"Prop 19 written to take away medical growers rights"

vertise

Well-Known Member
I view my bud as something that is only good because of the person that grows it. Its like going out to eat at olive garden vs going out to eat at a nice mom and pop owned italian restaurant. 9 out of 10 times the mom and pop does it better and will always do it better. Not saying olive garden is bad but its nothing special.
 

vertise

Well-Known Member
so i would rather go spend money on that small grower who wow's me every time with there bud then that large grower who just doesnt produce the same quality. Smokers always want the best.
 

squarepush3r

Well-Known Member
Not true. A city can allow no less than 25sq feet. They can raise that limit as high as they want. Read the bill.
bro i quoted it twice already

Cultivate, on private property by the owner, lawful occupant, or other lawful resident or guest of the private property owner or lawful occupant, cannabis plants for personal consumption only, in an area of not more than 25 square feet per private residence or, in the absence of any residence, the parcel.


so i would rather go spend money on that small grower who wow's me every time with there bud then that large grower who just doesnt produce the same quality. Smokers always want the best.
right, and you won't be able to sell anything under prop 19. Only big corporations will be able to (hence, Richard Lee).
 

vertise

Well-Known Member
not true you will still be able to purchase from smaller growers. The ones who choose to still sell just pay a higher tax then those who grow for personal use. Its all dependent on the size of your operation.
 

vertise

Well-Known Member
also what alot of you guys do not get is its still illegal federally and a lot of large companies such as those in the tobacco industry will not enter into growing marijuana. They cannot run the risk of the federal government taking them to court and dismantling there multi billion dollar corporations.
 

khm916

Active Member
No one can get a prescription for marijuana as there is no dosing what you get is a recommendation.

Edit: unless its marinol
 

khm916

Active Member
Yes they can specify garden size, but its not like they say smoke 2 doobies as needed, because, the quality of weed changes.
 

Dan Kone

Well-Known Member
bro i quoted it twice already

Cultivate, on private property by the owner, lawful occupant, or other lawful resident or guest of the private property owner or lawful occupant, cannabis plants for personal consumption only, in an area of not more than 25 square feet per private residence or, in the absence of any residence, the parcel.


Yes, but you left out a key part of the bill.

(a) Amendments to the limitations in section 11300, which limitations are minimum thresholds and the Legislature may adopt less restrictive limitations.
That clearly allows legislature to adopt less restrictive limitations as well as making the 25sq feet a minimum limit.

Only big corporations will be able to (hence, Richard Lee).
No no no. There is nothing in prop 19 that allows only big corporations. It just says you have to form a corporation to grow/sell legally for profit. My lawyer formed me a corporation in an afternoon. That isn't prohibitive or limited to millionaires. Asking people to form a legal business before selling/growing for profit isn't unreasonable at all. If people are too lazy to do this simple thing then too bad. Their laziness shouldn't be my problem.
 

squarepush3r

Well-Known Member
Yes, but you left out a key part of the bill.



That clearly allows legislature to adopt less restrictive limitations as well as making the 25sq feet a minimum limit.



No no no. There is nothing in prop 19 that allows only big corporations. It just says you have to form a corporation to grow/sell legally for profit. My lawyer formed me a corporation in an afternoon. That isn't prohibitive or limited to millionaires. Asking people to form a legal business before selling/growing for profit isn't unreasonable at all. If people are too lazy to do this simple thing then too bad. Their laziness shouldn't be my problem.
i hope, but the liscensing fees right now in Oakland for the mega pot factories were somethign in the ballpark of $200,000 each, per application. Doesn't sound too friendly.
 

vradd

Active Member
also what alot of you guys do not get is its still illegal federally and a lot of large companies such as those in the tobacco industry will not enter into growing marijuana. They cannot run the risk of the federal government taking them to court and dismantling there multi billion dollar corporations.
dude u didnt get the memo? big tobacco is in cahoots with the govt. why else would a SCIENTIFICALLY known substance that CAN kill you, be legal?
if you know your history our country was founded in parts with the cultivation of tobacco. just all our fore fathers found tobacco before they found the pot.

money talks and big tobacco is making out with millions and making those who they can 'buy' millionaires as well.
 

squarepush3r

Well-Known Member
dude u didnt get the memo? big tobacco is in cahoots with the govt. why else would a SCIENTIFICALLY known substance that CAN kill you, be legal?
if you know your history our country was founded in parts with the cultivation of tobacco. just all our fore fathers found tobacco before they found the pot.

money talks and big tobacco is making out with millions and making those who they can 'buy' millionaires as well.
yeah, especially right now basically the issue is, the medical growers aren't being taxed. enter prop 19, commercialization, etc...
 

vradd

Active Member
i hope, but the liscensing fees right now in Oakland for the mega pot factories were somethign in the ballpark of $200,000 each, per application. Doesn't sound too friendly.
this is because if it pass's its going to be a BIG tax game. only the big ballers who can afford to play will reap the rewards of the taxation. to be honest, very honest, i dont know why everyone and their moms are trying to make this a small business. with as many advocates as their are now, and with those who are financially capable, why not let them take care of the sales? i mean its not like a new strain is comming out all the time. how many times can you capitalize on master kush? and its not like every shop is on par with shop prices anyways. most are damn near close to street prices and the difference is a sack of dank has never failed to get me blitzed vs buying into a shops 'brand' for that extra 10$. also ive noticed most of the shops employees dont seem knowledable in the stuff, they kinda just resite the same basic info i can google over before making a trip. if i say i need something for stomach problems but i need a smooth smoke that wont make me cough if i should end up taking a fat rip i wanna hear the strain that takes care of that, not the one with the most crystals or the dank smelliest because its 'top shelf'.

i want this stuff legalized just like the next person but really now that ive gone into the research of medical cannabis (not marijuana you ignorant fucks, at least get the real name down and not acknowledge it by its propoganda name) but sometimes i think shops could use a lesson in what their claiming and whats their presenting.

maybe its just the area im in, i do hear TONS of stories of having to drive an hour to LA to get the truly 'compationate' deals. and at the same time i see on the news all these shops getting shut down and people are bitching over it. but they dont have common sense and the basic concept of a selling market when theyre parked 500ft from the next guy. if these shops were smart they'd spread out and make shop around other shops that they know they can out do the prices.
 
I can grow whatever I need in a 5X5 space, and that's all I care about. I started growing to get free of profiteering assholes, and 5X5 is just fine with me. The only people who should have a problem with this are those who don't want Phillip Morris cutting into their profits. Defeat the profiteers and redefine the Victory Garden. They're giving us the means (supposing 19 passes), prove you don't have to be a slave to the corporation and you'll stand taller than the Jolly Green Giant.
 

squarepush3r

Well-Known Member
I can grow whatever I need in a 5X5 space, and that's all I care about. I started growing to get free of profiteering assholes, and 5X5 is just fine with me. The only people who should have a problem with this are those who don't want Phillip Morris cutting into their profits. Defeat the profiteers and redefine the Victory Garden. They're giving us the means (supposing 19 passes), prove you don't have to be a slave to the corporation and you'll stand taller than the Jolly Green Giant.
right, but with prop 19 you can be taxed on what you grow in for your personal consumption, in a 5x5 space. One country is propsing a $600 per sq foot yearly tax.
 

Dan Kone

Well-Known Member
One country is propsing a $600 per sq foot yearly tax.

Not one country, not even one county. One city out of 500 cities and counties in California will be doing this. It's very unlikely that this law is constitutional. Even if it passes, it's not likely to ever go into effect. The courts will strike it down.
 

squarepush3r

Well-Known Member
Not one country, not even one county. One city out of 500 cities and counties in California will be doing this. It's very unlikely that this law is constitutional. Even if it passes, it's not likely to ever go into effect. The courts will strike it down.
well, yes and no. Right now it is unconstitutional, since prop 215 doesn't allow it. However, if prop 19 passes, then you bet it will not only be constitutional, but written right into prop 19 that they have this power.
 

squarepush3r

Well-Known Member
http://votetaxcannabis2010.blogspot.com/p/attorney-dragonfly-is-correct-about.html





ATTORNEY: "Dragonfly Is Correct About Prop. 19's Impact on Patients"


Dragonfly Is Correct About Prop. 19's Impact on Patients

(found on the modesto bee's web site: http://thehive.modbee.com/node/20404)

Submitted by letitiapepper on Thu, 2010-08-19 16:52.

Dragonfly's analysis has been trashed on the Internet by pro-Prop. 19 bloggers. So I did my own analysis as to whether Prop. 19 would change the laws related to medical marijuana, and in my opinion she's absolutely correct.

I have been an attorney for almost 30 years. I went to Hastings College of the Law, one of California’s top schools, was on the Hastings Law Journal, and have more than 20 years of experience working as a judicial research attorney for the State of California and for the federal district court. I prepared draft opinions in which I presented, from a neutral rather than adversarial perspective, the applicable laws and facts, with conclusions about final results/consequences. (I even once worked (from 1984 to 1987) as a business and municipal law litigation associate at Best, Best & Krieger (yep, the same law firm that’s been advising lots of cities to ban medical marijuana (MM) collectives).)

So, I’m well-qualified to review Prop. 19. Plus, I had a reason to do so.

Two years ago, I became a medical marijuana patient after terrible problems with side effects from prescription medications and after doing research on cannabis. Since I am convinced that marijuana is the non-prescription answer for many diseases, including mine (multiple sclerosis), I want to be able to grow my own medication, and to be able to experiment with and make as many different variants of cannabis-based medications as possible.

Based on my expertise and review of prop. 19, I can now state, categorically, that if Proposition 19 passes, it WILL affect medical marijuana patients and collectives. It will limit patients to tiny grow areas -- one per parcel, not one per patient -- and allow cities to legally ban collectives (the current bans are, in my opinion, illegal). And it will probably cause the price of marijuana to go up, put the profits from marijuana into the hands of a few large businesses instead of a lot of small businesses, and, depending on the goodwill of politicians in Santa Cruz, put compassionate collective groups like the Wo/Man’s collective out of business. But let’s skip speculation about how decreased competition affects prices, and just stick to whether or not, as a matter of alw, Prop. 19 will change patients’ rights under the Compassionate Use Act, Health & Safety Code section 11362.5 (“the CUA”).

Inititatives like Prop. 19 are reviewed by courts using specific rules, generally known as rules of statutory interpretation. Under those rules, any arguments or statements by Chris Conrad or Russ Belville, or the flyers handed put by the pro-Prop. 19 people that claim medical marijuana patients won’t be affected, have no relevance. Instead, it’s the actual language of Prop. 19 that counts. (Get the complete text at http://ballotpedia.org/wiki/index.php/Complete_text_of_The_Regulate,_Control_and_Tax_Cannabis_Act_of_2010_(California). Only if the text is ambiguous will a court look any further than the text – and then only at certain items, such as ballot summaries -- not at general commentary by people like Conrad and Belville.

To see for yourself how Prop. 19 changes medical marijuana patients’ and collectives’ rights, look at the language of Prop. 19 and the official ballot summary. (The ballot summary is at http://ballotpedia.org/wiki/index.php/Ballot_titles,_summaries_and_fiscal_statements_for_California_2010_ballot_propositions#Proposition_19.) First, note that the official ballot summary does not mention medical marijuana (MM), or MM patients and collectives, at all. Does that mean Prop. 19 is not intended to affect laws that relate to medical marijuana? No. Does it mean Prop. 19 IS intended to affect MM or patients? No. It’s just neutral. So, now let’s look at the text of Prop. 19.

Section 1, the name, is pretty straightforward. “This Act shall be known as the “Regulate, Control and Tax Cannabis Act of 2010.” Notice it does not distinguish between cannabis used recreationally or medicinally. So, based on the name, it MIGHT affect patients by regulating, controlling and taxing marijuana used by patients. (By the way, aren’t the pro-Prop. 19 people referring to this as the “legalize, tax and regulate” proposition? I think the actual text doesn’t say that, because, in reality, cannabis is ALREADY legal in California as a medicine. So it wouldn’t have been truthful or accurate to claim, in the official ballot proposition, that Prop. 19 is going to legalize marijuana . . . . .)

Section 2, A., “Findings,” doesn’t mention MM or MM patients at all. It doesn’t say anything about the fact that marijuana is actually a very useful medicine, which people also use as a recreational drug.

Section 2, B., the “Purposes” section, at paragraph 1, states that one of the Proposition’s purposes is to “reform cannabis laws in a way that will benefit our state.” The law that relates to MM and MM patients is the Compassionate Use Act (CUA), H & S Code section 11362.5. Is section 11362.5 a “cannabis law”? Of course it is. So paragraph 1 indicates that one purpose of Prop. 19 is to reform cannabis laws – which include 11362.5. So a court would say, well, here’s some evidence that Prop. 19 might be intended to affect the Compassionate Use Act -- and thereby affect medical marijuana patients. But how? The court would have to keep reading the text to see.

Section 2, B, “Purposes” at paragraph 3, states that another intent is to create a legal regulatory framework to give California more control over, among other things, cultivation and distribution of cannabis. MM patients currently have a right to cultivate and distribute under the CUA. Because paragraph 3’s language applies to all cultivation and distribution without any exception, it seems it is intended to apply to cultivation and distribution of all cannabis, including by MM patients, and to cultivation and distribution by everyone, including patient collectives. As noted earlier, Prop. 19 makes no distinction between recreational and medicinal use.

Paragraph 6 of “Purposes” then specifically refers to patients and cannabis for medical purposes – so this makes it clear the Proposition is intended to affect MM and patients. How? Only to make access safer and easier, it says -- but not cheaper. I guess access will be safer and easier if you can buy from Big Weed, Inc. instead of growing it yourself, or getting it from a collective. But it will be more expensive for patients who have been allowed to grow as much as they need, because instead of being allowed to grow quantities large enough for each person’s medical problems, and/or to share collectively, Prop. 19 severely limits everyone’s rights to cultivate and distribute.

Paragraph 7 says that if cities ban the sale of cannabis, their citizens “still have the right to possess and consume small amounts, except as permitted under Health and Safety Sections 11362.5 and 11362.7 through 11362.9.” This language could be interpreted to mean that, under 11362.5, MM patients continue to have the right to possess and consume larger quantities than Proposition 19’s ounce limit. But notice that Paragraph 7 specifically leaves out the right to cultivate. Why? This is a very meaningful omission of an existing right held by MM patients. Under Prop. 19, everyone becomes a mere consumer, a captive market to be exploited by a few businesses that get the permits to cultivate and distribute.

Under current law, H & S11362.5, subdivision (d), specifically exempts MM patients from H & S 11358 which makes cultivation illegal. Under the People v. Kelly case, MM patients have no numeric cap on what they can grow, just a requirement that it be related to a medical issue. Will the right to cultivate amounts related to medical issues be changed under Prop. 19? Yes. Here’s why.

Look at the text of Prop. 19, Section 2 (B), paragraph 14. It says that one purpose of Prop. 19 is to “Permit the cultivation of small amounts of cannabis for personal consumption.” We already know the “small amounts” are what can be grown in a 25 square foot garden (that’s 5 by 5 feet) – and that however many people live on a property will have to share that small space. So that is a really small amount.

Notice that section 14 says nothing about allowing the cultivation of larger amounts for medical use.



Don’t give up reading yet -- we’re getting to the smoking gun evidence that Prop. 19 has ALWAYS been INTENDED to affect medical marijuana patients and collectives, and was intentionally worded in a way to allow the pro-Prop. 19 people to make claims, OUTSIDE THE TEXT OF THE CONTROLLING LEGAL DOCUMENT, WHERE SUCH CLAIMS CAN’T BE USED TO INTERPRET THE PROPOSITION, that it doesn’t affect medical marijuana patients.



In Section 2 (C), “Intent,” paragraph 1 lists all the existing laws that Prop. 19 is intended to affect, and paragraph 2 lists all the laws it is NOT intended to affect. Here’s the important point:

Neither paragraph 1 nor paragraph 2 mention the Compassionate Use Act (CUA), which is found in H & S Code section 11362.5. If the Prop. 19 people really did not intend to affect patients and collectives, they would have included section 11362.5 in paragraph 2. They didn’t.

Now, since the Pro-Prop. 19 people clearly need the support of MM patients, they obviously did not want to include the CUA and H & S section 11362.5 in paragraph 1 and admit that Prop. 19 will affect patients. So that’s why Prop. 19 is silent about 11362.5, the CUA. The pro-Prop. 19 people are counting on the average voter not knowing anything about statutory interpretation rules. Under those rules, if Prop. 19 had specifically stated in Section 2, “Intent,” that it was NOT intended to affect H & S 11362.5, then the courts would interpret it as not affecting 11362.5. But because the intent section is silent, the courts will look at the language of the proposition to figure out the intent. And as noted above, the Purposes section at paragraphs 6 and 7, already provides evidence that the Proposition is intended to affect MM and MM patients.

Why would the Prop. 19 people set things up like this? This is no accident; a lot of attorney work and money went into drafting this thing to accomplish the desired results – results presumably desired by Richard Lee and friends. Why would they want to be sure that patients’ current rights to grow and distribute are SEVERLY limited, while running around telling efveryone they are not affected?

Well, in addition to being potential voting support for Prop. 15, MM patients also reflect a LARGE and VALUABLE potential market share for the “commercial cannabis industry” this proposition is intended to create. It is going to be contrary to the commercial interests of whoever wants to create a “commercial cannabis industry” to let such a large group of potential cannabis consumers continue to cultivate and share with each other, via the collective system, cannabis – instead of being FORCED TO BUY IT FROM THE “COMMERCIAL CANNABIS INDUSTRY.”

Prop. 19 is clearly aimed at reducing competition by restricting who can cultivate and distribute.



Prop. 19, if passed, will be interpreted as affecting patients and collectives because the Prop. 19 folks intentionally chose not to specify that it was NOT intended to affect patients in Section 2, “Intent.”

So why are the pro-Prop.19 lying about what it will do? Something sneaky’s going on.
 
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