SCOTTYBALLS Tribute Grow! Pineapple Express 400w Scrog Waterfarm

kriznarf

kriznarf

Active Member
xgiovanni03x said:
nice stuff man im also starting to grow auto's. was thinking about scrog but wasnt sure but after sum gj with ppl using them i got to say it can be really impressive.
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I'd love to hear a report on scrogging some autos. I hear it's difficult. Not being able to control when flowering begins makes a traditional scrog strategy into a tricky endeavor. With a photoperiod plant, you can flip to 12/12 and start flowering when you feel that a target proportion of your screen is filled (probably 1/5 if hydro, 1/3 if soil.) Training your plant into the screen is best done during the stretch that begins after flipping to 12/12, or when you believe flowering has begun if you're growing autos. The signs that the shift has occurred might be tough to recognize early on (with autos) and you might start that training a little late. Either way, train your plants. Train the fuck out of them (gently.) If you can promote a more even canopy, you'll going to see more bulked out tops.
 
kriznarf

kriznarf

Active Member
corvetteguy said:
Hello Kriz I have been watching alot of these waterfarm grows, and I am interested in trying it myself. If you don't mind I have a couple questions for you. First I was wondering how difficult a waterfarm would be to maintain compared to other forms of hydro such as hempy, dwc, flood and drain, ect.? And secondly how much greater do you think your average yield would be with the waterfarm as opposed to the same set up with soil? I realy like your set up and I am considering doing somthing similar with 800 watts in a 3ft x 5ft closet, but I am not sure that I know enough about it yet. Thank you for taking the time to share your grow. Good luck and happy growing.
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Thanks for the encouragement! I haven't grown in hempy myself, but I have built a couple DWC kits. They're great and could be comparable to a waterfarm (depending on how well they're designed,) but in the end I would would say that the waterfarm has the edge. I'm not sure that I have enough experience with soil or hydro growing to make a specific estimate regarding a greater yield with hydro, but I will say that you're going to see faster growth in hydro, which may result in a higher yield as well. If you've never done either, I would recommend going with soil for your first grow. It's more forgiving and you can still get a great yield if you're LST'ing and/or scrogging.

In the space you're thinking about, I believe that 2-4 plants, scrogged under two 400's would be great (2 plants if hydro, maybe 4 if soil.) If you'd really like to try hydro, go with DWC's or waterfarms. If you *really* want to do 4 plants in a hydro setup *and* you're feeling crafty, I'd highly suggest looking into RDWC and undercurrent systems. Hobgoblit (he's in here somewhere!) has an awesome DIY undercurrent setup that I highly recommend checking out.

Flood & drain (generally better for a higher number of smaller plants or a sog) and Ebb & Flow systems are probably best for larger grows. That said, if plant limits aren't your concern, looking into a sog strategy is worth your time. Sog grows are considered to be the most efficient (in terms of how often you're cropping and the weight you're pulling per watt,) but they're also very work intensive.
 
kriznarf

kriznarf

Active Member
Captain Planet said:
awesometo see to many prople using the screen!i have 1 pineapple bean i got for free, a little scepticle of the bud. i got sum once and it wasnt that great, but then again i didnt grow it ;) lol jk sorry that sounds cocky
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Yeah, I'm loving the scrog. I probably won't grow without some sort of trellis and/or screen ever again.

Regarding the Pineapple Express: You'll be eating those words when you see my hot fire, ha!
 
kriznarf

kriznarf

Active Member
mr2shim, Dayzt,

Thanks for keeping the thread going while I was on a little vacation. I'd rep you both if I could!
 
kriznarf

kriznarf

Active Member
Day 10 (12/12) or 44 (total)

EC 1.9 (950 ppm)

Been a little while! Got in yesterday after a long weekend away and couldn't believe the new growth. I hadn't been away from her for more than a single day since she sprouted, so this was a real exercise in patience.

Left her in the caring hands of the whitest Hawaiian I know. He did a solid job training her out in my absence. Similar to Scotty's experience, that main stalk just didn't want to bend and split on my buddy. Doesn't seem to be much of an issue, however, as it basically slowed the growth of the main top and is helping keep everything in line. Perhaps having an effect similar to supercropping?

She's easily drinking over a gallon a day. I'm keeping her at about 950 ppm. And as you can see, that screen is almost full. I'm thinking a few more days of training, and it's time to let her grow. Started clipping the undergrowth, too. Only about two of those lower fan leaves each day.

Cheers
 

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mr2shim

mr2shim

Well-Known Member
That is looking really great. The main stem just doesn't like to bend does it? Mine snapped on me too. How far away is your screen from the waterfarm? I like your setup, very clean. Does the light get hot since it's not air cooled?
 
kriznarf

kriznarf

Active Member
mr2shim said:
That is looking really great. The main stem just doesn't like to bend does it? Mine snapped on me too. How far away is your screen from the waterfarm? I like your setup, very clean. Does the light get hot since it's not air cooled?
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Much thanks man. And yeah, that main stem just doesn't like to bend. Lesson learned, a little pre-LST before scrog is a great idea.

I believe that the screen is about 10.5 inches from the top of the waterfarm, but it may have slipped down a bit. I'll remeasure tonight.

The light doesn't get too hot. When the MH bulb was up, it was more of an issue, but the HPS doesn't run as hot. I keep one of my clip-on fans trained on the light and that certainly helps to keep temps in a reasonable range. Also, my tent is actually located in a closet that's off a balcony, which means that it's a semi-outdoor tent grow. I have my timer set so that the lights are turning on at 5pm, thus actually keeping the tent warm (about 72-76 F) during the cooler evenings. Temps slip to about 62-65 F when the lights are off (during the actual day,) which seems like a perfect range. I do have a reflector that I could use to air-cool the light. That's how I had my system rigged for my previous grow (see 1st post,) but I took a little of Scotty's advice and I'm trying the open reflector in order to put once less barrier between the light and the plant. Light being the limiting factor in most indoor grows, I'm trying to push for every last lumen that I can get.
 
AWnox

AWnox

Active Member
Kriznarf, If I may ask; is the order in which you have your setup: Filter --> Exhaust Fan --> Muffler ? or Muffler -->Exhaust Fan-->Filter? I can't seem to make them out in your most recent pics. Looks very organized though very professional, props for that.
 
kriznarf

kriznarf

Active Member
AWnox said:
Kriznarf, If I may ask; is the order in which you have your setup: Filter --> Exhaust Fan --> Muffler ? or Muffler -->Exhaust Fan-->Filter? I can't seem to make them out in your most recent pics. Looks very organized though very professional, props for that.
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Thanks again. The order of my system is Filter > Exhaust Fan > Muffler. If you were adding a light, it would be Filter > Light > Exhaust Fan > Muffler. Couple things: I'm not sure how much the relatively small mufflers (like mine) really help to reduce noise in a system of this size. At this level, most of the noise comes from the actual fan itself, rather than from the air moving through the ducting, which is what the muffler serves to dampen. Also, looking back at that pic, it looks like it's probably time to wash my pre-filter. I've been told that washing your pre-filter (the white sock around the filter) every three months will help to extend the life of your filter significantly.
 
ironheadxl

ironheadxl

Well-Known Member
Kriznarf do you see what appears to be hairs on the stalks? Maybe trich hairs? Mine is loaded with them and stink like a plant in flower, so much so that when I cam home today the whole house had a PE scent. I need glasses so it's hard for me to focus in and truly describe them sorry. also yeah main stalk just does not want to play ball.
 
mr2shim

mr2shim

Well-Known Member
ironheadxl said:
Kriznarf do you see what appears to be hairs on the stalks? Maybe trich hairs? Mine is loaded with them and stink like a plant in flower, so much so that when I cam home today the whole house had a PE scent. I need glasses so it's hard for me to focus in and truly describe them sorry. also yeah main stalk just does not want to play ball.
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You might want to invest in a carbon filter if your whole house is smelling.
 
ironheadxl

ironheadxl

Well-Known Member
yeah I know it Mr2shim for sure flipped the lights this morning so it's a gonna be a rocking in a day or two, going to have to go home made because the budget is tight this year bro.
 
kriznarf

kriznarf

Active Member
ironheadxl said:
Kriznarf do you see what appears to be hairs on the stalks? Maybe trich hairs? Mine is loaded with them and stink like a plant in flower, so much so that when I cam home today the whole house had a PE scent. I need glasses so it's hard for me to focus in and truly describe them sorry. also yeah main stalk just does not want to play ball.
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Pretty sure that you're talking about your first pistils, which are basically the female sex organs of the plant. You could think of them as pollen catchers. They're much bigger than trichomes, or the "crystals" as most people think of them. The fact that you're seeing them is a good thing. It means that your girl is sexually mature and ready to flower. I just noticed them on my PE for the first time last night, actually.

And mr2shim is right, you should seriously look into some smell control if it's already a problem after just having flipped to 12/12. It's going to get way worse. I hear that PE is a fragrant strain! Pretty sure there is a good thread on RIU about DIY carbon filters. Probably worth searching for in your situation.
 
ironheadxl

ironheadxl

Well-Known Member
well yeah pistils I know but this thing is covered in hairs all along the stalk, I well try to get a pic.

BTW note the sig I haz a journal beeechez. so lame lol but there it is. Post any damned advice you can 'cause homie be needing it.
 
jaydub360

jaydub360

Active Member
kriznarf said:
I'd love to hear a report on scrogging some autos. I hear it's difficult. Not being able to control when flowering begins makes a traditional scrog strategy into a tricky endeavor. With a photoperiod plant, you can flip to 12/12 and start flowering when you feel that a target proportion of your screen is filled (probably 1/5 if hydro, 1/3 if soil.)
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Lookin nice Kriz..subbed. I just received my Afghan Kush Ryder (auto) seeds a couple of days ago, I'm a noob doin a lot of research before I plop down the cash for my setup. Anyway, I like many others have become a big fan of Scottyballs' waterfarm setup and after considering soil for my first grow I have decided to go the hydro route.

My question for you is what would you suggest for a 4 plant system as far as the size of the tent? I also got a free seed from the Attitude, Royal Queen Seeds "Ice" feminized. Should I grow it together with the Afhgan Kush or is it better to grow one strain at a time? I may be overthinking this but would four plants scrogged with 2 different strains be too complicated for a first timer? Should I simplify with maybe only 2 plants, one strain?

Thanks for sharing... between you, Scotty, and others I have gained more knowledge and insight in the last few weeks than I have in the last year that I've been doing research...Much success to you. PEACE
 
AWnox

AWnox

Active Member
Kriznarf why can't you just use the MH from when you put the seedling in the WF? I will be using a 250W and at 2 feet from the WF it doesn't seem to be hot at all , I also have a 6 inch fan blowing horizontally between the light and the WF. Would this work or would you still recommend using cfl for the seedling stage? Just seems as if this was a "real world" scenario if the seed germinated and popped during a very sunny day it would be the same as a MH so why not start out strong and get her used to the light from the beginning? A 400W I would understand more because of the delicate stage she's in with the higher intensity but with a 250W would you still recommend using CFL for the seedlings? The more light the better isn't it?

Edited.: The more I read the more I am confused. The majority of people here on RIU and other sites is that they use CFL or a t5 for early veg but this does not make complete sense to me. It sounds like it's too "pampering" for the plant to start out like that with a soft light. If there is no over heating on the seedling, good ventilation, it's not burning it and the temps are kept within range why not use the MH from the get go? Some people here say to cut down on electricity bills but aren't you going to have to buy a t5 or some CFL's anyway and to only use for a week or two then never again (or until your next grow), so basically the money that your "saving" by not using the MH for the first week or two your spending it on the CFL's and/or t5 so it's basically the same thing. Don't get me wrong I enjoy and am a fan of being thorough but it seems that it's not necessary if/when you can control the temps and the heat released from the MH. I rather have her start her life with as much light as possible to give her the best start possible. Maybe having the light farther as she's in seedling and move it down as she get's stronger?

P.S.: I apologize if I am high jacking your journal friend, just thought I'd ask you seeing your success with the WF's and the people that follow these grows. Thank you.
 
kriznarf

kriznarf

Active Member
jaydub360 said:
Lookin nice Kriz..subbed. I just received my Afghan Kush Ryder (auto) seeds a couple of days ago, I'm a noob doin a lot of research before I plop down the cash for my setup. Anyway, I like many others have become a big fan of Scottyballs' waterfarm setup and after considering soil for my first grow I have decided to go the hydro route.

My question for you is what would you suggest for a 4 plant system as far as the size of the tent? I also got a free seed from the Attitude, Royal Queen Seeds "Ice" feminized. Should I grow it together with the Afhgan Kush or is it better to grow one strain at a time? I may be overthinking this but would four plants scrogged with 2 different strains be too complicated for a first timer? Should I simplify with maybe only 2 plants, one strain?

Thanks for sharing... between you, Scotty, and others I have gained more knowledge and insight in the last few weeks than I have in the last year that I've been doing research...Much success to you. PEACE
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Thanks, jay.

For four plants, I would want at least 4x4, especially if you're thinking about trying to scrog. A 5x5 tent would be best. Also, for four plants in a square space, you're going to want a lot of light, 1000w or two 600w's. If that's more than you were thinking about using, I'd strongly consider two plants under a 600w or two 400w's. I would look into both Dayzt's current grow and Hobgoblit's current grow (they have both commented in this journal.) Dayzt has two plants in waterfarms under a 600w, scrogging, and Hobgoblit has three plants in a 3x3 under a 400w, not scrogged, but in a really cool DIY undercurrent set, which is worth checking out. May give you some ideas.

With regard to growing the two strains together, there are a couple things to consider. They're both indica heavy strains, so that may be reason to hope for relatively even heights among your plants, which is an argument for growing them together. However, the fact that Afghan Kush is an auto and the ICE isn't may be a good reason not to grow them together. The autos are probably going to do best under 20-4 through their entire life cycle, but if the ICE were in there, you'd have to flip to 12-12 at some point, which would certainly cut into the yield on those autos. Perhaps the benefit of having a fourth plant will outweigh any loss in yield related to going 12-12 on the three autos, but you'd need a lot of light to grow four plants for max yield.

Perhaps I'm rambling here, but if it wasn't clear, you can certainly grow your three-four plants in a 3x3 under a 400w, but if you're growing in a space of that size and with that amount of light, it's more efficient to just roll with one-two plants at a time and just scrog. Scorg + autos could be tricky, though, as you clearly read before, ha.
 
kriznarf

kriznarf

Active Member
AWnox said:
Kriznarf why can't you just use the MH from when you put the seedling in the WF? I will be using a 250W and at 2 feet from the WF it doesn't seem to be hot at all , I also have a 6 inch fan blowing horizontally between the light and the WF. Would this work or would you still recommend using cfl for the seedling stage? Just seems as if this was a "real world" scenario if the seed germinated and popped during a very sunny day it would be the same as a MH so why not start out strong and get her used to the light from the beginning? A 400W I would understand more because of the delicate stage she's in with the higher intensity but with a 250W would you still recommend using CFL for the seedlings? The more light the better isn't it?

Edited.: The more I read the more I am confused. The majority of people here on RIU and other sites is that they use CFL or a t5 for early veg but this does not make complete sense to me. It sounds like it's too "pampering" for the plant to start out like that with a soft light. If there is no over heating on the seedling, good ventilation, it's not burning it and the temps are kept within range why not use the MH from the get go? Some people here say to cut down on electricity bills but aren't you going to have to buy a t5 or some CFL's anyway and to only use for a week or two then never again (or until your next grow), so basically the money that your "saving" by not using the MH for the first week or two your spending it on the CFL's and/or t5 so it's basically the same thing. Don't get me wrong I enjoy and am a fan of being thorough but it seems that it's not necessary if/when you can control the temps and the heat released from the MH. I rather have her start her life with as much light as possible to give her the best start possible. Maybe having the light farther as she's in seedling and move it down as she get's stronger?

P.S.: I apologize if I am high jacking your journal friend, just thought I'd ask you seeing your success with the WF's and the people that follow these grows. Thank you.
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My digi-ballast is 400w only. A 400w MH is too much for a seedling. If the lamp were placed up high, I'm sure you could counter the light's intensity to a certain degree, but it just makes more sense to go with CFL's or a T5/T8 kit (electricity, heat, etc.) I'd rather use a 400w MH through the bulk of my veg than a 250w, so it doesn't really make sense for me to have a second ballast and another bulb, when a CFL/T5/T8 kit is cheaper.

I've read that 250w MH is great for early plant growth, but they can still put out some heat. A little seedling doesn't really need quite that much light, either. Your assumption that in nature a seedling would be exposed to the full brunt of the sun is probably less likely than you'd think. Not many plants grow solitary in wide open spaces. There are generally other plants around them, bigger plants, when you consider our seedling. These plants provide some shade early on, which results in the seedling stretching and growing tall enough to find it's place in the canopy (where the blood bath begins!)

And no apologies needed. You're totally welcome to ask questions here.
 
AWnox

AWnox

Active Member
kriznarf said:
My digi-ballast is 400w only. A 400w MH is too much for a seedling. If the lamp were placed up high, I'm sure you could counter the light's intensity to a certain degree, but it just makes more sense to go with CFL's or a T5/T8 kit (electricity, heat, etc.) I'd rather use a 400w MH through the bulk of my veg than a 250w, so it doesn't really make sense for me to have a second ballast and another bulb, when a CFL/T5/T8 kit is cheaper.

I've read that 250w MH is great for early plant growth, but they can still put out some heat. A little seedling doesn't really need quite that much light, either. Your assumption that in nature a seedling would be exposed to the full brunt of the sun is probably less likely than you'd think. Not many plants grow in solitary spaces. There are generally other plants around them, bigger plants, when you consider our seedling. These plants provide some shade early on, which results in the seedling stretching and growing tall to find it's place in the canopy (where the blood bath begins!)
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Thanks for your reply Kriznarf. About your reply; I am using the 250W throughout the entire grow, I wasn't even considering another light, I have a smaller space than yours (17''x26''x60'') so I figured I needed a less intense light than the 400W, it just seemed like an overkill for my space. I agree with your point about other vegetation being less likely to be grown in isolated areas, although you can't argue that it does occur and I'm sure they do just as fine as the ones that pop out in a shade. My query was about the light itself, the intensity rather. Considering that there's sufficient cool wind blowing across it and the heat on the seedling itself is minimal would you say it would be safe and beneficial to start her off with the 250W if I did not want to use a CFL or a t5 or anything else? I know I am probably over thinking this and nature will probably do it's thing without any special techniques or knowledge, just wanted to have some of the pros P.O.V. Thanks for your time and btw your grow looks superb.

+rep
 
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