CrackerJax
New Member
A fiscally conservative govt. is a small govt.
Right VS Left
- Thread starter medicineman
- Start date
jdizzy
Member
So in this Libertarian paradise which of these socialist programs would not you have:
Army
Navy
Marines
Police department
Fire department
Public schools
FDA
DOT/ public roads
Judges/ court houses
Department of Health
FCC
Department of Agriculture
Coast Guard
Department of Treasury
Air Force
Social Security
FDIC deposits
Ambulances/ EMTs
Medicare
IRS
Unemployment Insurance
Public parks
Disability Insurance
FBI
CIA
Homeland security
FAA
TSA
And yes I know Somalis has it own libertarian "Navy"
CrackerJax
New Member
Some gravitate towards freedom loving ideas, and some gravitate towards authoritarian loving ideas. You left plenty off the list. The Federal govt. is far too large and unwieldy. It is most inefficient. Like an overweight boxer, it may leave the corner, but it's not going to win any decisions.
Smaller is better.... period. Smaller proportions. More efficient. Ban unions.... start firing ppl. get some accountability at the individual level back in there. Everyone in the private non union world knows this. It's called life.
Small fed. Strong states. Strong union. More productive, better life, people actually happy.
Smaller is better.... period. Smaller proportions. More efficient. Ban unions.... start firing ppl. get some accountability at the individual level back in there. Everyone in the private non union world knows this. It's called life.
Small fed. Strong states. Strong union. More productive, better life, people actually happy.
jdizzy
Member
So we should have some degree of socialism?
I would agree that government can become to big and is sometimes inefficient but America would not have become what it is with the roll the government has played. People are starting to forget the government is "We the People". And yes the list could have been longer, thats kind of proves my point America can not exist with out some socialism.
Unions are democracy in the work place. Its a voice for the workers. What does that have to do with being able to lay people off or firing. Would we have record unemployment if the "Unions" where not letting people get laid off?
You also say strong states. A state is a governing entity and you want it to play a bigger role? You kind of lost me on that one
Sidewinder73
Active Member
Unfortunately there was a time and place for unions. Do the workers really need a union in order to have a voice? In this day and age unions allow our employees work at a bare minimum pace while getting fat. It's also very difficult to displace a union worker with a more productive employee. I worked in a union shop and I can speak first hand with regards to the many layers of dependency and lack of motivation created by unions. Every employed person has rights. Just take a look at your wall at work. The law also says that these rights should be posted in the place of employment.
And layoffs are far different than being fired. If there is no money, then people are laid off, nothing a union can argue. However, if a union worker is unproductive, then it may take many years of documenting evidence in order to justify a union worker get fired. And then there is all the hate you get from the union stewards and workers on the floor. Let me tell you, it's like you just messed with the mob. They'll make your life hell.
doobnVA
Well-Known Member
Do American citizens really need voting rights in order to have a voice?
jdizzy
Member
So i think, form you first sentence, you could agree in an ideal world Unions have there place, but the reality is they are broken. If not let me know, but basing on that, why dont we talk about union reform then. I will admit the are too powerful in some senses, but I do believe the worker deserve a voice and forum where the can speak up without fear of losing there job. I have worked non-union jobs where I wish I could have spoke up at the wrong of the company. Getting rid of them is too drastic. Ideally there a good thing.
Just like we cant sensor anyone from saying what they want, I think it should apply to the work place. We cant be a democracy, buy prohibiting it.
Also I think were kind of straying. Unions are not the government. But its all good
Johnnyorganic
Well-Known Member
Army - ConstitutionalSo in this Libertarian paradise which of these socialist programs would not you have:
Army
Navy
Marines
Police department
Fire department
Public schools
FDA
DOT/ public roads
Judges/ court houses
Department of Health
FCC
Department of Agriculture
Coast Guard
Department of Treasury
Air Force
Social Security
FDIC deposits
Ambulances/ EMTs
Medicare
IRS
Unemployment Insurance
Public parks
Disability Insurance
FBI
CIA
Homeland security
FAA
TSA
And yes I know Somalis has it own libertarian "Navy"
Navy - Constitutional
Marines - Constitutional
Police department - State/Local
Fire department - State/Local
Public schools - State/Local
FDA - No
DOT/ public roads - Constitutional
Judges/ court houses - Constitutional
Department of Health - State/Local
FCC - No
Department of Agriculture - Hell No
Coast Guard - Constitutional
Department of Treasury - Constitutional
Air Force - Constitutional
Social Security - No
FDIC deposits - Probably not
Ambulances/ EMTs - State/Local
Medicare - No
IRS - Depends on your view of the validity of the 16th Amendment. I say no.
Unemployment Insurance - State/Local
Public parks - State/Local
Disability Insurance - State/Local
FBI - Constitutional
CIA - Constitutional
Homeland security - Constitutional
FAA - Constitutional
TSA - Constitutional
Sidewinder73
Active Member
Yes, I think unions could be effective like they once were and reform would be a start, but my point is that we have rights in place beyond any union. Also, in most private shops you'll find some sort of employee association, which is run by the employees. What a concept... ...Employees representing themselves.
Sidewinder73
Active Member
You're missing the point. Worker rights are in place at the federal and state level. Ever hear of a lawyer? Maybe if you think you have been wrongfully let go you could hire one of these. Know your rights and take accountability for yourself. If you are a hard worker, then you will have no problems.
CrackerJax
New Member
What all of the socialist programs tell you is that the government does a lousy job of being involved with or being a business.
Anytime you separate the bottom line with accountability and sound remedy, it spells disaster. The longer it continues, the worse the damage.
The need for unions is long gone. Back in the day a worker had a difficult time having his/her voice heard. Not so today.....lawyers are drumming business up on every medium of advertising.
Having a govt. employee unionized is the height of hypocrisy. Who's the enemy? The govt? Unions automatically create adversarial positions.
Anytime you separate the bottom line with accountability and sound remedy, it spells disaster. The longer it continues, the worse the damage.
The need for unions is long gone. Back in the day a worker had a difficult time having his/her voice heard. Not so today.....lawyers are drumming business up on every medium of advertising.
Having a govt. employee unionized is the height of hypocrisy. Who's the enemy? The govt? Unions automatically create adversarial positions.
Rob Roy
Well-Known Member
In my libertarian paradise you could have any you and your friends want. You want it and use it, you pay for it. No problem from me. The problem appears to be when I simply ask not to participate, your type insists that isn't an option. That doesn't sound like liberty to me.So in this Libertarian paradise which of these socialist programs would not you have:
Army
Navy
Marines
Police department
Fire department
Public schools
FDA
DOT/ public roads
Judges/ court houses
Department of Health
FCC
Department of Agriculture
Coast Guard
Department of Treasury
Air Force
Social Security
FDIC deposits
Ambulances/ EMTs
Medicare
IRS
Unemployment Insurance
Public parks
Disability Insurance
FBI
CIA
Homeland security
FAA
TSA
And yes I know Somalis has it own libertarian "Navy"
Which one of these ahem "essential services" that government so inefficiently fills if I DIDN'T support would you send men with guns to extort money from me? What if I said I'd prefer not to participate in the paying for it or the using of it? What then? Why do you advocate violence and extortion of other people to pay for your ideals?
Oh yeah, your list..."homeland security" now there is a fucking total waste!
doobnVA
Well-Known Member
You're assuming that corporations hold "hard work" in a higher regard than "high profits". This is simply false. Americans work hard, so why are jobs being shipped overseas? Because the labor is cheap and there are no unions to hold the corporations accountable, that's why. This means that they can increase their profits by outsourcing jobs. It has nothing to do with "hard work".
Unions are democratic organizations of workers. There is strength in numbers, this is indisputable. An individual has far less influence than a large group, even if that individual can seek recourse through the legal system. It's much more effective to organize a group than to force each individual to seek their own recourse.
Political parties are far more influential than one single, solitary citizen, are they not?
You asked if workers needed unions in order to have a voice. The answer to that is a resounding YES. Just as the American people need voting rights and the freedom to assemble in order to have a political voice in our nation.
doobnVA
Well-Known Member
So you don't participate in any of the aforementioned services? None at all?
Johnnyorganic
Well-Known Member
What are your thoughts on that statement, Doob?
Not being a wise-ass. I am really curious.
Rob Roy
Well-Known Member
Let's not assume we agree that the bureaucracies on the aforementioned list are "services".
A service provider in a free society does not exist on extorted funds. A service provider offers a service, if it is desired by the consumer, they purchase the service using their discretion.
Some of these "services" on this list might be desirable to some people. If they are I'll never stand in the way of people having them if they want them.
As long as they don't use force to make me or others participate unwillingly, but YOU would.
Why do you insist that people who do not desire or use these "services" be made to pay for them? Sure sounds like you think you'd be better at making my choices for me than I could.
Concerning which of these services I use, roads now and then. Gas tax, property tax MORE than covers that.
Fire Dept? We have a volunteer dept.
You probably wouldn't understand.
Military? Check your constitution, the military is largely illegal.
Homeland Security ? Fucking waste.
Not even worth refuting.
Police? Peace officers are okay. I've met one or two. Most police are not peace officers though and a large part of their work involves harming innocent
people.
Bottom line of our disgreement seems to be I advocate for personal liberty and responsibility. I don't think you do.
Sidewinder73
Active Member
You're missing my point once again. We should never be so dependent on anyone or anything. We need to take accountability for ourselves. I've been laid off before, but I figured out way to make it and find a new job. Stop blaming everyone and use that energy to find a new job or start your own business.
CrackerJax
New Member
Unions no longer hold corps accountable. It's more of a hostage scenario today.
There are legions of lawyers just waiting for you to call them with a work grievance..... things have changed. Unions are becoming obsolete. They are keeping us less competitive.
There are legions of lawyers just waiting for you to call them with a work grievance..... things have changed. Unions are becoming obsolete. They are keeping us less competitive.
Army (National guard, states, nationalize parts for training and deployment)
Navy (Constitutional)
Marines (Constitutional)
Police department (Local)
Fire department (Local)
Public schools (Local/state)
FDA (Privatize)
DOT/ public roads (State/local)
Judges/ court houses (constitutional)
Department of Health (unconstitutional, privatize)
FCC (unconstitutional)
Department of Agriculture (unconstitutional)
Coast Guard (Constitutional)
Department of Treasury (Constitutional, BATF is treasury dept. its unconstitutional IMO)
Air Force (States, Air National Guard see army)
Social Security (Voluntary un-constitutional)
FDIC deposits (Un-constitutional)
Ambulances/ EMTs (Local/State)
Medicare (Unconstitutional, States)
IRS (Arguably Un-Constitutional)
Unemployment Insurance (States, Voluntary)
Public parks (States)
Disability Insurance (States, Voluntary)
FBI (Only for interstate crime bank robbery and kidnapping.)
CIA (Constitutional sadly)
Homeland security (Un-constitutional, Federal Gov. has very little police powers)
FAA (Privatize)
TSA (Privatize)
This isn't just about what we have and we should not have.
Its also about who should have it.
The Feds are furthest from the people
and should have the least to do with their affairs.
The Feds have strick limits placed on them by the constitution.
They have very few police powers.
I think they should be bound to those roles given them in the constitution.
BATF, FBI, DEA, Secret Sevice, any other alphabet soup police agency
should be downsized and rolled into the Federal Marshall service.
Shit-can Homeland security altogether to much bureaucracy to be effective.
TSA is the airlines job to secure their airports and planes not the governments.
Navy (Constitutional)
Marines (Constitutional)
Police department (Local)
Fire department (Local)
Public schools (Local/state)
FDA (Privatize)
DOT/ public roads (State/local)
Judges/ court houses (constitutional)
Department of Health (unconstitutional, privatize)
FCC (unconstitutional)
Department of Agriculture (unconstitutional)
Coast Guard (Constitutional)
Department of Treasury (Constitutional, BATF is treasury dept. its unconstitutional IMO)
Air Force (States, Air National Guard see army)
Social Security (Voluntary un-constitutional)
FDIC deposits (Un-constitutional)
Ambulances/ EMTs (Local/State)
Medicare (Unconstitutional, States)
IRS (Arguably Un-Constitutional)
Unemployment Insurance (States, Voluntary)
Public parks (States)
Disability Insurance (States, Voluntary)
FBI (Only for interstate crime bank robbery and kidnapping.)
CIA (Constitutional sadly)
Homeland security (Un-constitutional, Federal Gov. has very little police powers)
FAA (Privatize)
TSA (Privatize)
This isn't just about what we have and we should not have.
Its also about who should have it.
The Feds are furthest from the people
and should have the least to do with their affairs.
The Feds have strick limits placed on them by the constitution.
They have very few police powers.
I think they should be bound to those roles given them in the constitution.
BATF, FBI, DEA, Secret Sevice, any other alphabet soup police agency
should be downsized and rolled into the Federal Marshall service.
Shit-can Homeland security altogether to much bureaucracy to be effective.
TSA is the airlines job to secure their airports and planes not the governments.