Rand paul wins

I paid about 22% of my income last year (income was about 28k) after all refunds are counted. That includes money paid into SS and Medicare, of which I will likely never see a dime. I feel that was about right.

For someone like yourself, I would advocate no taxes whatsoever. If you are around poverty, there isn't much to tax, is there? Why not lump it onto the person whose business takes greater advantage of the infrastructure that our taxes pay for?

This year, despite being unemployed most of the time, I have been electing to pay taxes when I do get to work, although it doesn't look like I will crack 5 figures and will thus have no liability. I do it anyway for selfish reasons (greater refund at the end of the year) and altruistic ones (I actually enjoy paying my fair share of taxes). I am taking unemployment when funds run too low, I feel like shit about it. But then I remind myself that the money comes from my former employer, who fired me with no notice or reason, and was able to deny my unemployment claim but chose not to. I worked my ass off for them for years and got canned for no reason, so I don't feel too bad about taking their payroll taxes.

Why should you have to pinch off from what little you make when a burden which is heavy to you can be absorbed by someone else so easily? There are those that will say I am a commie or a socialist, but that is not what I am advocating. I am not advocating that we all eat from the same doughnut, simply a progressive tax system.

In any case, it just surprised me you advocated a flat tax. Glenn Beck would love you

dukeofbaja said:

I paid about 22% of my income last year (income was about 28k) after all refunds are counted. That includes money paid into SS and Medicare, of which I will likely never see a dime. I feel that was about right.

For someone like yourself, I would advocate no taxes whatsoever. If you are around poverty, there isn't much to tax, is there? Why not lump it onto the person whose business takes greater advantage of the infrastructure that our taxes pay for?

This year, despite being unemployed most of the time, I have been electing to pay taxes when I do get to work, although it doesn't look like I will crack 5 figures and will thus have no liability. I do it anyway for selfish reasons (greater refund at the end of the year) and altruistic ones (I actually enjoy paying my fair share of taxes).

Why should you have to pinch off from what little you make when a burden which is heavy to you can be absorbed by someone else so easily? There are those that will say I am a commie or a socialist, but that is not what I am advocating. I am not advocating that we all eat from the same doughnut, simply a progressive tax system.

In any case, it just surprised me you advocated a flat tax. Glenn Beck would love you

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You keep trying to lump me in with Glenn Beck. I detest Beck so Just Cut it out. The difference between you and I is that I do not feel it is right to PASS off my tax on to someone else beacuse they can SO EASILY ABSORB IT as you say.
What right do I have to take away from someone elses coffers simply because they are better of than I, some snse of entitlement. I am entitled to nothing! Herein lies the problem in my opinion, this sense of entitlement that has permeated our culture. Do I not have my children in Public schools, do I not use the roadways, do I not benefit from Police and fire and other public services. Yes I do. I cannot go into the grocery store and say," Excuse me, I am poor, please give me my groceries for free" when The grocery chain is well off and can surely absorb the fee.
Why then does that entitle me to do the same with taxes.

You'll have to excuse me while I remind you that I have NO sense entitlement. It seems like every person nowadays has to use that word, or another....redistribution, entitlement, socialist....mind you, that is not directed at you entirely. But you must have glanced over where I said:

lump it onto the person whose business takes greater advantage of the infrastructure that our taxes pay for

Our taxes pay for things, like roads (which businesses depend on to ship their goods), police officers (who make sure that thieves do no steal possesions of the business), schools (which educate/indoctrinate the kiddies into being able to supply the business with labor), and others. You mentioned them, so I assume you are familiar with them.

Sure, you send your kid to school and thus like me, want to pay your taxes. You drive on roads and thus like me, want to pay your taxes. You've even vacationed at a state or national park and thus like me, want to pay your taxes.

So you and I may use those things, but businesses absolutely depend on them. They could not exist without them. They take greater advantage of these things. They owe more to the existence of these commodities than you or I. You can call that entitlement or redistribution or socialism if you want, I call it a bigger bill for more services rendered.

Put into those terms I can accept your argument. A pay as you go type of deal in reference to the businesses. I still don't think that individuals shoudl pay more based upon thier level of incoome.simply because they can absorb it easier. I can readily accept your version of businesses use the roads more or utilize/benefit to a greater extent than the individual and should pony up more in terms of taxes.

I still stand by the flat tax as it applies to individuals.

Holy fuck...

I agree with you on this one..

What!! Did i just hear hell freeze over.

Mindmelted said:

Holy fuck...

I agree with you on this one..

What did i just hear hell freeze over.

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It probably happens a lot more than we notice, I agree with him as well and so Me thinks a bong rip is in order.

kendothegreenwizard said:

Put into those terms I can accept your argument. A pay as you go type of deal in reference to the businesses. I still don't think that individuals shoudl pay more based upon thier level of incoome.simply because they can absorb it easier. I can readily accept your version of businesses use the roads more or utilize/benefit to a greater extent than the individual and should pony up more in terms of taxes.

I still stand by the flat tax as it applies to individuals.

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So, an individual who utilized/benefited from a public university to a greater extent than the person who did not (and thus likely earns a bit more) should not be taxed a bit more?

Should an individual working and struggling to escape the poverty cycle should be subject to the same exact tax rates/levels as an individual at the top of all earners? I would imagine that to be one of those top earners, you'd likely be employed somewhere that is taking greater advantage of the public infrastructure. Maybe investing in the stock market, to which tax dollars must be allocated in the name of regulation, or running a company that sends trucks all over the country transporting goods on public roads, or running a huge farming business in California which is supplied with water from the California Aqueduct. Whereas, if you are one of those super low wage earners, you might be doing some type of menial labor, perhaps building the road or bridge, or constructing the new house, or working on that farm. Sweeping generalizations they may be, I am just not articulate or well read enough to express what I have rpeviously learned on the subject.

I also just had a huge bowl of Black Domina, so that doesn't help either.

dukeofbaja said:

Our taxes pay for things, like roads (which businesses depend on to ship their goods), police officers (who make sure that thieves do no steal possesions of the business), schools (which educate/indoctrinate the kiddies into being able to supply the business with labor), and others. You mentioned them, so I assume you are familiar with them.

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Roads = Gas Tax
Police = State Tax
Schools = Property Tax

Sorry just felt like pointing out that none of your federal income tax is paying for anything you beleive it is....

Flax tax is stupid and unfair. I would like to see a high tier progressive tax (starting at 800k and up) mixed with a consumption tax. I would like SS partially privatized as our elected leaders have already proved their not capable of managing it, let me manage my own money. At the very least make the damn thing untouchable. Close down our bases in Europe and bring them to our southern boarders. Require welfare recipients to give back to the community in the form of volunteering......and so on.

dukeofbaja said:

So, an individual who utilized/benefited from a public university to a greater extent than the person who did not (and thus likely earns a bit more) should not be taxed a bit more?

Should an individual working and struggling to escape the poverty cycle should be subject to the same exact tax rates/levels as an individual at the top of all earners? I would imagine that to be one of those top earners, you'd likely be employed somewhere that is taking greater advantage of the public infrastructure. Maybe investing in the stock market, to which tax dollars must be allocated in the name of regulation, or running a company that sends trucks all over the country transporting goods on public roads, or running a huge farming business in California which is supplied with water from the California Aqueduct. Whereas, if you are one of those super low wage earners, you might be doing some type of menial labor, perhaps building the road or bridge, or constructing the new house, or working on that farm. Sweeping generalizations they may be, I am just not articulate or well read enough to express what I have rpeviously learned on the subject.

I also just had a huge bowl of Black Domina, so that doesn't help either.

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Cheers on the Black Domina.
The public University costs the student a great deal of money and therefore hs already been payed for. Why should they be double taxed for their education. . If a person who is poor pays as your example showed pays a flat 10% at $1,500 a year in taxes and yet enjoys the same benefits of Road, police, fire, etc as the rich person who pays the same flat 10% at $150,000 then is the gap not more than closed. The person who pays the substantially greater taxation sum yet reaps the same representation as the person who pays the smaller sum in realtion to Road, fire, police is in fact paying to a greater extent as you maintain they should.

Banditt said:

Roads = Gas Tax
Police = State Tax
Schools = Property Tax

Sorry just felt like pointing out that none of your federal income tax is paying for anything you beleive it is....

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No, no need to apologize. Very valid points. I was making lots of sweeping generalizations and whatnot. There are better arguments out there for a progressive tax.

Are you Canadian? Only folks I know who apologize for being right are Canadians! lol

fitch303 said:

Flax tax is stupid and unfair. I would like to see a high tier progressive tax (starting at 800k and up) mixed with a consumption tax. I would like SS partially privatized as our elected leaders have already proved their not capable of managing it, let me manage my own money. At the very least make the damn thing untouchable. Close down our bases in Europe and bring them to our southern boarders. Require welfare recipients to give back to the community in the form of volunteering......and so on.

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As much as we squabble over other stuff, I can't disagree with a thing you say here. All great ideas.

Banditt said:

Roads = Gas Tax
Police = State Tax
Schools = Property Tax

Sorry just felt like pointing out that none of your federal income tax is paying for anything you beleive it is....

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Roads are both state and federal and are not entirely paid by Gas taxes. They are also paid by state and federal taxes.
Schools are also partially paid by federal monies.

dukeofbaja said:

No, no need to apologize. Very valid points. I was making lots of sweeping generalizations and whatnot. There are better arguments out there for a progressive tax.

Are you Canadian? Only folks I know who apologize for being right are Canadians! lol

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haha no I'm not, I'm from the US. Funny observation though. lol

medicineman said:

Paul is a critic of the Federal Reserve,[55] the USA PATRIOT Act,[23] the federal government's bailout of Wall Street, and the erosion of civil liberties. He supports significantly smaller government and balanced budgets, and opposes the Department of Education, the war in Iraq,[22] and the federal income tax.[24] He encourages legislators to pledge not to raise taxes,[15] and fought the plan to raise hotel taxes in Kentucky in 2000.[17][20] He is also supportive of term limits for politicians, a balanced budget amendment, and establishing the Read the Bills Act.[26]
I can agree with the above actions, with the exception of the DOE eradication.

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He opposes the DOE because it is an unecessary middle man.
All it does is take money and redistribute to the states, which then redistributes it locally.
Why? Why the need to add so many unecessary layers of government? Why not completely eliminate federal income tax burdens, and then individual states can set their tax structures , as well the level of services, themselves. That way if you dont like your state you can move to another one that fits your lifestyle better.
Right now I pay way more federal tax than state tax. It should be the opposite.
This is the way our country is supposed to be. A REPUBLIC of indivdual states.


Return the majority of governing powers to the states. The way it is supposed to be.

fitch303 said:

Flax tax is stupid and unfair. I would like to see a high tier progressive tax (starting at 800k and up) mixed with a consumption tax. I would like SS partially privatized as our elected leaders have already proved their not capable of managing it, let me manage my own money. At the very least make the damn thing untouchable. Close down our bases in Europe and bring them to our southern boarders. Require welfare recipients to give back to the community in the form of volunteering......and so on.

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I agree with each of your points except in regards to flat tax. although I mentioned earlier that I was in favor of a comsumption/sales tax instead of a flat tax. I think that SS should be Untouchable but balk at individual investment options, seems risky at best. I am all for closing down bases all over the world and bringing our boys home to guard our southern border.
I have long been a proponent of welfare to work programs. I consider welfare for life to be a horrible manifestation and one that needs to end. Welfare should be a temporary stopgap measure. There are always exceptions such as in the case of the infirmed or handicapped but I truly believe that if a person can physically work they should do so.

kendothegreenwizard said:

Cheers on the Black Domina.
The public University costs the student a great deal of money and therefore hs already been payed for. Why should they be double taxed for their education. . If a person who is poor pays as your example showed pays a flat 10% at $1,500 a year in taxes and yet enjoys the same benefits of Road, police, fire, etc as the rich person who pays the same flat 10% at $150,000 then is the gap not more than closed. The person who pays the substantially greater taxation sum yet reaps the same representation as the person who pays the smaller sum in realtion to Road, fire, police is in fact paying to a greater extent as you maintain they should.

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Let me get a better line of argument going. I saw the weakness of what I was typing even as I typed it.

Also, upon another bowl and some reflection, I wanted to compliment you. I wish more folks like you existed. As much as I disagree with this and that of what you say, when it comes to REAL LIFE, you get it. You ARE the change you want to see, from what I can decipher from your posts. It reminds me of how my father in law (who has mercifully employed me a few times) operates. He owns apartments all across the SW and I have been lucky to get some work there. He knows what it should cost to operate the apartment complex for the year, and if the maintenance/leasing teams come in under budget, he gives it right back to them as an end of the year bonus. Every time we find a piece of aluminum duct tape that we can re-use or a fix we can make safely with knowledge instead of replacement parts, we simply say 'bonus'. I'm sure if you ran a business with employees, it would work the same way, and I could only wish that every employer would be the same. Sadly, corporatization leads to diffusion of responsibility and good employees get treated in some pretty shitty ways nowadays, all in the name of profits. End rant

dukeofbaja said:

Let me get a better line of argument going. I saw the weakness of what I was typing even as I typed it.

Also, upon another bowl and some reflection, I wanted to compliment you. I wish more folks like you existed. As much as I disagree with this and that of what you say, when it comes to REAL LIFE, you get it. You ARE the change you want to see, from what I can decipher from your posts. It reminds me of how my father in law (who has mercifully employed me a few times) operates. He owns apartments all across the SW and I have been lucky to get some work there. He knows what it should cost to operate the apartment complex for the year, and if the maintenance/leasing teams come in under budget, he gives it right back to them as an end of the year bonus. Every time we find a piece of aluminum duct tape that we can re-use or a fix we can make safely with knowledge instead of replacement parts, we simply say 'bonus'. I'm sure if you ran a business with employees, it would work the same way, and I could only wish that every employer would be the same. Sadly, corporatization leads to diffusion of responsibility and good employees get treated in some pretty shitty ways nowadays, all in the name of profits. End rant

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Thank you very much, those words mean a great deal to me. Even as we sparred ferociously in other threads I knew that we had a great deal in common. I expect we will spar in the future but look forward to again finding common ground and a better understanding of each others position.

dukeofbaja said:

You've even vacationed at a state or national park and thus like me, want to pay your taxes.

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Why would I pay to stay somewhere when I am the owner? The government doesn't "OWN" these things you talk about, You and I own them.

Im all for zero income tax, go back to the days before 1913.

Is Ron running?