Schwaggy P's Random Stuff

Nizza

Nizza

Well-Known Member
Frank Nitty said:
This has never happened before for me... I soak my seeds for 24hrs then place them on paper towels like im supposed to,but the seeds never popped... I dont know how old the seeds are cause they were gifted to me,but they were all bodhi crosses except for one... Even a couple of MEPHISTO'S also... What could i be doing wrong??? Its crazy cause I have others that have popped and are up and running... Go figure... Im trying to do an outdoor grow but if the seeds don't pop in time,I'll be out of time!!!
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just wondering possibly the seeds werent winterized I have read about winterizing dramatically improving seed success rates but I think there are several other factors to consider as well
 
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Psychonautic83

Well-Known Member
Schwaggy P said:
It sounds more complicated than it is.

If you have a female plant you like and want in seed form, cross her to some male. Take those babies that are now getting 50% of the female and cross it to mom again and get babies that are now 75% of the female’s genes. You just keep crossing back to the female until you get plants that are like the female you were looking to get in seed form.
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How do you think this works with gene recombinations regarding flowering time and sativa percentage.

Say I cross 100 sativa x 100 indica which have 12 and 8 week flower times, respectively.

And get F1, 50/50 with 10 week flower time. Crossing F1 back with the sativa parent, would I get 75/25 sativa Dom with 11 week flowering time?

Edit: I'm trying to make sure I've got all this straight :)
 
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althor

Well-Known Member
Psychonautic83 said:
How do you think this works with gene recombinations regarding flowering time and sativa percentage.

Say I cross 100 sativa x 100 indica which have 12 and 8 week flower times, respectively.

And get F1, 50/50 with 10 week flower time. Crossing F1 back with the sativa parent, would I get 75/25 sativa Dom with 11 week flowering time?

Edit: I'm trying to make sure I've got all this straight :)
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That is what the math would tell you. Phenotypes would vary though so you would get some leaning in each direction. So then you choose the phenotypes that are the most desirable to you and breed them.
 
Schwaggy P

Schwaggy P

Well-Known Member
Psychonautic83 said:
How do you think this works with gene recombinations regarding flowering time and sativa percentage.

Say I cross 100 sativa x 100 indica which have 12 and 8 week flower times, respectively.

And get F1, 50/50 with 10 week flower time. Crossing F1 back with the sativa parent, would I get 75/25 sativa Dom with 11 week flowering time?

Edit: I'm trying to make sure I've got all this straight :)
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Short Answer:
Yes, you would get an increasing ratio of sativa expressions as you continue to backcross to the sativa. Recombination dynamics and how they relate to a specific trait (flowering time), is dependent on whether or not the alleles that influence this trait are subject to cross over. Also, the simple model assumes the alleles are independently assorted and not linked. If flowering time genetic material suffers recombination, then you will get offspring that don’t follow the assumed ratios you expect from the simple Punnett Square model of anchored alleles.

Long Answer:
To better understand how recombination would nuance our model, we would have to also take into account the main assumption in our Mendelian model, independent assortment. This concept embodies the assumption that every allele pair separates independently during gamete formation. For example, let’s assume our female is short/quick flower and our male is tall/long flower. We could assume an even contribution of each possible trait in the formation of gametes.

Independent assortment would assume that his tall height is not affected by his long flower time and these traits can be treated as two independent probable expressions that can be observed in progeny with an even distribution. This means that during meiosis, the gametes (pollen grains in the case of our male) could split and create evenly distributed genotypes with 25% distribution among them. The progeny when combined with mother gametes, would show recombinant genes due to independent assortment combinations.

What would happen if these two traits are actually located on the same chromosome and thus are linked such that they cannot “pass” independently of one another? In this case, our male with alleles that are linked such that all tall plants are also long flowering [AB] and all short plants are fast flowering [ab], could only create these two possible gametes to create new offspring. This linkage actually makes the Punnett Square easier to deal with, as we do not have to evaluate every possible combination since we are limited in the pairings.

So now that we understand that some traits could be linked on the same chromosome and do not necessarily exhibit [A1]independent assortment, we can see how recombination can further nuance this process. I assume the recombination you are asking about is the crossover recombination of linked traits as this provides a source of uncertainty.

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The process here is meiosis. Meiosis is a cell division process whereby the genetic contribution of a parent is “prepared” readying a gamete, or half of total genetic information for one new organism. The two halves of the parents will create one whole offspring during sexual reproduction.

You can see the recombination of the red/blue segments of the chromosomes that will produce recombinant gametes. When looking at the last column of gametes, realize that this means that the male pollen will have some ratio of these contributing genotypes. So for instance, each grain of pollen would have EITHER (AB) or (Ab) or (aB) or (ab). What percentage of pollen grains has either arrangement will depend on the recombination frequency. The frequency of this phenomenon is not set in stone for every instance, but you can use the results of your cross to attempt to establish this frequency.

Let’s assume you have a 20% recombination frequency. You would have pollen grains that exhibit 80% of parent genotypes (AB) and (ab). Assuming these occur with even distribution, 40% of pollen grains will have (AB) and 40% of pollen grains will have (ab). Now the recombinant possibilities are (Ab) and (aB) occurring with 20% frequency. Again, assuming even distribution, that means 10% of pollen grains have (Ab) and 10% have (aB). This would mean that the Punnett Square assumption of even distribution of all possible gamete permutations is no longer valid since we clearly have differing abundance of the possible genetic contributions owing to linked trait recombination frequency.

The assumptions of the independent assortment model (the original model that sparked your question) would assume the increased genetic contribution from the plant that is being backcrossed in a predictable ever-converging manner. This increase does not take into account any recombinant dynamic or linked traits, but is a solid start that can serve as a guide. It is possible to calculate the recombination frequency for further work by comparing the expected phenotype distribution and the observed distribution using some statistical tools. Either way, the at home breeder can still benefit from the more simplistic models and working the statistical probabilities in their favor through understanding, careful observation, and benchmarking parent plants to establish genotype for a few traits.
 
Schwaggy P

Schwaggy P

Well-Known Member
Frank Nitty said:
View attachment 4344962 Look what I found!!! From all the way across the pond!!! Now I'm really excited!!!
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Those should be great. I did not make those, they were made by Nu-Be and distributed as Useful Seeds freebies.
Nu-Be said:
Grats everybody else who picked up those Dank Sinatra F2. I wanted to let you know a couple things about them. They were open pollinated, 4 guys and 3 girls, in organic soil under COB LEDs. All four guys ended up being frosty, but the two boys in back were _extra_ frosty from the get-go.
View attachment 4194113

My objective in making these was genetic preservation for the community of one of bodhi's lost beauties. More than a few old heads say this one is in their top 5 for potency and strong medicinal effects.
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DS is a relatively light feeder who doesn't need a lot of N. She's not slow, but since she's a indica, she grows squat and bushy. She likes light defoliation and a lot of airflow because her buds are extremely dense, but don't strip her down or you'll stunt her growth.
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Although I took these ladies to day 70 to ensure the beans ripened, some phenos will be ready at 8 weeks.
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As you might expect, these ladies smell dank. They're not a loud, Loud, LOUD!!! strain, but you can expect berry, mint and menthol earthy tones, with the occasional lime-leaner.
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In the treasure chest of open pollinated F2, anything's possible, as shown by @torontoke finding great variation in his phenos, with an outlier cherry leaner with sativa-ish leaves. Check out his journal - he's got a few of these F2 in their 3rd and 4th week of flowering, and they're looking great!

https://www.rollitup.org/t/shootin-fer-mids-if-im-lucky.957103/

Keep an eye on that guy because he just finished some Landos Stash F2 that might get spread around these here parts in the future. ;)
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Psychonautic83

Well-Known Member
Thanks for the detailed reply! I read the cannabis breeders Bible and principles of plant genetics and breeding earlier this year. (Wish I could find principles of plant breeding for free..)

For now I'm looking to make S1's of genetics I like in order to get close without continually buying seeds or keeping mom's.

I'm interested in shorter flowering sativa dominate strains :)

I got off my ass and stopped on the way home from work for distilled. Remade my STS and sprayed again today. Better not to leave things to chance. :joint: Edit: I really fragged the bitch today with it.
 
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althor

Well-Known Member
Psychonautic83 said:
Thanks for the detailed reply! I read the cannabis breeders Bible and principles of plant genetics and breeding earlier this year. (Wish I could find principles of plant breeding for free..)

For now I'm looking to make S1's of genetics I like in order to get close without continually buying seeds or keeping mom's.

I'm interested in shorter flowering sativa dominate strains :)

I got off my ass and stopped on the way home from work for distilled. Remade my STS and sprayed again today. Better not to leave things to chance. :joint:
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You aren't the Lone Ranger in that regards. I would say a large chunk of the cannabis community is looking for that shorter flowering sativa dominate strain. Of course there are plenty out there, but anytime you start adding indica to shorten the time it changes most of the plant as well, so getting that really nice sativa buzz with the short flowering times becomes pretty elusive.
 
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Psychonautic83

Well-Known Member
althor said:
You aren't the Lone Ranger in that regards. I would say a large chunk of the cannabis community is looking for that shorter flowering sativa dominate strain. Of course there are plenty out there, but anytime you start adding indica to shorten the time it changes most of the plant as well, so getting that really nice sativa buzz with the short flowering times becomes pretty elusive.
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Well, to be honest I was creating a hypothetical scenario with easy numbers also for my general understanding. I was thinking of trying to find a good hybrid with a sativa kind of buzz.

I'm currently pheno hunting a 5 pack (3 females) of Subcools Vortex. I plan to cross that with Ace golden tiger, golden tiger being the female pollen donor and see what happens :)

I hope I'm not cluttering up your thread here :)
 
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P

Psychonautic83

Well-Known Member
My spray seems to be working based on the lack of pistils at 2.5 weeks compared to it's clone sister. How long do you normally wait for pollen sacs to show up?
 
Schwaggy P

Schwaggy P

Well-Known Member
Psychonautic83 said:
My spray seems to be working based on the lack of pistils at 2.5 weeks compared to it's clone sister. How long do you normally wait for pollen sacs to show up?
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I usually see the pollen sacs coming in around 2-3 weeks after flip, then expect them to start opening up about 2 weeks later. Try to scope the nodes and see if you can spot the sacs beginning to form.
 
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Psychonautic83

Well-Known Member
Thanks for all your help, seed making is all new to me.
Also, I started going through from the beginning. I'm glad I found that pollen extractor you posted before I bought a bubble washing machine and stuff (I was about to pull the trigger) It's an affordable kief maker!! Going to order this week :cool: exactly what I was looking for!!!
 
Schwaggy P

Schwaggy P

Well-Known Member
Psychonautic83 said:
Thanks for all your help, seed making is all new to me.
Also, I started going through from the beginning. I'm glad I found that pollen extractor you posted before I bought a bubble washing machine and stuff (I was about to pull the trigger) It's an affordable kief maker!! Going to order this week :cool: exactly what I was looking for!!!
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You're welcome. Good luck with the extractor, I enjoy it.
 
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