else is good? You'll get close to the lights and strain potential. Happy growing. Peace.
 
Aussieaceae

Aussieaceae

Well-Known Member
MICHI-CAN said:
I use a water soluble organic? dry fert. It is accurate. You have an accurate PPM from product description. The pic is healthy. A little thirsty and well below nute limits. I would raise your PPM about 50 every feeding until you see the leaf tips claw. Then back down 50 and try adding 50 after a week. Until tips curl again. This is the easiest way I have found to determine max PPM for a plant. And I can max the growth out without harm. A few burnt tips. Just my way.
Click to expand...
I guess what I'm getting at is what's immediately soluble vs what's soluble over time?
If we consider the ppm is only as accurate a measurement as the total dissolved solids in a solution. Then we can't accurately measure the ppm of what isn't dissolved yet. Making ppm an inaccurate tool to measure it's total salt content.

I like using liquid organic fertilizer too. But the ones I use are usually fish based + thick and smelly. And recommended application every 2 - 4 weeks.
It's in a soluble form but not "immediately" soluble in water. Takes time to break down.
Also because much of it isn't soluble, the top soil filters the water, leaving the undissolved solids behind. Which makes ph kind of pointless as well, if your soil is properly buffered.

On the contrary, if the nutrient is fully dissolved. Then it is in mostly an immediately available form, making ph of the solution much more important.
 
Nutty sKunK

Nutty sKunK

Well-Known Member
Aussieaceae said:
I guess what I'm getting at is what's immediately soluble vs what's soluble over time?
If we consider the ppm is only as accurate a measurement as the total dissolved solids in a solution. Then we can't accurately measure the ppm of what isn't dissolved yet. Making ppm an inaccurate tool to measure it's total salt content.

I like using liquid organic fertilizer too. But the ones I use are usually fish based + thick and smelly. And recommended application every 2 - 4 weeks.
It's in a soluble form but not "immediately" soluble in water. Takes time to break down.
Also because much of it isn't soluble, the top soil filters the water, leaving the undissolved solids behind. Which makes ph kind of pointless as well, if your soil is properly buffered.

On the contrary, if the nutrient is fully dissolved. Then it is in mostly an immediately available form, making ph of the solution much more important.
Click to expand...
If it takes time for them to break down and become readable does that mean your run off ppm will be somewhat more accurate?
 
MICHI-CAN

MICHI-CAN

Well-Known Member
Aussieaceae said:
I guess what I'm getting at is what's immediately soluble vs what's soluble over time?
If we consider the ppm is only as accurate a measurement as the total dissolved solids in a solution. Then we can't accurately measure the ppm of what isn't dissolved yet. Making ppm an inaccurate tool to measure it's total salt content.

I like using liquid organic fertilizer too. But the ones I use are usually fish based + thick and smelly. And recommended application every 2 - 4 weeks.
It's in a soluble form but not "immediately" soluble in water. Takes time to break down.
Also because much of it isn't soluble, the top soil filters out ghe water, leaving the undissolved solids behind. Which makes ph kind of pointless as well, if your soil is properly buffered.

On the contrary, if the nutrient is fully dissolved. Then it is in mostly an immediately available form, making ph of the solution much more important.
Click to expand...
Are you not demonstrating the difference between water soluble and dry ferts? Not the same. Dry ferts are just that. Time release. Water is only involved as a wetting agent. Not a solution. Water soluble is.suspended in a solution and is available immediately. I believe you are referring to water borne extended, or time release, ferts. These cannot be accurately measured by PPM in solution. And should not be used unless in ground. Hope this helps. Hate complicated BS. LOL>
 
Aussieaceae

Aussieaceae

Well-Known Member
MICHI-CAN said:
Are you not demonstrating the difference between water soluble and dry ferts? Not the same. Dry ferts are just that. Time release. Water is only involved as a wetting agent. Not a solution. Water soluble is.suspended in a solution and is available immediately. I believe you are referring to water borne extended, or time release, ferts. These cannot be accurately measured by PPM in solution. And should not be used unless in ground. Hope this helps. Hate complicated BS. LOL>
Click to expand...
No I'm demonstrating the difference between organic and synthetic nutrients, for plants.

The difference is simple as that. However obvious or complicated it may seem.

Would you agree ppm is only measuring what's dissolved in a solution? Would you also agree the #ppm you get from measuring, is only an accurate measurement for that specific point in time and specific solution?
Not what the same solution becomes after adding it to something else?

Same reason we water the solution down. Nutrient Ppms have to be higher before adding water, right?
It's more concentrated.

Nutty sKunK said:
If it takes time for them to break down and become readable does that mean your run off ppm will be somewhat more accurate?
Click to expand...
It won't be accurate. Because in theory your runoff ppm isn't measuring EC. It's measuring dissolved solids.
Also it's inaccurate in the sense, that waste likely doesn't contain the same ratios of solids once it passes through your soil, as your input.
The water is being filtered through the soil, but simultaneously dissolving solids on the way through as well.
Also the EC of both "could" theoretically be different, even if the Ppms are the same.

Soil EC is a more accurate measurement, if it's the soil you wish to test.
I never test it myself. But if you're curious about it there's a ratio of soil / distilled water, to accurately measure it with an EC meter.

I imagine wiki, Google, or horticultural texts should have it.
 
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MICHI-CAN

MICHI-CAN

Well-Known Member
Aussieaceae said:
No I'm demonstrating the difference between organic and synthetic nutrients, for plants.

The difference is simple as that. However obvious or complicated it may seem.

Would you agree ppm is only measuring what's dissolved in a solution? Would you also agree the #ppm you get from measuring, is only an accurate measurement for that specific point in time and specific solution?
Not what the same solution becomes after adding it to something else?

Same reason we water the solution down. Nutrient Ppms have to be higher before adding water, right?
It's more concentrated.



It won't be accurate. Because in theory your runoff ppm isn't measuring EC. It's measuring dissolved solids.
Also it's inaccurate in the sense, that waste likely doesn't contain the same ratios of solids once it passes through your soil, as your input.
The water is being filtered through the soil, but simultaneously dissolving solids on the way through as well.
Also the EC of both "could" theoretically be different, even if the Ppms are the same.

Soil EC is a more accurate measurement, if it's the soil you wish to test.
I never test it myself. But if you're curious about it there's a ratio of soil / distilled water, to accurately measure it with an EC meter.

I imagine wiki, Google, or horticultural texts should have it.
Click to expand...
I agree. Nutes and the ensuing discussions have too many variables and differing terns for each by locale. PPM is a measure of dissolved solids. I'll avoid the organic/non can o worms. It is a mess at best. Thanks for playing along. Knowledge is our goal. Peace.
 
Aussieaceae

Aussieaceae

Well-Known Member
MICHI-CAN said:
I agree. Nutes and the ensuing discussions have too many variables and differing terns for each by locale. PPM is a measure of dissolved solids. I'll avoid the organic/non can o worms. It is a mess at best. Thanks for playing along. Knowledge is our goal. Peace.
Click to expand...
I agree there and it is best to be as straight to point as possible. (Hence my first post)
Also want to stress that for a plant's own nutrient source, it matters little where it gets it's salts from. Synthetic or organic.

But there's a huge difference between organic and synthetic matter in general. Especially in the context of soil health and "fertilization".
If there's no organic carbon, then what are you fertilizing it with?
And why don't they specify it as a nutrient, not a fertilizer?
There really is a difference between the two.
Synthetic does not = fertile...

If you can keep an open mind, hold onto the idea of carbon. Whether organic carbon, or synthetic carbon, the carbon is a major part of what helps bind these salts together, right?
If not, then what is it that binds the salts into a solid?
All nutrient products have carbon content.

A simple question might be to ask "why do organic fertilizers generally take longer to dissolve than hydro"?
And why do they generally take up more physical space, for the same amount of immediate nutrient?

Explanation: organic carbon vs synthetic carbons.

Where is this theory flawed?

www.britannica.com

Photosynthesis | Definition, Formula, Process, Diagram, Reactants, Products, & Facts | Britannica

Photosynthesis is the process by which green plants and certain other organisms transform light energy into chemical energy. During photosynthesis in green plants, light energy is captured and used to convert water, carbon dioxide, and minerals into oxygen and energy-rich organic compounds.
www.britannica.com www.britannica.com

www.thoughtco.com

Learn About the Carbon Cycle

The carbon cycle describes the storage and exchange of carbon between the Earth's biosphere, atmosphere, hydrosphere, and geosphere.
www.thoughtco.com www.thoughtco.com
.

The Carbon Cycle

Carbon flows between the atmosphere, land, and ocean in a cycle that encompasses nearly all life and sets the thermostat for Earth's climate. By burning fossil fuels, people are changing the carbon cycle with far-reaching consequences.
earthobservatory.nasa.gov earthobservatory.nasa.gov

en.m.wikipedia.org

Carbon cycle - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org en.m.wikipedia.org

Geography4Kids.com: BGC Cycles: Carbon Cycle

Geography4Kids.com! This tutorial introduces the carbon cycle. Other sections include the atmosphere, biosphere, hydrosphere, the Earth, and ecosystems.
www.geography4kids.com
.
 
MICHI-CAN

MICHI-CAN

Well-Known Member
Aussieaceae said:
I agree there and it is best to be as straight to point as possible. (Hence my first post)
Also want to stress that for a plant's own nutrient source, it matters little where it gets it's salts from. Synthetic or organic.

But there's a huge difference between organic and synthetic matter in general. Especially in the context of soil health and "fertilization".
If there's no organic carbon, then what are you fertilizing it with?
And why don't they specify it as a nutrient, not a fertilizer?
There really is a difference between the two.
Synthetic does not = fertile...

If you can keep an open mind, hold onto the idea of carbon. Whether organic carbon, or synthetic carbon, the carbon is a major part of what helps bind these salts together, right?
If not, then what is it that binds the salts into a solid?
All nutrient products have carbon content.

A simple question might be to ask "why do organic fertilizers generally take longer to dissolve than hydro"?
And why do they generally take up more physical space, for the same amount of immediate nutrient?

Explanation: organic carbon vs synthetic carbons.

Where is this theory flawed?

www.britannica.com

Photosynthesis | Definition, Formula, Process, Diagram, Reactants, Products, & Facts | Britannica

Photosynthesis is the process by which green plants and certain other organisms transform light energy into chemical energy. During photosynthesis in green plants, light energy is captured and used to convert water, carbon dioxide, and minerals into oxygen and energy-rich organic compounds.
www.britannica.com www.britannica.com

www.thoughtco.com

Learn About the Carbon Cycle

The carbon cycle describes the storage and exchange of carbon between the Earth's biosphere, atmosphere, hydrosphere, and geosphere.
www.thoughtco.com www.thoughtco.com
.

The Carbon Cycle

Carbon flows between the atmosphere, land, and ocean in a cycle that encompasses nearly all life and sets the thermostat for Earth's climate. By burning fossil fuels, people are changing the carbon cycle with far-reaching consequences.
earthobservatory.nasa.gov earthobservatory.nasa.gov

en.m.wikipedia.org

Carbon cycle - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org en.m.wikipedia.org

Geography4Kids.com: BGC Cycles: Carbon Cycle

Geography4Kids.com! This tutorial introduces the carbon cycle. Other sections include the atmosphere, biosphere, hydrosphere, the Earth, and ecosystems.
www.geography4kids.com
.
Click to expand...
I hope the OP can digest all that. Sorry. He needs more food and his readings are in the ballpark.

Reading that is suggested. In the mean time use an insect shell based product for carbs. And be sparing. I actually collect mine under the bug zappers outdoors. LOL. K.I.S.S..

Peace.
 
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