Question!!...nitric acid could be PH DOWN?????right??

nomofatum

nomofatum

Well-Known Member
Atomizer said:
Try making a concentrated liquid solution using gypsum as the calcium source.
@ nomofatum
Nute manufacturers use calcium nitrate as the calcium source in just about everything.check the label ;)
Calmag contains calcium nitrate and magnesium nitrate for good reason. Your argument says calcium sulfate/mag sulfate would be as good?
Mix a concentrated solution of calcium nitrate and magnesium sulfate (epsom) together and see if you can get the resulting calcium sulfate (cream cheese) to dissolve in water.
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2 of the 3 nutes I'm running right now have both calcium sulfate and calcium nitrate in them. The 1 that only has calcium nitrate is the one under-performing, not that it's due to calcium source. Jacks Hydro and Maxigro are the two with both, Dyna-Gro Foliage is the one with only calcium nitrate. Pure calcium sulfate will dissolve well and to a clear result as long as the water doesn't get too hot, and we don't want that anyway. Buying gypsom and trying to mix it in is not even close to the same thing.
 
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Atomizer

Well-Known Member
The solubility of Anhydrous calcium sulfate is 0.21g/L at 20C, 1L of solution will give you around 50ppm of Ca. For comparison a 5ml spoon of calmag plus in a gallon of water provides 42ppm of Ca.
The CS Dihydrate solubility is slightly higher at 0.24g/L at 20C, but 20% of the chemical weight is just water.
Calcium nitrate solubility is around 1200g/L, so you can get around 200,000 ppm of Ca into the 1L bottle compared to just 50ppm using calcium sulfate.

If you mix your own nutes from scratch, you can tailor the profile to what you want. Altering a commercial nute to make it conform is never going to end up perfect cos you can only add stuff, not take it out.
 
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churchhaze

Well-Known Member
calcium sulfate doesn't dissolve nearly as well as calcium nitrate, which is exactly why atomizer is right in saying that nitric acid does a better job at making calcium available. Raising sulfate or phosphate levels too high in a hydroponic solution runs the risk of calcium phosphate or calcium sulfate precipitates.

It's straight up counter-intuitive to use calcium sulfate or calcium phosphate in dwc, as it's exactly what you're trying to avoid ending up as precipitants.

Atomizer clearly knows his shit.
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
az2000 said:
I don't know why concentration entered the conversation. I just want to be clear: if someone's treating a calcium def, gypsum (calcium sulfate) wouldn't be "much use?"

There was another thread recently where the consensus seemed to be that it would be useful.

(FWIW: I use eggshell dissolved in vinegar, and then dehydrated into a powder which readily goes into solution again. I don't have a reason to defend gypsum. I just want to know if it shouldn't be recommended to those who don't have a month to dissolve eggshells and dehydrate.).
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Use gypsum if you're in soil.

DON'T use it in hydroponics, as gypsum is 98% water INsoluble, meaning it won't dissolve worth a damn.
 
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mainliner

Well-Known Member
airswipe said:
Question!!...nitric acid could be PH DOWN?????right??
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any acid , they just differ in strength and breakdown at different speeds ... You can use lemon juice, its organic but it breaks down fast and you'll have to keep checking the ph.

all are temporary solutions until you get the good stuff!!
 
nomofatum

nomofatum

Well-Known Member
I will take my extra sulfur and let you guys have the extra potassium or nitrogen. I have a harder time getting sulfur up than I do with N, P, K, or CA and it's just as important to the production of THC/resin. The bottom of my buckets are clean, BTW, no precipitates. Though I'm surprised since the DynaGro had precipitate in the bottle.
 
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churchhaze

Well-Known Member
nomofatum said:
I will take my extra sulfur and let you guys have the extra potassium or nitrogen. I have a harder time getting sulfur up than I do with N, P, K, or CA and it's just as important to the production of THC/resin. The bottom of my buckets are clean, BTW, no precipitates. Though I'm surprised since the DynaGro was had p
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Who said anything about potassium? Potassium hydroxide is a strong base! Potassium sulfate IS very soluble, and thus sulfuric acid will do a good job at keeping potassium in the solution. It's CALCIUM that's the issue.

Also, you don't need more than 40-50ppm of S... The ONLY reason you'd ever need to add more is as a freedom variable, to get more magnesium, iron, zinc, or other metal in the form of a sulfate salt. (Magnesium sulfate, iron sulfate, zinc sulfate)
 
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nomofatum

nomofatum

Well-Known Member
churchhaze said:
Who said anything about potassium? Also, what potassium acid is there? Potassium hydroxide is a strong base! Potassium sulfate IS very soluble, and thus sulfuric acid will do a good job at keeping potassium in the solution. It's CALCIUM that's the issue.

Also, you don't need more than 40-50ppm of S... The ONLY reason you'd ever need to add more is as a freedom variable, to get more magnesium, iron, zinc, or other metal in the form of a sulfate salt. (Magnesium sulfate, iron sulfate, zinc sulfate)
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Every once in a while I do that, mix up my P and K, or P and P, lol. My mistake.

Phosphorus, not potassium.

Higher sulfur levels results in greater tric production. Give it a try on a plant when you get a chance.
 
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churchhaze

Well-Known Member
I've tried a lot :P

Higher levels of sulfur is one thing I've actually been trying... but that doesn't mean S levels of over 100ppm.

Basically, when it comes down to DWC and pure hydro, the more you learn about it, the more you realize that calcium nitrate the key.
 
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churchhaze

Well-Known Member
@nomofatum

This might sound like a totally irrelevant question, but what do you think would happen if our stomach acid was sulfuric instead of hydrochloric?

Well.. calcium chloride is highly soluble... so when you eat calcium phosphate, calcium sulfate, or calcium carbonate, your stomach acid substitutes the chloride ion in, making the calcium soluble. Without that, we would not be able to take up calcium.

What would happen if you tried to eat calcium sulfate, but your stomach acid was already sulfuric acid? how would you make the calcium soluble to get into your tissues? You'd end up with calcium sulfate again!! That was pointless!!

Nitric acid is the plants analogous to stomach acid, and calcium nitrate is what plants take, calcium chloride is what animals take.
 
nomofatum

nomofatum

Well-Known Member
Atomizer said:
The solubility of Anhydrous calcium sulfate is 0.21g/L at 20C, 1L of solution will give you around 50ppm of Ca. For comparison a 5ml spoon of calmag plus in a gallon of water provides 42ppm of Ca.
The CS Dihydrate solubility is slightly higher at 0.24g/L at 20C, but 20% of the chemical weight is just water.
Calcium nitrate solubility is around 1200g/L, so you can get around 200,000 ppm of Ca into the 1L bottle compared to just 50ppm using calcium sulfate.

If you mix your own nutes from scratch, you can tailor the profile to what you want. Altering a commercial nute to make it conform is never going to end up perfect cos you can only add stuff, not take it out.
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Oh, you are looking at liquid nutes. I don't like liquid nutes, I try to go with dry nutes, they last longer and are a better deal for the price, also easier to deal with than the liquids.

I have no desire to dissolve more than is needed in my res. Not trying to make a bottle with 200,000 PPM.

Only liquids I use are PH up/down, and occational test nutes that are only available in liquid form.
 
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az2000

Well-Known Member
ttystikk said:
Use gypsum if you're in soil.

DON'T use it in hydroponics, as gypsum is 98% water INsoluble, meaning it won't dissolve worth a damn.
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Thanks. I didn't realize we were talking about hydro when @Atomizer said calcium sulfate wasn't much use.

I have dissolved some gypsum in water. The ppm seemed to be at a level suitable for supplementing calcium (assuming the calcium is in a form it's accessible.). Just wanted to make sure it's ok to recommend to soil growers to treat ca def. I like dissolved eggshell, but that only works for someone who plans ahead.
 
nomofatum

nomofatum

Well-Known Member
az2000 said:
Thanks. I didn't realize we were talking about hydro when @Atomizer said calcium sulfate wasn't much use.

I have dissolved some gypsum in water. The ppm seemed to be at a level suitable for supplementing calcium (assuming the calcium is in a form it's accessible.). Just wanted to make sure it's ok to recommend to soil growers to treat ca def. I like dissolved eggshell, but that only works for someone who plans ahead.
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Tell them to put diatomaceous earth on the top of the soil. Good Ca supplementation for soil and good bug killer/preventer.
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
nomofatum said:
Oh, you are looking at liquid nutes. I don't like liquid nutes, I try to go with dry nutes, they last longer and are a better deal for the price, also easier to deal with than the liquids.

I have no desire to dissolve more than is needed in my res. Not trying to make a bottle with 200,000 PPM.

Only liquids I use are PH up/down, and occational test nutes that are only available in liquid form.
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What do you think they make liquid nutes WITH??
 
nomofatum

nomofatum

Well-Known Member
ttystikk said:
What do you think they make liquid nutes WITH??
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Water + powder, but like atomizer pointed out, too low of solubility with calcium sulfate to be in a concentrated liquid nute. Makes sense since calcium sulfate is in all of the powder nutes I have and none of the liquid nutes.
It's solubility is fine for your res, just not good enough for a bottle of concentrated liquid.

Also, once water is added it's shelf life drops quickly.
 
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churchhaze

Well-Known Member
It's actually a lot easier to make stock solutions with dry salts first. A 50mL syringe is so much faster than a 0.1g scale, and how do you measure micros? A sub milligram scale? For micros, a milligram scale is hardly precise enough to make the stock solutions let alone the final nutrient solution.

If you put 500g of calcium nitrate in a 1L bottle, then fill the rest with water, you have 0.5g/mL mass concentration stock solution of calcium nitrate. That means if you want to add 10g of calcium nitrate, you'd just add 5mL of stock solution.

That's getting out of the scope of the newbie section though.

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