PPM for organic nutrients

MICHI-CAN said:

I hope the OP can digest all that. Sorry. He needs more food and his readings are in the ballpark.

Reading that is suggested. In the mean time use an insect shell based product for carbs. And be sparing. I actually collect mine under the bug zappers outdoors. LOL. K.I.S.S..

Peace.

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Didn't you just start growing this year? I keep seeing you throw out bad advice.

PadawanWarrior said:

Didn't you just start growing this year? I keep seeing you throw out bad advice.

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You still stalking me. Yep a big year. Bad advice by your locale and tunnel vision. Great advice here that is from the ground. LOL. The board is yours. Enter.... oops...enlighten me.

MICHI-CAN said:

I hope the OP can digest all that. Sorry. He needs more food and his readings are in the ballpark.

Reading that is suggested. In the mean time use an insect shell based product for carbs. And be sparing. I actually collect mine under the bug zappers outdoors. LOL. K.I.S.S..

Peace.

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Well I hate to contradict what you're saying, but you asked me a direct question as your first post. So I was very much obliged to answer.

What's your point in relation to this thread's heading?
It's bottled organic nutrient.

And if you're going to be patronizing, then don't bother. Who here are you LOLing at and calling stupid, exactly?
Myself or the OP? And in comparison to whom exactly?
The science? Well then show me the science and explain what I stated to you that isn't true.

Yes I agree, K.I.S.S is a great rule to follow.

What you asked me was not a simple question.

That sounds accurate.. If the Organic Nutrients are liquid then they should be chelated & plant available.. You're going to want to shoot for at least 500 ppm to get any real gains. I'm always running 500-900 ppm range with any nutrients I use organic or synthetic. This is going to be very tricky if you are growing in already fertilized soil as you have the potential to burn your plants. I would only feed liquid nutrients if your noticing the soil isn't supplying the plants or your seeing a deficiency. If you want to grow with liquid nutrients then why not just grow in Coco and avoid soil altogether?

To answer your question PPM is going to vary by product as some are more concentrated than others, usually this does correlate with PPM although I've had some products that are extremely potent and end up only being ~100 ppm. With base nutrients usually they're designed to be ran around 800-1400 PPM or 1.2-2 EC (Electro Conductivity or Conductivity Factor).

Nutty sKunK said:

It depends. How do your plants look? Are they hungry? If not continue what u are doing until signs of hunger.

Also before feeding it’s good to know the pH of your soil and if that’s good increase the food.

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I guess they are looking a little small. What are signs of hunger? I know they had nute burn so I flushed her and now it seems the browning has stopped.

I’m growing in coco x perlite, how do I check the pH for coco? How much to increase? I’m afraid to over feed and bring back the nute burns.

calvin.m16 said:

That sounds accurate.. If the Organic Nutrients are liquid then they should be chelated & plant available.. You're going to want to shoot for at least 500 ppm to get any real gains. I'm always running 500-900 ppm range with any nutrients I use organic or synthetic. This is going to be very tricky if you are growing in already fertilized soil as you have the potential to burn your plants. I would only feed liquid nutrients if your noticing the soil isn't supplying the plants or your seeing a deficiency. If you want to grow with liquid nutrients then why not just grow in Coco and avoid soil altogether?

To answer your question PPM is going to vary by product as some are more concentrated than others, usually this does correlate with PPM although I've had some products that are extremely potent and end up only being ~100 ppm. With base nutrients usually they're designed to be ran around 800-1400 PPM or 1.2-2 EC (Electro Conductivity or Conductivity Factor).

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Its lightly fertilised so can feed early. Thanks dude, makes sense.

Had this bag here and the nutes so using what I have. Coco is ok but don’t like the watering every day idea.

I think they are somewhat accurate cause as I said the breeders schedule goes up to around 800-1000ppm.

I know run off isn’t the most accurate but for me it’s showing 480 when the feed is around the 400 mark just now.

I also added worm castings to the soil so that’s accounting for some PPM, when I see it laid out like this it does look like hunger issues plaguing me just now.

Fed this girl 600ppm and she’s responding well!

Aussieaceae said:

No I'm demonstrating the difference between organic and synthetic nutrients, for plants.

The difference is simple as that. However obvious or complicated it may seem.

Would you agree ppm is only measuring what's dissolved in a solution? Would you also agree the #ppm you get from measuring, is only an accurate measurement for that specific point in time and specific solution?
Not what the same solution becomes after adding it to something else?

Same reason we water the solution down. Nutrient Ppms have to be higher before adding water, right?
It's more concentrated.



It won't be accurate. Because in theory your runoff ppm isn't measuring EC. It's measuring dissolved solids.
Also it's inaccurate in the sense, that waste likely doesn't contain the same ratios of solids once it passes through your soil, as your input.
The water is being filtered through the soil, but simultaneously dissolving solids on the way through as well.
Also the EC of both "could" theoretically be different, even if the Ppms are the same.

Soil EC is a more accurate measurement, if it's the soil you wish to test.
I never test it myself. But if you're curious about it there's a ratio of soil / distilled water, to accurately measure it with an EC meter.

I imagine wiki, Google, or horticultural texts should have it.

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Sweet dude. I’ve got some distilled water I can try that with. Also measure my pH at the same time or is that pointless?

misterbrandon said:

I guess they are looking a little small. What are signs of hunger? I know they had nute burn so I flushed her and now it seems the browning has stopped.

I’m growing in coco x perlite, how do I check the pH for coco? How much to increase? I’m afraid to over feed and bring back the nute burns.

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Well if you had nute burn back of the feed.

Get yourself a PPM and pH meter for coco - really is needed much more than soil.

From what I remember if u measure your feed input and measure that against your waste run off you can see if they are feeding or not.

Nutty sKunK said:

Sweet dude. I’ve got some distilled water I can try that with. Also measure my pH at the same time or is that pointless?

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Nah, the pH is equally as important really. Because it can be an indication of what those ppms contain. Same as soil and EC.

Nutty sKunK said:

Sweet dude. I’ve got some distilled water I can try that with. Also measure my pH at the same time or is that pointless?

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Please excuse me too. I meant to say that's why it's important the water is distilled as well, for accuracy.

Good luck.

Aussieaceae said:

Nah, the pH is equally as important really. Because it can be an indication of what those ppms contain. Same as soil and EC.

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I seem to remember it’s hard to measure pH as there’s no buffer in the distilled water? Or should it be pH 7 out the bottle?

Cheers man!

Nutty sKunK said:

I seem to remember it’s hard to measure pH as there’s no buffer in the distilled water? Or should it be pH 7 out the bottle?

Cheers man!

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Yes so to speak. The distilled water is empty of salts so to speak. Salts are what's affecting the pH. As well as the air.
Yes, so long as the ec/ppm is near zero, then measuring soil EC will be pretty close to accurate.
But also bare in mind, for the same reason input ppm is not the same as output ppm. And because neither is a true indication of soil EC, then they are equally inaccurate in measuring soil pH as well... (nutrient solutions and water waste / runoff, or input / out put)
A soil test kit, or soil specific device is best for measuring soil pH.

No worries. Happy to share man!
Plant looks super tasty!

Just to clarify @Nutty sKunK, ph'ing your distilled water while testing soil EC, is unnecessary.
Also potentially counter productive.
But it is important to know what pH your soil is. Because it's an indication of what salts/nutrients are in there, with the combination of your soil's EC.

Have a good 1 mate. Cheers.

Aussieaceae said:

Just to clarify @Nutty sKunK, ph'ing your distilled water while testing soil EC, is unnecessary.
Also potentially counter productive.
But it is important to know what pH your soil is. Because it's an indication of what salts/nutrients are in there, with the combination of your soil's EC.

Have a good 1 mate. Cheers.

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Aye didn’t pH the water. Gonna let it sit for 30 mins then check it. 1 part soil to 2 part water.

pH when I checked ranges from 5.3 to 4.8. She is lower in the center of the pot where the old rootball is. Because she was transplanted.

I messed up I think cause with my soft water I should’ve limed the soil.

always learning aren’t u when growing MJ lol

Aussieaceae said:

Yes so to speak. The distilled water is empty of salts so to speak. Salts are what's affecting the pH. As well as the air.
Yes, so long as the ec/ppm is near zero, then measuring soil EC will be pretty close to accurate.
But also bare in mind, for the same reason input ppm is not the same as output ppm. And because neither is a true indication of soil EC, then they are equally inaccurate in measuring soil pH as well... (nutrient solutions and water waste / runoff, or input / out put)
A soil test kit, or soil specific device is best for measuring soil pH.

No worries. Happy to share man!
Plant looks super tasty!

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Well 30 mins has passed and it’s reading 60ppm and pH 7.0... so by that I need to feed way more?

Soil was taken a few inches below the surface near the center. I did water the past two waterings so perhaps I’ve really been under feeding them?

Nutty sKunK said:

Aye didn’t pH the water. Gonna let it sit for 30 mins then check it. 1 part soil to 2 part water.

pH when I checked ranges from 5.3 to 4.8. She is lower in the center of the pot where the old rootball is. Because she was transplanted.

I messed up I think cause with my soft water I should’ve limed the soil.

always learning aren’t u when growing MJ lol

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Nutty sKunK said:

Well 30 mins has passed and it’s reading 60ppm and pH 7.0... so by that I need to feed way more?

Soil was taken a few inches below the surface near the center. I did water the past two waterings so perhaps I’ve really been under feeding them?

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Correct. If you can be certain the drop in ph isn't the cause of over watering, and rule over watering out.
Bare in mind, if potential hydrogen and pH are the same thing, then we are essentially adding hydrogen and oxygen, each time we water.

Afaik and am aware,
After we water, that water filters down the soil, picking up salts and leaving some behind, on the way through the soil. Both in what it contains and what attached / attaches to it. But is also losing oxygen / hydrogen as well. The H2O is essentially splitting apart.
Oxygen escapes the soil as a gas and hydrogen stays in the soil.
More potential hydrogen = higher potential Hydrogen. (pH) Add more hydrogen and pH will fall.
Take into consideration the mass, volume and density, of both the soil and H20, when determining the cause of your soil's pH value. Remember it could be a combination of overwatering + overfeeding. And that overwatering and overfeeding are the 2 most common plant problems.
H2O's relationship with pH and soil / substrate is the reason why.

Consider all these things with your grow at the moment...You have your input EC and pH + soil pH and soil EC. What's it all suggesting, could be anything causing the current pH value, right?
Well I challenge said notion and suggest it is one of two things, or both. Overfeeding + Overwatering. When observing the relationship between soil mass, density, texture, h2O, salts, pH, aeration / drainage and environment.
Bare in mind that because of your soil's own WHC, mass, volume and density, then it is damper in the center of your pot, or bottom. Those are the places where oxygen will escape your soil, if left too wet, too often. (hence your varied results first test)

For these reasons that's why ruling out overwatering before adding more nutrient, is so important.
With the combination of soil pH and soil EC, you can guess best as to which it may be. Or a combination of both.

I would say yes, your plants need more nutrients and your soil needs lime. If they have improved on adding more nutrient and the soil's own EC is consistent with your input vs output.
Same time I'd stress, more isn't always better either. If you're seeing improvement, it mightn't be best to increase input EC, until you're confident they'll like it.
Remember in reality you still have no idea of the salts in your soil. But you can much better guess with the combination of soil pH and soil EC.

Hope it makes sense and helps. Difficult information to put into words and explain, so I'm sorry in advance for any error.

Nutty sKunK said:

always learning aren’t u when growing MJ lol

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Mate tell me about it! Don't think there's a single grow of my own I can't fault, or fuck up in some way.
MJ is such a good teacher in the garden.

Aussieaceae said:

Correct. If you can be certain the drop in ph isn't the cause of over watering, and rule over watering out.
Bare in mind, if potential hydrogen and pH are the same thing, then we are essentially adding hydrogen and oxygen, each time we water.

Afaik and am aware,
After we water, that water filters down the soil, picking up salts and leaving some behind, on the way through the soil. Both in what it contains and what attached / attaches to it. But is also losing oxygen / hydrogen as well. The H2O is essentially splitting apart.
Oxygen escapes the soil as a gas and hydrogen stays in the soil.
More potential hydrogen = higher potential Hydrogen. (pH) Add more hydrogen and pH will fall.
Take into consideration the mass, volume and density, of both the soil and H20, when determining the cause of your soil's pH value. Remember it could be a combination of overwatering + overfeeding. And that overwatering and overfeeding are the 2 most common plant problems.
H2O's relationship with pH and soil / substrate is the reason why.

Consider all these things with your grow at the moment...You have your input EC and pH + soil pH and soil EC. What's it all suggesting, could be anything causing the current pH value, right?
Well I challenge said notion and suggest it is one of two things, or both. Overfeeding + Overwatering. When observing the relationship between soil mass, density, texture, h2O, salts, pH, aeration / drainage and environment.
Bare in mind that because of your soil's own WHC, mass and density, then it is damper in the center of your pot, or bottom. Those are the places where oxygen will escape your soil, if left too wet, too often. (hence your varied results first test)

For these reasons that's why ruling out overwatering before adding more nutrient, is so important.
With the combination of soil pH and soil EC, you can guess best as to which it may be. Or a combination of both.

I would say yes, your plants need more nutrients and your soil needs lime. If they have improved on adding more nutrient and the soil's own EC is consistent with your input vs output.
Same time I'd stress, more isn't always better either. If you're seeing improvement, it mightn't be best to increase input EC, until you're confident they'll like it.
Remember in reality you still have no idea of the salts in your soil. But you can much better guess with the combination of soil pH and soil EC.

Hope it makes sense and helps. Difficult information to put into words and explain, so I'm sorry in advance for any error.



Mate tell me about it! Don't think there's a single grow of my own I can't fault, or fuck up in some way.
MJ is such a good teacher in the garden.

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So I’m bubbling my water to remove chlorine.. my chemistry isnot good at all. So could bubbling it add more hydrogen along with the added oxygen?

Well I tested my bagged soil and it read 4.9 so yea - it’s acidic from the get go. Not much has changed in that respect. My work castings are alkaline.

1 of them was drinking like clock work until a week or so ago. Noticed she was still a little damp. So I waited another day and cal deficiencies started to show again. She is approaching the end of her life cycle so I know plants tend to drink less nearer the end of their lives but this seemed very sudden.

Gave plain water for a couple waterings but still too damp. Flushed her today and gave a balanced feed. Yellowed so fast. One thing that gets me is that can I not help it? Are some plants just gonna yellow no matter what one does?

I’ll grab a pic tomorrow but the yellowing always hits my top/middle leaves first..

Nutty sKunK said:

So I’m bubbling my water to remove chlorine.. my chemistry isnot good at all. So could bubbling it add more hydrogen along with the added oxygen?

Well I tested my bagged soil and it read 4.9 so yea - it’s acidic from the get go. Not much has changed in that respect. My work castings are alkaline.

1 of them was drinking like clock work until a week or so ago. Noticed she was still a little damp. So I waited another day and cal deficiencies started to show again. She is approaching the end of her life cycle so I know plants tend to drink less nearer the end of their lives but this seemed very sudden.

Gave plain water for a couple waterings but still too damp. Flushed her today and gave a balanced feed. Yellowed so fast. One thing that gets me is that can I not help it? Are some plants just gonna yellow no matter what one does?

I’ll grab a pic tomorrow but the yellowing always hits my top/middle leaves first..

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Yeah either lime, or more aeration, or water less often, or less salts + more H2O.

No, aeration is the most important thing for H2O. Whether it be sourced from porous spaces and material, the air itself, your soil, or an air stone in a reservoir.
Stagnant water is nearly always oxygen deprived. It also encourages anaerobic activity + disease.

If we apply the combination of photosynthesis, H2O, pH, EC, carbons and environment. Then in reality organic vs hydro is no different to a plant, if a plant is what we're trying to "cultivate".
The difference is synthetic vs organic environment.

Definitely no chemist myself either.
May I offer a deep rabbit hole to venture down? Chicken and egg scenario. Maybe you can help me figure it out...?

If for one moment we consider life forms are "hydrocarbons" and also have an EC. A charge coursing through our bodies, like the motherboard in a computer. And consider heat + light is what creates electricity, that electricity is essentially light energy.
Well wouldn't light, H2O,pH, EC, organic carbon, carbon cycle and environment be the ingredients to life?! And what specific ratio to reach life energy?

What's the difference between organic carbon and synthetic carbon?
I know for sure one of them generally takes up more physical space and is alive...

Aussieaceae said:

Yeah either lime, or more aeration, or water less often, or less salts + more H2O.

No, aeration is the most important thing for H2O. Whether it be sourced from porous spaces and material, the air itself, your soil, or an air stone in a reservoir.
Stagnant water is nearly always oxygen deprived. It also encourages anaerobic activity + disease.

If we apply the combination of photosynthesis, H2O, pH, EC, carbons and environment. Then in reality organic vs hydro is no different to a plant, if a plant is what we're trying to "cultivate".
The difference is synthetic vs organic environment.

Definitely no chemist myself either.
May I offer a deep rabbit hole to venture down? Chicken and egg scenario. Maybe you can help me figure it out...?

If for one moment we consider life forms are "hydrocarbons" and also have an EC. A charge coursing through our bodies, like the motherboard in a computer. And consider heat + light is what creates electricity, that electricity is essentially light energy.
Well wouldn't light, H2O,pH, EC, organic carbon, carbon cycle and environment be the ingredients to life?! And what specific ratio to reach life energy?

What's the difference between organic carbon and synthetic carbon?
I know for sure one of them generally takes up more physical space and is alive...

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Pretty much - but the one ingredient to life which is the key is consciousness.

Synthetic carbon is simply rearranging organic
Carbon no?

I’ve wondered something similar at how we can grow matter through light. Once the water content is removed from any foliage the matter is left. Does this mean the earths getting heavier? XD

Nutty sKunK said:

Pretty much - but the one ingredient to life which is the key is consciousness.

Synthetic carbon is simply rearranging organic
Carbon no?

I’ve wondered something similar at how we can grow matter through light. Once the water content is removed from any foliage the matter is left. Does this mean the earths getting heavier? XD

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Tell me about it man!
Because if heat and electricity is the product of mass x light squared. Then wtf are we, if our life is energy!?

If organic carbon takes up more physical space and there's this invisible world we can't see. Maybe a carbon cylce is the answer?

Fkn life man lol. Confusing as all get out.

Edit: @Nutty sKunK I have to correct myself about organic carbon too. I feel it's important to say, because gardening is as far as my chemistry goes.
And in the context of chemistry my own understanding of carbon is flawed...

Organics I've always assumed something is "organic" if nature can use it and made it. Even minerals.

Then you have plastics... completely synthetic and takes 1000 years to decompose...

Just had to correct my own misuse of the terminology.

Have a good one.