Rationalists - What Was Your Last Big False Belief You Reluctantly Gave Up?

Heisenberg

Heisenberg

Well-Known Member
I appreciate you taking the time to make yourself more clear. I've read those explanations. Although there is nothing implausible about the western explanation, it still is after the fact speculation that assumes a measurable effect is happening to begin with, which has never been demonstrated despite science best efforts. As for the Chinese explanation... there is no such thing as energy flowing through the body, in fact that is a misuse of the word energy entirely. So basically they are using something that doesn't exist to explain something that doesn't happen.

Diet, posture, general health are NOT acupuncture. That in fact counts as special pleading. I do believe you when you say a practitioner would take a more holistic approach, but that is beyond the scope of evidence for acupuncture. If a drug company made a pill that could not be demonstrated to work better than a placebo, even if placebo and the pill both work better than nothing, would you take it? Should acupuncture not be held to the same standards of evidence as other medical treatments?

Examples of controls are using sham needles, particularly the kind that telescopes when 'inserted' which prevents both the patient and acupuncturist from knowing if it is indeed a sham needle. In addition it doesn't matter where the needles are inserted, or how experienced the practitioner is. Best way to explain these facts is, the placebo effect triggered by what the patient perceives as a therapeutic experience.

Acupuncture is advertised as effective for everything from hay fever to erectile dysfunction. Studies have shown no effect except for a tiny number of ailments, such as nausea. When better studies were designed to look at those aliments, the placebo effect was revealed. The only reason studies are still being done on not only back pain but a variety of conditions is because of cultural demand, not scientific demand.

Lots of people swear it has worked for them. That's great, and the anecdotal information is enough to justify studies, however anecdotal information can never be used to draw conclusions.
 
mindphuk

mindphuk

Well-Known Member
Heisenberg said:
I appreciate you taking the time to make yourself more clear. I've read those explanations. Although there is nothing implausible about the western explanation, it still is after the fact speculation that assumes a measurable effect is happening to begin with, which has never been demonstrated despite science best efforts. As for the Chinese explanation... there is no such thing as energy flowing through the body, in fact that is a misuse of the word energy entirely. So basically they are using something that doesn't exist to explain something that doesn't happen.

Diet, posture, general health are NOT acupuncture. That in fact counts as special pleading. I do believe you when you say a practitioner would take a more holistic approach, but that is beyond the scope of evidence for acupuncture. If a drug company made a pill that could not be demonstrated to work better than a placebo, even if placebo and the pill both work better than nothing, would you take it? Should acupuncture not be held to the same standards of evidence as other medical treatments?

Examples of controls are using sham needles, particularly the kind that telescopes when 'inserted' which prevents both the patient and acupuncturist from knowing if it is indeed a sham needle. In addition it doesn't matter where the needles are inserted, or how experienced the practitioner is. Best way to explain these facts is, the placebo effect triggered by what the patient perceives as a therapeutic experience.

Acupuncture is advertised as effective for everything from hay fever to erectile dysfunction. Studies have shown no effect except for a tiny number of ailments, such as nausea. When better studies were designed to look at those aliments, the placebo effect was revealed. The only reason studies are still being done on not only back pain but a variety of conditions is because of cultural demand, not scientific demand.

Lots of people swear it has worked for them. That's great, and the anecdotal information is enough to justify studies, however anecdotal information can never be used to draw conclusions.
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That reminds me of this http://www.theonion.com/articles/fda-approves-sale-of-prescription-placebo,1606/
 
Heisenberg

Heisenberg

Well-Known Member
Retris said:
Mine too! People say they would get too depressed about the meaningless of life. I say fuck it, let's live how we want, while we can!
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Life does not have some higher meaning that you are obligated to fulfill, but that does not mean you can't find meaning in life. It may be true that it really doesn't matter if you are here or not, but that is not equivalent to saying you don't matter.
 
Brazko

Brazko

Well-Known Member
What you're saying isn't wrong, it's just not what acupuncture is and for a lack of understanding, it is being held to a false premise. Saying it's speculation because science cannot track the physiological effects, and only measure the repeated results doesn't make acupuncture effectiveness a speculation. It makes the mode of how it happens a speculation. The effectiveness and results are documented scientific fact.

Also, comparing Acupuncture to a pill in that manner is illogical. I read that arguement made in the study, it didn't make sense then as well. Even what you have repeated to me about diet, excerise, etc.. assures me that you still don't grasp the contextual application of acupuncture aka *(acupressure / trigger point / shiatsu / reflexology / neural stimulation). Lets say you break a leg, go through surgery, along with being placed on medication and later sent through rehab. Tell me which of these acts are responsible for the healing of your leg? Or do they need special pleading as well? Let's not forget your body's own natural healing process as well.

Everything is integrated and complimentary to the next. If you have to compare it to a pill, liken it to a medication that improves the process, however, the thing to acknowledge though is that it's not medication but a method of facilitation. The needles as you have pointed out are the lesser of the equation to understanding the process. Try to follow .

Its reasonable not wanting to believe in some mythical tale of chi, but when you say there is no such thing as energy flowing through the body and fact that it's a misuse of the word entirely, only ensures me that you lack understanding the definition of the word energy or never had an EKG. In every scientific sense of the word, the body is a form of energy. Even a rock possesses a form of energy :-?

This has now became a topic of redundancy. Your transformational hardwiring to become a rationalist doesn't permit your brain to function on all or, certain levels. It's a chemical process that takes time, something I can't do in an attempted barrage of posts trying to explain something that has been cryptic and mystified for thousands of years.

You've seen the data of how it doesn't work, it's not real, it doesn't exist. Simply a false belief. If it's an imaginary cultural appeasement and accepted to practice, nobody's forcing science to study it. Remember it predates the scientific method, something it cannot hold up to. I guess acupuncture will continue to stand on it's own merits for another few thousand years.


:joint:

* all work under same principles

Heisenberg said:
I appreciate you taking the time to make yourself more clear. I've read those explanations. Although there is nothing implausible about the western explanation, it still is after the fact speculation that assumes a measurable effect is happening to begin with, which has never been demonstrated despite science best efforts. As for the Chinese explanation... there is no such thing as energy flowing through the body, in fact that is a misuse of the word energy entirely. So basically they are using something that doesn't exist to explain something that doesn't happen.

Diet, posture, general health are NOT acupuncture. That in fact counts as special pleading. I do believe you when you say a practitioner would take a more holistic approach, but that is beyond the scope of evidence for acupuncture. If a drug company made a pill that could not be demonstrated to work better than a placebo, even if placebo and the pill both work better than nothing, would you take it? Should acupuncture not be held to the same standards of evidence as other medical treatments?

Examples of controls are using sham needles, particularly the kind that telescopes when 'inserted' which prevents both the patient and acupuncturist from knowing if it is indeed a sham needle. In addition it doesn't matter where the needles are inserted, or how experienced the practitioner is. Best way to explain these facts is, the placebo effect triggered by what the patient perceives as a therapeutic experience.

Acupuncture is advertised as effective for everything from hay fever to erectile dysfunction. Studies have shown no effect except for a tiny number of ailments, such as nausea. When better studies were designed to look at those aliments, the placebo effect was revealed. The only reason studies are still being done on not only back pain but a variety of conditions is because of cultural demand, not scientific demand.

Lots of people swear it has worked for them. That's great, and the anecdotal information is enough to justify studies, however anecdotal information can never be used to draw conclusions.
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Heisenberg

Heisenberg

Well-Known Member
Well I agree with so much of what you say, including the redundancy comment. I suppose an element of any conflict is assuming the other side doesn't understand.

I do feel obligated to defend the term energy. I suppose saying 'energy flows through the body' isn't strictly incorrect, it's just unforgivably vague, especially in a scientific context. The body does store energy in fat and uses it with muscles, ect. However energy is a measurement of potential workforce. An object or systems ability to act on mass for an amount of time. That mass can be heart muscle, moved by electrochemical pulse and measured with an EKG. After all, energy = mass x speed of light squared. What in that definition suggests the human body is a form of energy? What form would that be? A rock does have energy, in fact the mass of the rock times the speed of light squared is it's exact potential, but the rock itself is not a form of energy. Acupuncturists and not talking about a chemical or electrical energy in the body, they are talking about 'life energy'. Their definition of energy is scientifically meaningless.

Surgery to repair a broken bone, medication to fight disease and rehabilitation to strengthen muscles all have their own modalities. Their mechanisms can be demonstrated under strict controls therefore they do not require special pleading. An example of special pleading would be
Your transformational hardwiring to become a rationalist doesn't permit your brain to function on all or, certain levels.
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The very fact that I want to understand the truth prevents me from understanding the truth. Subtle criteria introduced after the fact to explain lack of reasoning. Special pleading.

In this case I must bow to Occam's razor and accept the explanation which requires the fewest assumptions, which is a placebo effect. When presented with a well understood, well documented replicable explanation which demonstrates all evidence, it is not necessary to go looking for something more complicated.
 
Brazko

Brazko

Well-Known Member
E=MC2 is how energy is calculated, not defined. Energy is the ability to do work. The body is of potential and kinetic energy as well as the ability to produce thermal energy. Maybe I just don't know what energy is :roll:, but it's more than storing fat to move muscles. But basically you are saying that Mass/Matter is not energy because it's not moving at the speed of light. I don't believe energy will hold you obligated to defending it.

Again though, you understand a process that is happening but cannot connect the dots because the dots where described as circles. So the circles don't exist because only dots were found in their place. This is the mental hurdle I'm talking about you seem to face.

Occam sounds good... toothpick

:blsmoke:


Heisenberg said:
Well I agree with so much of what you say, including the redundancy comment. I suppose an element of any conflict is assuming the other side doesn't understand.

I do feel obligated to defend the term energy. I suppose saying 'energy flows through the body' isn't strictly incorrect, it's just unforgivably vague, especially in a scientific context. The body does store energy in fat and uses it with muscles, ect. However energy is a measurement of potential workforce. An object or systems ability to act on mass for an amount of time. That mass can be heart muscle, moved by electrochemical pulse and measured with an EKG. After all, energy = mass x speed of light squared. What in that definition suggests the human body is a form of energy? What form would that be? A rock does have energy, in fact the mass of the rock times the speed of light squared is it's exact potential, but the rock itself is not a form of energy. Acupuncturists and not talking about a chemical or electrical energy in the body, they are talking about 'life energy'. Their definition of energy is scientifically meaningless.

Surgery to repair a broken bone, medication to fight disease and rehabilitation to strengthen muscles all have their own modalities. Their mechanisms can be demonstrated under strict controls therefore they do not require special pleading. An example of special pleading would be
The very fact that I want to understand the truth prevents me from understanding the truth. Subtle criteria introduced after the fact to explain lack of reasoning. Special pleading.

In this case I must bow to Occam's razor and accept the explanation which requires the fewest assumptions, which is a placebo effect. When presented with a well understood, well documented replicable explanation which demonstrates all evidence, it is not necessary to go looking for something more complicated.
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Heisenberg

Heisenberg

Well-Known Member
Brazko said:
E=MC2 is how energy is calculated, not defined. Energy is the ability to do work. The body is of potential and kinetic energy as well as the ability to produce thermal energy. Maybe I just don't know what energy is :roll:, but it's more than storing fat to move muscles. But basically you are saying that Mass/Matter is not energy because it's not moving at the speed of light. I don't believe energy will hold you obligated to defending it.

Again though, you understand a process that is happening but cannot connect the dots because the dots where described as circles. So the circles don't exist because only dots were found in their place. This is the mental hurdle I'm talking about you seem to face.

Occam sounds good... toothpick

:blsmoke:
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The point was, the type of energy chi refers to has nothing to do with energy as understood in a scientific context. E=MC2 is a sort of generic definition for energy, as well as a way to measure. To more specifically define energy we must first know what form it is. What form of energy is chi? Can chi be measured by e=mc2? The human body has potential kinetic energy same as a rock, and the ability to do work utilizing other forms of energy. Storing fat and burning calories with muscle was an arbitrary example. However you said the scientific definition of energy suggests the human body is a form of energy. And somehow that suggests that acupuncture manipulates this energy. At this point we are outside any meaningful use of the word.

Again the explanation of mechanism is not even relevant at this point, because no effect has ever been demonstrated to explain. The only evidence ever found is anecdotal, the same anecdotal evidence we find for any placebo.

Not only do the circles not exist, but the dots are something we understand very well and can control for. The dots are in fact something we often find when circles are described, and not puzzling at all.

Incidentally, if energy was conscious of how often it is misused in explaining new age practices, ghost hunting research, religious miracles, ect, it might indeed welcome some defense. Although I grant you it would probably prefer someone better able to articulate than I.
 
Brazko

Brazko

Well-Known Member
:roll:, I believe you started a thread about confirmation bias didn't you. I think we are past the concept of chi and should be looking at the studies and results concluded from a western scientific view. Your only confirmation of acupuncture not working is that chi is not real so the application doesn't work, while at the same time denying and overlooking the scientific findings that were made.

Just because the studies you pulled up said it must be placebo because the needles never went in, toothpicks were used, they weren't placed precisely according to some chart all have nothing to do with the principle of acupuncture. They concluded from their opinion it must be placebo effect, as well as without any evidence said that it must work just because the people visited and wanted something to happen. How can you stand by that kind of information? Isn't that called using confirmation biased information, which had no backing to it but their skeptical opinion?

However, if you look at your studies conducted, it shows when needles were actually inserted or, using any kind of simulated stimuli produced results of improvement in 60% of the patients while usual care only around 45-50%. Look at your studies and stop overlooking the information that doesn't confirm your bias. It's all right there in black/white.

These are the findings from your studies;

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19433697?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum
CONCLUSIONS: Although acupuncture was found effective for chronic low back pain, tailoring needling sites to each patient and penetration of the skin appear to be unimportant in eliciting therapeutic benefits. These findings raise questions about acupuncture's purported mechanisms of action. It remains unclear whether acupuncture or our simulated method of acupuncture provide physiologically important stimulation or represent placebo or nonspecific effects.

And this next one wasn't even a study my bad, it was just their opinionated gibberish on the above study. Com'on Man :roll:

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=492
The Opinion
A new study which randomized 638 adults to either standard acupuncture, individualized acupuncture, placebo acupuncture using tooth picks that did not penetrate the skin, and standard therapy found exactly what previous evidence has also suggested – it does not seem to matter where you stick the needles or even if you stick the needles through the skin. The only reasonable scientific conclusion to draw from this is that acupuncture does not work.

Conclusion
Once again we see that the best acupuncture clinical trials show that it does not matter where or if you place the needles. Since these are the two interventions specific to acpuncture, we can conclude (confidently, at this point) that acupuncture does not work and that any perceived benefit from acupucture is due to placebo or nonspecific effects.


Heisenberg said:
The point was, the type of energy chi refers to has nothing to do with energy as understood in a scientific context. E=MC2 is a sort of generic definition for energy, as well as a way to measure. To more specifically define energy we must first know what form it is. What form of energy is chi? Can chi be measured by e=mc2? The human body has potential kinetic energy same as a rock, and the ability to do work utilizing other forms of energy. Storing fat and burning calories with muscle was an arbitrary example. However you said the scientific definition of energy suggests the human body is a form of energy. And somehow that suggests that acupuncture manipulates this energy. At this point we are outside any meaningful use of the word.

Again the explanation of mechanism is not even relevant at this point, because no effect has ever been demonstrated to explain. The only evidence ever found is anecdotal, the same anecdotal evidence we find for any placebo.

Not only do the circles not exist, but the dots are something we understand very well and can control for. The dots are in fact something we often find when circles are described, and not puzzling at all.

Incidentally, if energy was conscious of how often it is misused in explaining new age practices, ghost hunting research, religious miracles, ect, it might indeed welcome some defense. Although I grant you it would probably prefer someone better able to articulate than I.
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Heisenberg

Heisenberg

Well-Known Member
I agree chi is worthy of dismissal. The reason we can trust the scientific method is because it controls for things like confirmation bias. I see where it says acupuncture works, then it explains so does a placebo. Normal treatment + placebo = better than normal treatment. I see where it says the needles don't matter, to which you conclude the needles are not an important factor. I suppose this begs the question, then why use them? What I see is an evolution of tests using previous ones to better design controls, and in the end concluding placebo. Following the evidence is not a bias. Indeed, in a debate, it can be a drawback as science is limited to facts. Pseudoscience is free to bring in outside speculation such as, skeptics brains not being hardwired to understand acupuncture. You also mention reflexology, which itself could be argued for another several pages. But massage, reflexology, ect are NOT acupuncture.

I believe both our posts are now bordering on redundancy. I have presented my interpretation, as you have yours. In the end my original question remains. If acupuncture has a working mechanism, then why does it disappear when we control for all other outside factors? I suppose you seem to be saying that we do not understand it enough to properly identify and control for all the factors, and I suppose there is no good way to argue with that.
 
Heisenberg

Heisenberg

Well-Known Member
suTraGrow said:
Religion :-D
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Religion was the last one you gave up? Have you moved on to the tooth fairy yet? :D Just kidding of course. What I should say is congratulations because religious belief is one many find difficult or even impossible to leave behind.
 
S

suTraGrow

Well-Known Member
Heisenberg said:
Religion was the last one you gave up? Have you moved on to the tooth fairy yet? :D Just kidding of course. What I should say is congratulations because religious belief is one many find difficult or even impossible to leave behind.
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Yes religion was the last one i gave up years ago. Took me a couple year when i was younger to compile all the information for my self and make a decision i made by using my own complete judgment. Not crap i heard from other people and so on.
 
Brazko

Brazko

Well-Known Member
Ok, I'm not going to give you an A/P class and I have explained the process of what takes place and you have posted the results. I will give a couple of simple to understand examples in layman and leave you a link to read the scientific facts.

Example: #1 If you are having muscle spasms, although needling can be applied, simply using your thumb, finger, knuckle, even a foreign object (toothpick) properly placed and applied correctly could relieve the symptoms temporarily. While repeated sessions may even stop it all together. But again, this is not something that acupressure/ puncture will do. It's because there begins a physiological change within that person. And every individual is different, as well as their mindset. Needling not needed.


Example: #2 If you break a leg, you will not be able to touch, or work the muscles of that leg right away because its too tender to manipulate. However, instead of waiting weeks to months before you can begin to rehab that leg with any kind of muscle activity. You could probably use needling within days to stimulate muscle activity preventing rapid atrophy. Needling needed.

And Here's the link so I don't further complicate things.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuron



Heisenberg said:
I agree chi is worthy of dismissal. The reason we can trust the scientific method is because it controls for things like confirmation bias. I see where it says acupuncture works, then it explains so does a placebo. Normal treatment + placebo = better than normal treatment. I see where it says the needles don't matter, to which you conclude the needles are not an important factor. I suppose this begs the question, then why use them? What I see is an evolution of tests using previous ones to better design controls, and in the end concluding placebo. Following the evidence is not a bias. Indeed, in a debate, it can be a drawback as science is limited to facts. Pseudoscience is free to bring in outside speculation such as, skeptics brains not being hardwired to understand acupuncture. You also mention reflexology, which itself could be argued for another several pages. But massage, reflexology, ect are NOT acupuncture.

I believe both our posts are now bordering on redundancy. I have presented my interpretation, as you have yours. In the end my original question remains. If acupuncture has a working mechanism, then why does it disappear when we control for all other outside factors? I suppose you seem to be saying that we do not understand it enough to properly identify and control for all the factors, and I suppose there is no good way to argue with that.
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Justcallmedude

Justcallmedude

Well-Known Member
Never stopped believing for a second, facts are what you know to be true, knowing is simply believing, life is short and sweet, good will always concure evil and fear can exist only in a state of not knowing/believing.
 
Heisenberg

Heisenberg

Well-Known Member
Justcallmedude said:
Never stopped believing for a second, facts are what you know to be true, knowing is simply believing, life is short and sweet, good will always concure evil and fear can exist only in a state of not knowing/believing.
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Wouldn't it be nice if the world actually worked this way? If we could just redefine reality to fit our statements. Unfortunately reality reminas true whether you believe in something or not.
 
B

budsmoker87

New Member
The OP's post about supplements hit me hard


While I do agree and think that supplement products are market-hyped bunk, I also believe the "power" that some say they have is directly attributed to psychological factors...I think they DO work, as placebos.

I think the mind is a verrry powerful organ that really does most of the magic when you consciously take a supplemental pill/powder with the INTENTION of nurturing and revitalizing your body. in other words, I think the "supplement" you're taking is already in your head- but actually physically taking a pill...and honestly believing in the product's powers... provides the catalyst needed for your own brain to act accordingly



we live in a society that doesn't encourage/support/promote this idea, no matter how strong or effective the placebo effect might be....because we value "hard science" and "strong evidence" over more spiritually conscious routes to healing


in western medicine, with "clinical testing" and trials, we actually strictly seek to remove all psychological "intention" of healing from the actual healing encounter

...but if we're not intent on healing our minds and bodies,... our spiritual wellness suffers...and so do we



so all together- i didn't ditch my prior beliefs about how supplements might work....but I now believe it's both INTENTION of health and actual whole foods that make healthy people healthy. I've worked in nursing homes for years in the past- and the healthiest residents always seemed to have one thing in common- each and every day held a strong sense of purpose and meaning for them, even if their schedule only consisted of eating a meal and watching a movie
 
PlantManBee

PlantManBee

Well-Known Member
Padawanbater2 said:
Elaborate on this?
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;) is the key.

i'm actually a mystic who loves science.

i'm also known to play devil's advocate on occasion.

earlier in the thread Hberg said something like "thankfully reason usually wins out." i gave up on that belief long ago lol. humans are ANYTHING but logical. individuals MAY be, but groups of humans rarely act logically. hell, throw in some beer and things turn downright idiotic.

man i'm stoned :)

i guess i should just say that i think science (the scientific method really) is a great tool...and so am i :P
 
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